Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 52
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    20

    Default RIT: Fashionable or Useful?

    Couple of weeks ago in a rural firefighting seminar, Larry Davis stated RIT is NOT required for rural firefighting operations - the backup team with a hoseline was all that was needed. According to Davis, RIT is promoted these days simply because "it's fashionable", not useful. I wasn't sure I heard that right, but I taped the seminar and sure enough....that was his position (can I attach audio to a post?)

    So coming from someone with this much experience it was a punch in the stomach to our efforts to develop a County RIT - seeing as all the county Chiefs were in the audience. I'm still a fan of RIT for rural firefighting if set up correctly. But the lingering question is "RIT....fashionable, or Useful?"


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Who is Larry Davis?

    It's very USEFULL if trained and performed correctly.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber pvfire424's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kansas City Mo
    Posts
    667

    Default

    [sarcasm]I guess if you consider being alive, and not injured for life or worse "fashionable", then yeah I guess RIT is "fashionable" [/sarcasm]

    Who is Larry Davis?
    Excellent question, I have not EVER heard of this "gentleman" myself.



    In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny " What a ma-roon!"
    I.A.C.O.J. "The Cork"

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    20

    Default

    Chairman of Rural Firefighting Institute

  5. #5
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,672

    Default

    and what is Rural Firefighting Institute?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    20

    Exclamation

    http://www.rfi411.org/

    stranger still, that RFI sells a book about RIT for rural firefighting.....

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Memphis Tn
    Posts
    27

    Default

    HELL YES RIT WORKS! We had a fire at a Family Dollar store two years ago. When the team made entry they had a light haze in the store. Six minutes later they sounded the first mayday when all hell broke loose. A buddy of mine from fire school was one of the three in the building who were in trouble. The RIT team made entry on the first mayday and found Tim down, out of air and removed him from the building. He survived. They went back in and found Charles down. They removed him and he was DOA at the hospital. The Chief pulled the plug right on interior ops after they pulled out Charles. They recoved Lt. Kirk later. RIT works!

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    107

    Default

    I'd probably lean toward agreeing with Davis although it is not so black and white. Read some of the recent NIOSH LODD reports - either the RIT or the equivalent couldn't effect a rescue (physically couldn't remove the firefighter) or the fire was so severe that the trapped FFs had no chance and/or the RIT or equivalent couldn't even make entry until the fire was substantially knocked back and that is way too late. On a per fire basis, fireground LODDs have actually gone up. If RIT was highly effective, we should see the numbers dropping substantially and that's not the case.

    Another way to look at it is that in the US we still have 3,000+ fire deaths in this country. Obviously, the fire service is not effective in rescuing these people. If circumstances are such that we can't effectively rescue 3,000 or so civilians each year, what makes us think that we are going even close to 100% in rescuing a trapped firefighter. And if you read the NIOSH reports, you see why we are never going to be even close to 100% effective at rescuing downed firefighters with a RIT.

    The only way the fire service will bring our fireground LODD down dramatically will require a very major paradigm shift. Two major issues in my opinion - one recognizing our capabilities for what they truly are. For example, instead of committing an interior crew on a fire that will eventually go defensive, go defensive from the outset. It should be rare that interior gets pulled to go defensive but it happens all the time. The other issue is risk assessment particulary in commerical strcutures. In 2004, 80 people died in commerical bldgs in the US. There is very little civilian life safety risk in most commerical bldgs (and situations like the Station Night Club Fire the fire service will have little impact on at the emergency response level - that's a codes/prevention issue). If the code allows a wood frame or unprotected steel commerical bldg, that's a throwaway bldg in my book. I'm going to risk very, very little in those cases. You're not going to address FF LODDs in commerical bldgs with RIT. It's prevention or more FF funerals, sad to say.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    I'd say if you can stretch 2 lines, get a water supply, force entry, search and vent EFFECTIVELY with your first alarm assignment then RIT is useful.

    I see alot of cases where the RIT is used to do these basic tasks because first alarms are set up for smells and bells and not fires.

    If you don't have the people to do the above tasks and you have a RIT on the front lawn then you are basically looking to put them to work by getting your understaffed crew in trouble.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default Every member on the fireground is a member of the RIT

    A solid RIT program starts with solid fireground basics -- size-up, stretching, searching, venting, etc. -- it also is based on PREVENTING an emergency from happening -- RIT is another tool in the fireground toolbox, it's not a bandaid for our problems but it can be useful as a backup to a backup to a backup -- There's so much basic fire training in RIT training that you can't help but increase your fireground survivability by performing it. How many emergencies have been prevented, or problems solved at the crew or individual level, as a result of the increased training that is currently being done as a result of this so-called "fashionable" fireground funtion?

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    107

    Default

    fdtraining,
    No one will argue with you "in concept." The facts remain though that fireground LODDs have essentially stayed constant since NFPA starting collecting data in the late 1970's. The rate was about 5.8/100,000 strcuture fires in late 1970's and it was about 5.5/100,000 in 2004, the last year that was analyzed. Fireground deaths have bounced around between 5 and 6/100,000 strcuture fires since for almost 30 years now. This is with almost 20 years of 1500 and all of the emphasis on RIT in the past few years. In addition, traumatic deaths on the fireground due to lost in strcuture/structural collapse/fire progression are on the rise. It was stated in the NFPA report for 2004 FF fatalities that the trends in firefigher LODDs are not good.
    So your claim that "it just can't help but increase your fireground survivability" isn't supported by the facts.

    And look at the testing that was done by Phoenix and other departments, showing that RIT/FAST effectiveness is marginal at best. The conclusion from those tests was to focus on prevention and not rescue. And look at the NIOSH LODD reports, either the RIT or equivalent effort failed or the fatal injury/trauma to the trapped firefighters was so severe and quick that it eliminated any possible RIT intervention.

    I think the U.S. fire service has a bad habit of embracing unproven solution and strategies to the problems it faces (why do quints come to mind) and personally I think RIT is a another good example. I don't know if calling it "fashionable" or not by Davis is particulalry useful, but I assume he is trying to say its marginally or not effective, and I would tend to agree.

    If RIT is serving some useful purpose as a skills refresher, back to basics, etc. that's great, but if we are going to dramatically reduce FF LODDs, RIT is not a meaningful part of the solution.

  12. #12
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,672

    Default

    It's tough to say that RIT/RIC/FAST etc. is not helping reduce the number of LODD's when there are so few departments that actually do it correctly. Most that I have seen simply grab a few guys and say "Stand there, your our FAST". Until it's taken seriously and formally put in place, it's value will be marginal at best in the overall view. For those that take it seriously and staff it correctly and perform their duties correctly, they see the value.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1

    Default Fireground Survivability and RIT

    Hey K -- thanks for taking the time to reply -- give the near miss reporting systems, and the latest push toward sharing the positive outcomes of some of the close calls, a chance to develop some data and we should talk again.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,331

    Default Rit

    I feel we need to get more aggressive in calling in maydays to the IC. It seems like firefighters are ashamed that their pride will be hurt or something in calling a mayday.I've seen some training drills where we will try to create a scenario of just a lost firefighter and believe it or not 99% of them would'nt call a mayday,not even when their low air alarm started going off. We went through these drills and did'nt critique anything until we were done with the drill then we talked about what we should and should'nt be doing,and hopefully it was a learning experience for all that was involved.So with this in mind could you imagine if these firefighters were trapped? Unfortunatley if they were the only way we would know, would be if their pass alarm went off and this is unacceptable in my book!! We have implemented " hopefully" when to call a mayday. So I guess what im trying to say is maybe if we get more aggressive in training, and getting our fellow firefighters to call a mayday alot sooner,that might get or give the RIT team a better chance to rescue a downed firefighter before conditions deteriorate.This I feel is problem in getting the RIT team activated,and is'nt meant to affend anyone or anyones statements because LODD deaths are UNACCEPTABLE in my book!! This is just a brushing of things, and hope to see what everyone has to say.Stay safe!!!

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    60

    Default

    It seems like firefighters are ashamed that their pride will be hurt or something in calling a mayday.I've seen some training drills where we will try to create a scenario of just a lost firefighter and believe it or not 99% of them would'nt call a mayday,not even when their low air alarm started going off.

    How true this is. I also have witnessed the exact same things. We (command or the rit team) need as much info from them as possible. Are they alone, where they on a search, hose attack, or even the roof. What side of the structure/floor are they near? The quicker they call-out the better their chances are of being found. I can't agree more with you.

    Let me ask a different question here. What is your sop for radio channels being changed? An example....Search team 1 calls MAYDAY on fireground channel 2, Rit gets deployed(using channel 2 along with command to stay in contact with search team 1), Now does everyone else(those NOT involved in the MAYDAY) stay on fireground channel two or do you switch to channel 3 or 4. My asking is that fire supression will still be going on, ventilation, operators at the engines ect.. Does all this other "chatter" interfer with the RIT operation going on? Just feeling for some opinions on this.

  16. #16
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,672

    Default

    For us, FF calling Mayday and IC stay on their channel, everyone else switches to another. Also, when we operate as a FAST for someone, we work on our own channel as well in order to not confuse anyone's communications. We leave a member with the IC at all times so radio comm between IC/Downed FF is relayed to our FAST by our member.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #17
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    N.J.
    Posts
    1,392

    Default

    kfactor, maybe the departments that said RIT is marginal at best should speak for their own departments only. Yes removing a downed FF in full gear is very difficult, that's why you have to train at doing it and realise there's a need to call for extra manpower to his location when a downed FF is found.There are many incidences where FF's were assisted or outright saved by RIT crews nationwide that don't get reported. In my own department about 3-4 times in the last 2 years the crew assisted FF's in trouble.As far as deployment, if the first due company reports a W/F a RIT is dispatched immediately....Almost all members of my department have been trained in removing a downed FF in full gear,first floor,basement,and upper floor. We use a vacant building for this, not just draging someone across the apparatus floor. Removing an unconcious or injured FF is also a regular part of our fire school training for new recruits.
    Last edited by len1582; 03-03-2006 at 04:37 PM.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,331

    Default

    The way we operate as of right now,if a ff calls for a mayday, all other operations will go to our channel 2,that way the ff if he/she is lost or down etc.does'nt have to worry about changing channels on their radio,and all other operations will go to channel 2 like I said. With that in mind ,we go over these kind of drills and it seems like we have a hard time keeping our people doing what they are suppose to be doing when we do this. They will drop what ever they are doing and try to come and help and most of them have the impression that dropping whatever you are doing is the best way to handle the situation and it's not{because you have more people}you have to maintain discipline when the unfortunate call of a mayday comes in and keep up with your current assignments and keep the fire in check and all other operations.We ended up doing a drill where we proved in my eyes ,and the depts. involved that a RIT team can go in and get a good handle on the situation way before all the ffs running to aid their fellow ff when everyone came over their was no command in what was going on everyone wanted to do their own thing,and with the RIT team everything works like clock work because they had a plan and go over different scenarios while in their staging area and when the are deployed they are under the direction of the team leader and know what to do. I will say that opened some eyes up and we've improved alot this was a few years ago and people are realizing that this is serious business and takes alot of training to be effective.Another thing that I see is people have a hard time adapting to change in the fire service for some reason and are usually a thorn in the operation until it's proven it'll work.THATS JUST MY OPINION THOUGH!! I have to go so what's your opinions on that.STAY SAFE!

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    107

    Default

    len1582
    Your comments about RIT effectiveness and preventing an LODD all comes out in the wash when you look at nationwide LODD numbers, statistics, and trends. Anecdotal comments or opinions that RIT is effective is not shown in the U.S. LODD stats - it just isn't and that's a fact. Not trying to being argumentative with you, but anyone one of us can say I "think" this is effective or this isn't, but it's the stats that show what the true situation is and fact is that despite 1500, the fancy SCBAs we have now, and the RIT/FAST efforts, the rate of fireground LODDs hasn't budged for almost 30 years. Bottom line is that the US fire service continues to lose almost exactly the same number of firefighters per 100,000 structure fires year after year. The only reason why overall LODDs are down since the 70's is becuase fires are down.

    You can dig into this a little deeper, but we don't have the actual data to support any conclusions. But let's assume your right and for some departments under some scenarios the RITs have prevented LODDs. If our overall LODD stats haven't changed, then that migth be explained by a few possible scenarios:
    1. Overall the fire service risk of LODD at structure fires has gone up and RIT has countered that to hold the net LODDs stable; this actually might be true, but if the goal of RIT is to actually reduce LODDs, then to me that's still a failure because it means that while we are putting in place things like RIT to prevent LODDs, we are taking more risk and essentially negating the benefit of RITs, in the big picture, I don't know how we as the US fire service call that an improvemnt
    2. The departments that are effective at implementing RITs are reducing LODDs, but other departments are taking more risk and seeing a higher rate of structure fire LODDs, again the net effective is the same number of LODDs; that might be true as well, but to me it isn't supported by the testing that has been done by some departments and the circumstances of the actual LODDs that occur has reported by NIOSH, etc. The testing that has been done shows plainly that it is difficult at best to rescue a downed firefighter and when you look at the NIOSH LODDs, I see very few if any where an effective RIT would have made a difference.

    There are probably other scenarios that might support your comment that RITs are effective but due to other factors the net LODD effect is negligible. No matter how you might explain it though, there is no disputing the fact that if RIT is supposed to reduce US firegorund LODDs, it hasn't and that to me shows a failure in that approach. Someone commented earlier that some depts aren't serious about their RIT efforts. I agree and that is a very telling commentary on the issue of LODD prevention in the US fire service.

    Bottom line in my opinion is that LODDs will truly drop when the US fire service gets serious about reducing LODDs and when it does, it will realize that reducing LODDs requires us to implement preventative measures way upstream of trying to rescue downed firefighters under very difficutl circumstances.

    If you or anyone or any department truly believes that RIT has been effective in preventing an LODD or more serious injury, by all means keep doing what your'e doing. Myself personally, I don't think RIT has been all that effective for the fire service as a whole and the stats support that and I'm not going to rely on a RIT team's effectiveness (or lack of) to determine whether I go home to my wife and kids or not.
    Last edited by kfactor; 03-07-2006 at 12:32 PM.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default RIT and firefighter safety

    Kfactor, no one can argue that LODDs are not going down or that the culture must change to begin to reduce the numbers. While some of the posts have stated the purpose of RIT is to reduce LODDs (the true purpose is to prevent them), comparing the two purposes tends to further the misunderstanding that a RIT will reduce the number of LODDs that occur. If you get in trouble on the fireground, for whatever reason (some cultural and some simply catastrophic), then a team that can come and assist is a positive. It may even PREVENT a FF LODD.

    Your comparisons, and implication that RIT training is not of current value (at least that's the way I've read it in your posts) is doing more of an injustice by steering people away from doing the basic training that they should be doing -- SCBA skills, disorientation drills, FF assist drills, searching (yes, for a firefighter also) skills, and also hose stretching skills, ventilation skills, etc.

    The current 'packaging' of this basic training is coming under the heading of RIT, so be it. It is resulting in better trained and more proficient firefighters, so it is positive. Is it reducing the LODD numbers, no. Is it preventing FFs from becoming LODDs, possibly. If 1 person carries wire cutters and uses them, or is able to reorient after drywall or plaster fell on their head, or uses some other skill taught under any RIT training topic, then it is WORKING!

    You may not rely on them, and you shouldn't, but if you steer your people or area away from doing the training then you just may be adding to the number you (and most) are trying to reduce.
    Last edited by fdtraining; 03-07-2006 at 03:45 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. RIT Line vs Backup Line
    By phyrngn in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 01-28-2008, 11:47 PM
  2. Civilian Fire Fatalities
    By DCFF in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 02-08-2002, 08:18 AM
  3. RIT training
    By PBFTRK33 in forum Rapid Intervention
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-03-2001, 09:45 PM
  4. 09-02-00 RIT Call...
    By Scene25 in forum Rapid Intervention
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-18-2000, 07:22 AM
  5. Victim Care by RIT Team
    By D. Anderson in forum Rapid Intervention
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-31-2000, 10:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts