1. #1
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    Default Five Engines On an initial assignment??

    I was wondering what other counties think of Montgomery County's (md) new SOP's. We now have five engines assigned to a house fire. Now this strikes me as very odd. I thought instead of wasting precious materials (namely our fire engines) We would go from minimum staffing as three to at least four. I understand that they needed more man power, but 5 fire engines?

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    Toledo Fire has the same thing (with variation) 3 engines, 1 for RIT and if there is info in the CAD about anyone being injured then they send and additional engine for "EMS" sector, for a total of 5 plus a truck co , heavy squad and Safety Officer and Battalion Chief.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    You can always turn around or redirect resources you find out you don't need. I would rather get them coming than wait the 4 minutes to get there and find out I need a lot more help.

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    on a single family house fire fairfax county and i believe alrington and alexandria (and the rest of NOVA fire) sends 4 engines, 1 truck, 1 rescue (or a second truck), 1 EMS unit, 2 battalion chiefs, and 2 EMS supervisrors.

    i believe under normal circumstances 1st engine has primary line, 2nd engine has backup line and primary water supply, 3rd engine establishes secondary water supply, addition line and exposure protection as needed, and 4th engine will do RIT.

    so the 5 engine requirement does not seem extreme to me, having only 3 on an engine does not however sit too well with me, i am very much in favor of at least 4 man engine, truck, and rescue companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMChic3
    I was wondering what other counties think...
    Though there are precious few questions that are off-limits, one really has to wonder why anyone might be concerned about "what other counties think".

    Purely in the interest of being helpful,I will suggest that no Fire Department has ever progressed behind a primary concern about what unquantified or unqualified respondents (least of all from another Fire Department) think.

    This issue is a situation that benefits from stakeholders looking in and seeking data, not someone looking over their shoulder for a distant opinion.

    ..and as I'm oft quoted: "Too Little and Too Late are the parents of Disaster"

    That's what I think.

    Stay Safe and Be Well - And Remember That Distraction is Poisonous

    Brian
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFDPSO
    Though there are precious few questions that are off-limits, one really has to wonder why anyone might be concerned about "what other counties think".
    Well LAFDPSO, the people that set up this internet forum where people share opinions thought that it might be helpful, informative and entertaining. One has to wonder about someone berating someone for 3+ paragraphs because they asked a question and then not even bothering to type an answer.

    FMChic3, Every dept has to strike a balance between between minimum apparatus manning and response time.Pols know that the public doesn't notice how many FF's are on a piece, they just want a quick response. The International and local unions usually push for minimum manning per piece for safety reasons. Piece manning is also known to be more efficient at quick suppression and rescue, but it costs money.
    Locally, we send 3 eng, 2 lad 1 rescue company,and 1 district chief to a first alarm. This usually brings about 25 or so FF's to the scene. A "working fire" will add an addl' eng and a "FAST" ladder. (like a RIT).

    Hope this helps.

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    Philly is thus:

    Tactical Box: 2 engines, 2 ladders, 1 Chief
    Box: 4 engines, 2 ladders, 2 chiefs

    When 2 engines and 2 ladders go in service you get a RIT team, ALS medic unit and a SOC company (Heavy Rescue or Squad company, sometimes both). All hands in service gets the before mentioned and a Deputy Chief. Our RIT team is always a ladder company. I would be more concerned about only having 1 ladder than only having 3 engines.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    Yes, 4 or 5 ff's on a truck would be much better than 3. But why complain that 5 engines are going. I would welcome the extra manpower. I think Mont. Co. does a lot of right things, my dad retired from there 2 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFDTruck18
    Tactical Box: 2 engines, 2 ladders, 1 Chief
    Box: 4 engines, 2 ladders, 2 chiefs
    What is the difference between a box and a tactical box?
    -------------------
    "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
    -----------------------------------------------
    Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

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    In Jersey City for smoke or fire gets..
    4 engines-2 trucks-Rescue- 1 Bn Chief. if it's a W/F then a 5th engine-a RIT truck-safety officer with Mask Service Unit(cascade unit)- Deputy Chief.
    1 Captain & 3 FF's on Eng and Trk... 1 Capt and 4 FF's on Rescue.

    Automatic alarm gets 2 E's--1 Trk--Bn.Chief

    Don't forget on the engines the driver is handcuffed to the pump pannel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenNFD1219
    What is the difference between a box and a tactical box?
    Basically the number of calls received and the type of property reported. Typical dwelling, only 1 call reporting smoke or fire gets a tac box. Apartment, building, store, school, hospital, multiple calls reporting smoke or fire gets box assignment.

    Any structure over 6 stories gets hi-rise box which is 4 engines, 3 ladders, 2 chiefs. Additional ladder is assigned lobby control which is basically securing elevators.


    An alarm system gets a single engine.

    Engine has 1 officer and 3 FF counting pump operator
    Ladder has 1 officer and 4 FF
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    3 engines here, 4 if a target hazard like a high-rise. 3rd due is RIG (RIT/FAST). 1 truck (2 if target) 1 squad (heavy rescue) and 1 DC. All engines are ALS so no need for a seperate EMS unit.

    I wouldnt mind 5, but seams like overkill for a SFD.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    Well LAFDPSO, the people that set up this internet forum where people share opinions thought that it might be helpful, informative and entertaining.
    Er, um... OK. Entertaining.

    Stay Safe My Brothers - by focusing on what matters,

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFDPSO
    Er, um... OK. Entertaining.

    Stay Safe My Brothers - by focusing on what matters,

    Brian
    Yes, entertaining--sometimes you ask a question and get an answer, sometimes you get a two-bit philosophy lesson and a clever sig line--twice! Now that's entertainment!

    Stay safe brothers--by knowing a bullshyter when you see one.

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    Talking

    I'm glad everyone finds this disccussion interesting. It was meant to open up a discussion on different ideas and opinions of other firefighters as well as get an insight on other fire departments and their SOP's...
    Last edited by FMChic3; 03-03-2006 at 05:12 PM.

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    5 engines on a typical SFD in the burbs seems a bit excessive. Our still (1st )alarm consists of 2 engines, a truck and upon confirmation of a working fire, a squad. Add a chief or two and an ambulance and that makes for about 20 personnel. Too many people on a fireground can almost be as bad as too few. We will probably be going to an extra truck sometime soon on the intial alarm. If we need more help, we pull a box which is similar to an "all hands" etc.. This brings us another 2 engines and a truck on a regular box and 3 engines and 2 trucks on multi-family /commercial structures. Our regular staffing is 4 to a rig.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    I would think the "how many engines do you send" must be answered with the staffing per engine so you can compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges....... Rarely do we need the pumping capacity of the 4 engines we get on our standard structure fire assignment. But you can bet we need the people riding on them.
    In Lexington, KY, a report of a structure fire gets 4 engine companies (1 of which is one of our trained RIT companies), 2 ladder companies, the rescue company (2 men and a truck), and 1 als ambulance (min 2 paramedics), and the district officer. Minimum staffing on engines, ladders, and the ambulance is 3.

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    Initial assignment

    One engine, 3 people on everything, ambulance if there not busy.... First due area 400 sq miles (Downtown National Historic Landmark District, 2000+ SFD, probably 500 trailers, apartment complexes with up to 180 units....

    Any report of smoke, off the hydrant grid or confirmed fire ALL call for off duty ("potential" for 6 off duty), 6 reserve/residents

    No truck, no RIT...

    Kinda sucks....

    Yes this is career.

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    Default Our initial assignment to FS.

    One Department I work for sends: 2 Engines, 1 Truck and the Duty Chief (all manpower is 4), Ambulance comes from the Army Hospital. Upon confirmation of a working fire, or extended operations needed, 3 additional Engines are requested from mutual-aid Departments and we bring in another Engine/Tender from one of our outlining stations.
    The other Department I work for, it depends on the dispatch levels. During fire season the level is high; which brings us 5 Engines, 1 Water Tender, 1 Ambulance, 1 Squad and the Duty Chief. Unknown staffing on most units, since most units are Paid-Call Companies. During low level times we will dispatch 3 Engines, 1 Ambulance, 1 Squad and the Duty Chief.
    Personally, I would like to see a Truck added to our assignments since there is one right next to our district......... same Department, just not sure why we don' t use it to our advantage.


    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... it just might save your can in an intersection, some time!!!!!!!!!!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    by knowing a bullshyter when you see one.

    Sometimes all you have to do is read to realize who is what.

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    Our minimum staffing at Tulsa is 3/3.

    Residential fire gets 4 engines, 1 ladder and a district chief's car (chief and a driver).

    Commericial fire gets 5/2 and a chief's car.

    Works well here. We're good about turning companies around if they aren't needed, and good about requesting more if we need it.

    What gets me is the assignment is the same if it's a 1000 square-foot house or a 15,000 square foot house. Same for commerical fires. Do we need 5/2 for drive-up hamburger stand?
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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