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  1. #21
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    kfactor,no argument here. A good discussion will have different views and while we may feel differently I respect yours.....I don't think, I know RIT has been successful in my department. Speaking with members of other departments from several states RIT has been effective in their departments too. Maybe RIT hasn't greatly reduced LODD's, but it has helped keep the number from climbing higher than it unfortunately is. If the numbers stay around the same but you know of someone saved how can that not matter?... The major cause of LODD's is heart attack. Even attacks several hours or a day after an incident have been included. These were not counted in the past. How can a RIT team prevent a heart attack??? A team cannot prevent accidents responding or returning. A tean cannot stop a person in midfall from a roof or ladder. Some things are out of our hands. Some things we can prevent. If anyone here goes to FDIC, or Firehouse Expo as I will, sit in on a RIT class or Deputy Chief Robert Cobbs seminar about saving our own. Yes saving a downed FF is very difficult. That's why we have to train for it. k, you don't want to rely on a RIT to get you home to your family but how about other members depending on you to get them home if they get into a jam. It's only us coming in to help us, no one else.
    Last edited by len1582; 03-17-2006 at 10:59 PM.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by islander237
    Couple of weeks ago in a rural firefighting seminar, Larry Davis stated RIT is NOT required for rural firefighting operations - the backup team with a hoseline was all that was needed. According to Davis, RIT is promoted these days simply because "it's fashionable", not useful. I wasn't sure I heard that right, but I taped the seminar and sure enough....that was his position (can I attach audio to a post?)

    So coming from someone with this much experience it was a punch in the stomach to our efforts to develop a County RIT - seeing as all the county Chiefs were in the audience. I'm still a fan of RIT for rural firefighting if set up correctly. But the lingering question is "RIT....fashionable, or Useful?"
    Simply
    RIT is a function that is being used to enhance FF saftey. There is the latest Pod cast from Cheif Salke of FDNY which mentions RIT and FF survival. If you can listen to it. It is tough when your talking about Rural FF Ops and RIT. Where are they going to get the manpower? Through training, protocals can be established which aid the FF on the interior if things get hinkey. At the very least, 2 in and 2 out should be established at every fire. Again, it is designed for the FF on the interior. On that note, there will never be a fire that requires only one line. That first line is designed for suppression operations, the second, for anything else that can happen including as back-up to suppression. That second line can include RIT. Rapid Intervention is not a fashionable function. It is a mandatory function that needs to be established at every fire in which interior operations will take place. The longer you stay in this occupation the more you realize that anything can happen! Lay to the potentional.

  3. #23
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    It's more than a punch in the stomach. It's a slap in the face to all Firefighters. "OK- so now your back up crew now becomes an interior attack crew and they go down, who's there to perform there RIT. Just because he thinks it's fashionable doesn't mean it's wrong. The problem is HE thinks it's fashionable, if he teaches that to his department and they buy it then he's not much of a leader. STAY SAFE.

  4. #24
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    I agree with you 10. A good leader should be open to new ideas especially if it saves our own. I don't see much leadership there. As was stated earlier, if the backup team goes in and gets into a jam, who gets them? That Davis guy needs to open his eyes...and stay away from my department!

  5. #25
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    Question RIT is sounding like Truck Ops

    I am currently going through a RIT and IRIC course. And the one thing that is puzzling me is how much RIT is sounding like Truck Ops. From what the instructor was saying, NFPA says that anyone on the outside can be RIT. Pump-Op, Officer, etc.. The reason being is because Chiefs were ho-humming about tying up resources. So the NFPA said that as long as the people performing RIT could drop what they were doing at any moment and perform IRIC or RIT - they could be RIT.

    Which prings me to my first statement. We were told if we are a RIT crew we are to perform ventilation, remove burglar bars, break windows, etc... That sounds like a truck company to me, less rescuing civilians. What is everyone elses SOG's on RIT and there duties when on standby?
    Last edited by pudders; 03-23-2006 at 04:06 PM.

  6. #26
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    Exclamation

    By the way we were told in class that Pheonix FD did a study and found that it takes 12 RIT members to rescue 1 downed FF... I found that interesting, but can see where that holds true. We even saw some video that really brought that point home, at the end the FF's were drained and devestated and a brother was lost.

    Although at first I wasn't interested in RIT. I do now, I appreciate the training as it helped give me an idea of how to help myself and other brothers/sisters should the need arrive. I still don't agree with two in two out as Pheonix proved it's not enough. But the training I recieved will at least help keep me calm, think clearly, and act quickly.

    Who knew Phisiology and Stressful Conditioned response training would be valuable.

  7. #27
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #28
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    Which prings me to my first statement. We were told if we are a RIT crew we are to perform ventilation, remove burglar bars, break windows, etc... That sounds like a truck company to me, less rescuing civilians. What is everyone elses SOG's on RIT and there duties when on standby?
    As long as you remain within eye or radio contact, there is nothing wrong with going along the outside of a building and removing window bars, forcing doors, and throwing ground ladders. All of these things may help a FF self rescue instead of having to be dragged out. Just dont overcommit yourself in case a mayday does come over the radio. Those window bars you removed and the ladders you threw may make the removal of a downed FF much quicker.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  9. #29
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    Arrow

    I couldn't agree more with you. I am just wondering if if the lines are getting blurred on responsabilities. For example the RIT crew is removing burglar bars from the windows, when they get called to action. Now IC has to redistribute assignments that the RIT crew could not finish.

    Whats worse is what if IC isn't informed that the RIT crew did not finish in all the comotion... That could lead to a bad situation. I guess that is just going to have to be a balancing act.

  10. #30
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    They shouldn't HAVE to work. Thats why I posted what I did on the first page. If you don't have the people to remove bars or throw ladders, but ya have a RIT... your doing it because its fashionable

  11. #31
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Im not saying they HAVE to work. Im saying if they have the opportunity while doing their size up, then by all means, do it.

    What if the FAST or RIT team gets to the scene before the additional truck you called for window bars? As long as they are not overcommitting themselves and can drop what they are doing because of a mayday, then there should be no problem with them helping out. Its not a matter of being "fashionable" as they can still perform the task they were called to the scene for, and may have made their lives easier by throwing that ladder or removing a window bar that can help them get a FF out later on. You dont suggest a member or 2 of your RIT team do a walk around of the building when you get on scene? Well as you are doing that, take a 24' ladder with you! It doesnt slow you down any, and if a mayday is heard, by the time the rest of the team is at the front door, ready to go in, you will be there with them.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  12. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
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    nyc... I agree with all your points. From my experience I have seen many departments run an understaffed first alarm and add a FAST company. The FAST invariably ends up working. My point on fashionable is for the departments that have not addressed the need for simultaneous basic actions and developed a response to provide them. If you can't get a water supply, get 2 lines off, force entry, get at least horizontal vent and search with your first alarm but have a FAST, I think the fashionable term fits because ya have no idea of the basics that REALLY keep guys safe.

  13. #33
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    84...I have to disagree a bit calling a deptartments RIT attepmt fashionable. Many departments are trying to fight fires with low manpower. A department near mine rides with 1 officer and 2 FF's. When we would send mutual aid companies to their fireground we would also send our own RIT. They use a RIT now,but the manpower is still the same. Don't forget 99% of the time the driver is "handcuffed" to the pump pannel especially in the early stages of fireground operations. Even if you don't have enough manpower to do all the basic tasks right away you still need to think of the safety of your own FF's. In my department if a second alarm is transmitted quickly, the FAST truck may get there before most of the second alarm assignment.(RIT is automatically dispatched upon report of W/F). Even though there's alot to be done they still set up as a RIT unless there's an urgent need. Then the second alarm truck is the RIT.
    As far as "working". The RIT crew needs to do a size up of the fire building. If a mayday is sent they have to know how to get to the FF in trouble quickly. By doing outside work, throwing ladders and removing obstacles that can trap a FF, they're seeing and creating secondary means of getting in to assist and out. All while still monitoring the radio. This also frees up other companies to do inside work. In my department, after reporting to the IC with tools the RIT will remove any obstructions that can trap a FF and throw a ground ladder to the fire floor and the floor above unless told not to or the fire is out of reach. They can also change SCBA bottles.
    Last edited by len1582; 03-26-2006 at 03:56 PM.

  14. #34
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    One of the things you need to look at about the LODDs is how many were medical (heart attacks, CVAs), MVCs, brush or wildland fires, vs FFs actually getting lost or being trapped. I've even seen some LODDs where it was a 70 y/o volunteer who had a heart attack while setting up for a picnic or some other function (I'm not bashing vollies - use to be one) but when looking at stats, we need to look at FFs that were actually lost or trapped in an actual fire. Stats can be deceiving.

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    Default I agree. Everyone one scene is part of RIT

    Quote Originally Posted by fdtraining
    A solid RIT program starts with solid fireground basics -- size-up, stretching, searching, venting, etc. -- it also is based on PREVENTING an emergency from happening -- RIT is another tool in the fireground toolbox, it's not a bandaid for our problems but it can be useful as a backup to a backup to a backup -- There's so much basic fire training in RIT training that you can't help but increase your fireground survivability by performing it. How many emergencies have been prevented, or problems solved at the crew or individual level, as a result of the increased training that is currently being done as a result of this so-called "fashionable" fireground funtion?
    I think you are right on the point. The perception of what RIT is will continue to change to the point where fireground tactics incorporate a system that goes beyond size-up and includes an emergency plan that will allow a number of RIT teams to be assembled in a quick and systematic way using the existing personnel on scene.
    An article by James K. Crawford, Pittsburgh Bureau of Fire
    http://www.firefloor.com/RITruleOFthree.htm

    The listed article describes a system that would allow on scene personnel to form RIT teams as needed. The system will only work if the idea of RIT changes to include every active member on scene.

  16. #36
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    In the past several years i have been part of RIT teams on several fires and have watch many different departments RIT teams.The one thing that concerns me is this. How many members does it take to make a safe and effective rescue?
    I mostly see a four man to six man RIT team standing by on most calls.
    Is this enough?

  17. #37
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    Our department conducted a drill similar to the one that the Phoenix department used to determine that 12 people are needed to actually rescue a downed firefighter. Over a number of days we had every crew in the department participate in a simulated firefighter rescue and we generally used 12 people to rescue a downed firefighter. The first four person crew found the firefighter and prepared to remove the firefighter after attaching a quick fill bottle to ensure the firefighter being rescued had a safe air supply. Different crews used different techniques to try and remove the downed ff. Leg straps, manta mat, pulling SCBA straps etc..

    None of the initial RIT teams successfully removed the ff on their own. The second RIT crew was able to relieve the first crew and complete the rescue. The third team was standing by as a RIT crew for the RIT teams.

    The general consensus from the review of these drills showed us that it took some time just to organize a coordinated RIT entry after the initial mayday. The rescue was complicated with the need for a charged line in all of the scenarios and face pieces were blacked out to near zero visibility. The limited visibility made the communication between would-be rescuers quite difficult because it had to be verbal only. Coordinated movement obviously makes moving a 250lb ff easier but that is no easy task when the rescuers can not see eachother.

    This drill was a good wake up call for most members. Having to physically go through the process was extremely helpful because it gives you a real sense of the need for communication and the cumbersome nature of rescuing somebody in the dark. This drill was not a live burn either so the heat was not a factor.

    Fire ground noise was also an issue in the initial stages of deploying the RIT team.
    Last edited by firefloor; 04-28-2006 at 10:28 PM.

  18. #38
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    This is a great post and a great discussion. But I can't escape the comment that a RIT is "it's fashionable", not useful". The fire service evolves every day. New ideas, new innovations, etc. Some works and some don't. Some evolves and some things do not. RIT is still a fairly new concept for some, as we can see on these forums - "department's starting up", etc. But it works. Like was earlier stated, when done correct it is a proactive, knowledgable group of guys doing what they can to prevent bad things from happening and being prepared to mitigate them if they do.

    I strongly disagree with "it's fashionable", not useful". It takes much training and discipline to have a good RIT. Some are not up to the challenge, and there is certainly things to be said about that. But there are MANY excellent teams out there and are ready to do what is necessary to save a brother. These are smart, well trained and disciplined guys.

    I never heard of Larry Davis or the Rural Firefighting Institute. "It's fashionable", not useful". I guess I know why. Are you sure it wasn't "Larry David" from HBO's Curb Your Enthusiasm?

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    The major cause of LODD's is heart attack. Even attacks several hours or a day after an incident have been included. These were not counted in the past. How can a RIT team prevent a heart attack??? A team cannot prevent accidents responding or returning. A tean cannot stop a person in midfall from a roof or ladder. Some things are out of our hands. Some things we can prevent.

    I'd have to agree that saying RIT is only fashionable/not working because LODD numbers haven't changed is misleading. These instances that len1582 brought up show how easily the "numbers" can be skewed.

    I think we all can all relate to guys or crews who view RIT as a crap assignment. And sure you aren't on the nozzle or inside doing a search but alot can be accomplished on the outside. Plus guys on the interior are counting on you, regardless of your motivation or lack there of.

    In my department, RIT can sometimes be assigned to just two people (our pathetic excuse of a "squad" company). According to Phoenix, we're about 10 short if someone goes down. You and I both know that 3-4 more company's are not going to be dispatched to help RIT in case of an emergency. Fortunatly my chief has always said if you don't feel you can cover the people inside, radio for more people and if available he will assign them to RIT.

    Numbers on the fireground don't necessarily mean RIT will be done effectively. Once again len1582 hit the nail on the head. Being proactive is what can mean a save or a LODD. Cutting bars off windows, throwing ladders, pulling boards off windows, forcing doors for a secondary means of egress just to name a few. Taking the time to do all (or even one) of these AFTER a MAYDAY may be too late.

  20. #40
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by islander237
    Couple of weeks ago in a rural firefighting seminar, Larry Davis stated RIT is NOT required for rural firefighting operations - the backup team with a hoseline was all that was needed. According to Davis, RIT is promoted these days simply because "it's fashionable", not useful.
    He's wrong and I've got four guys on my shift who could tell him so from direct experience.

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