Thread: 3 alarm KC Fire

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    Default 3 alarm KC Fire

    I heard the call go out this afternoon and did not hear anything about it. Now I am watching the news, holy crap.

    Every department in joco has a unit there plus a few kcmo units.
    http://www.wdaftv4.com/PrintNews.asp?id=12827
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    That will make a nice little park or parking lot across from the clock tower.
    But really I hope everyone goes home alright.

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    I wonder what the investigation will unconver-about the stability of the connected buildings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMikey
    I wonder what the investigation will unconver-about the stability of the connected buildings.
    We had a similar fire at my old job. The fire bldgs were 2 stores on an end of a row of bldgs. All of these bldgs were of similar age and construction to the ones in OP. However, they were not quite as big. The store attached to the bldgs on fire was saved along with the rest of the block. The owners had to have some reinforcement done(as I recall) and it was fine. The two other bldgs were rebuilt from the ground up. ]
    Last edited by ehs7554; 03-02-2006 at 02:39 PM.

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    Here are some links where you can see some footage from this "Overland Parking Lot" Fire.......

    http://www.kctv.com/ See features videos..
    http://www.kctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4571697 this is a slideshow

    http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/...67/detail.html

    Overland Park Fire Leaves $1 million in Damages
    Overland Park, KS -- Fire investigators say damage from the fire that gutted an Overland Park art gallery will exceed one million dollars.

    The Overland Park Fire Department says structural damage is 750-thousand dollars, not including smoke and water loss in adjacent businesses. Damage to the contents of Gil Rumsey's Gallery was put at about 300-thousand dollars.

    More than 200 original artworks and an unknown number of antiques were lost in the three-alarm blaze, which broke out at about 5:00 pm yesterday.

    At mid-morning, firefighters were still pouring water on the aftermath of the blaze in the city's historic downtown as officials met with business owners to plan damage assessment.

    No injuries were reported.
    Last edited by ehs7554; 03-02-2006 at 02:34 PM.

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    Looking at pictures from the third link I posted and having seen it on TV live......Would your dept have put guys with lines on the roofs of the adjoining bldgs?? All I see is master streams from aerials and the ground.

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    I have a few questions after just viewing the video footage, it is to me anyhow a little confusing...

    It appears to be a typical 1 story taxpayer.

    -There is footage from an amature photographer who as they state and it appears captured footage in the first moments of the fire. In it...it appears the companies are at the rear of the structure and initiating the attack from there, is this a standard SOP to attack from the alley?

    -I also see at least one member using what appears a 1 3/4 with a fog tip as a defensive line without a back-up man, while another member appears to be using a akron ny'er or some other portable large caibler stream device into a rear door with a fog tip AND using a fog stream in a very wide patern? Is this also an SOP? What the hell does that company officer expect to achive with that? Who doesn't use 2 1/2" hose for this operation? (ps- I counted plenty of guys wandering around that could have been used so Manpower didn't appear to be an issue)

    Actually I saw what appeared to be alot of 1 3/4 line and small streams in use in the footage. Where are the 2 1/2" lines? Honestly there shouldn't be any 1 3/4 on the ground at a fire like this. Does anyone agree or disagree? 150gpm from one of those little lines isn't going to do much. Whats with all the fog tips on the exterior operations?...these guys could have moved alot more water at lower pressures and less reaction force.

    Overall in all the videos I see alot of fog streams...many of which aren't penetrating at all including one from a very distant tower ladder. There was footage of two towerladders one of which had a smoothbore and the other which had a fog tip? The fog that was being blown all over and probably not penetrating much or putting out much fire? Do these guys not understand the whole objective of getting stream penetration at a large fire? At least it appeared the guys in the Sutphen bucket did.

    -Also it appears the Tower Ladders didn't position themselves in the front of the taxpayer instead are in the case of one of them...at least a block away or in the rear. Isn't it usually an SOP to make sure the tower ladders are in the front and the aerials off to the sides?

    Also towards the end of one video there are guys on a portable ladder just over the parapet while numerous streams are being pumped into this place. What was the purpose of that? I understand if one is going to make an attack to move in but standing around the collapse zone and laddering an wall of questionable stability at that point in the fire seems a little unecessary...especially since we just killed two guys in Alabama a week ago under similar cirumstances.

    Don't take this as Monday morning q'backing...however there were more than a few glarring issues that I couldn't understand after watching all the film. There might be a good explanation...I was just curious what they might be.

    At least none of the brothers got hurt and everyone went home.

    FTM-PTB

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    Oh Christ.....!!! Here we go!!!

    Let me go get my popcorn.....


    ps....I was wondering the same FFred......

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    Oh Christ.....!!! Here we go!!!

    Let me go get my popcorn.....

    ps....I was wondering the same FFred......
    Don't get me wrong...our jobs don't always go perfect and things happen...Trucks get blocked out...small things are overlooked. But there were just too many questions in my head after viewing the video....I just have to ask because the news doesn't explain everything and the circumstances involved.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-02-2006 at 03:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Don't get me wrong...our jobs don't always go perfect and things happen...Trucks get blocked out...small things are overlooked. But there were just too many questions in my head after viewing the video....I just have to ask because the news doesn't explain everything and the circumstances involved.

    FTM-PTB

    Oh No doubt brother.....I'm just breaking ballz....

    I just know you are going to get the super sensitive club and the saftey sussies going.....

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    Oh Christ.....!!! Here we go!!!

    Let me go get my popcorn.....
    I have a good friend that works at OPFD.

    I'll e-mail him to let him know that it is his week in the barrel.

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    If I had too guess, Id say its the same thing I see around here from time to time. Evryone has preconnected, 1 3/4" lines with fogs. Thats our normal attack line. Some get in the bad habit of pulling it for everything (in this case, repetition isnt a good thing). It takes one of the initial company officers to think outside the box (from normal opps) and go for the big lines right away.

    I ran into that a couple times when I was a CO at my former department. Id pull up 3rd due, and pull a 2 1/2". Id get looks from the IC like I was from a different planet, untill he realised it was the right call, and the other companies switched.

    I dont know the SOPs for these departments, its just a guess its the same thing.

    Cant explain the fog tip on the 2 1/2" or ground monitor. That just seems silly, like a fog on a ladder pipe/tower.

    As for the tower placement, I dont know why it was that far away. But let me say this. The only department Ive seen use towers like your used to FFFRED is you. Most places I know of only use towers/ladders to flow from above, not in through the front on that type of building. I dont know why that is, as the FDNY way looks like a good way too do it. I know Ive never seen it here. If we need to flow through the front, its a deck pipe on a pumper or a ground monitor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    If I had too guess, Id say its the same thing I see around here from time to time. Evryone has preconnected, 1 3/4" lines with fogs. Thats our normal attack line. Some get in the bad habit of pulling it for everything (in this case, repetition isnt a good thing). It takes one of the initial company officers to think outside the box (from normal opps) and go for the big lines right away.

    I ran into that a couple times when I was a CO at my former department. Id pull up 3rd due, and pull a 2 1/2". Id get looks from the IC like I was from a different planet, untill he realised it was the right call, and the other companies switched.

    I dont know the SOPs for these departments, its just a guess its the same thing.
    Bad habit or not...there was more than one I saw and there isn't anyone teaching or writting in any recognized journal or training seminiar that a 1 3/4 should be used here. Poor disipline...doesn't reflect well on the Engine Companies there....that is assuming their Chiefs aren't condoning this type of operation.

    Cant explain the fog tip on the 2 1/2" or ground monitor. That just seems silly, like a fog on a ladder pipe/tower.
    Hey Hey Dave...we are in agreement again...I think the devil must be getting pretty cold!

    As for the tower placement, I dont know why it was that far away. But let me say this. The only department Ive seen use towers like your used to FFFRED is you. Most places I know of only use towers/ladders to flow from above, not in through the front on that type of building. I dont know why that is, as the FDNY way looks like a good way too do it. I know Ive never seen it here. If we need to flow through the front, its a deck pipe on a pumper or a ground monitor.
    There are alot of departments that do it like that. Not just the FDNY...I'm sure the Jersey and LI guys could comment on that. Just the same I've seen footage of many depts using Towers in such a fashion, I never thought we were the only ones who used towers in that manner as that is one of the main reason someone would purchase Towers. If all we are going to do is shoot water from above we could spend less and just get aerial ladders.

    Chicago uses their Snorkles we have Tower Ladders...other cities have one or the other..similar tactics despite 100s miles seperating us.

    One simple reason is a roof is designed to shed water and you won't always get the best access from above. If the fire is burning on the underside and all you are able to hit is the fire through whatever holes it has made or taken advantage of (skylights, bulkheads) you really aren't doing much to exinguish the fire and probably pushing it around in the cockloft. At some point during the fire above might be the best course of action....especally on a taxpayer such as this. The cockloft area apears to be largely exposed in the front and from the large front windows...the ability to get a moveable and slightly elevated large caliber stream which can easily be shot up and into the cockloft and worked left to right accross the length of the fire occupancy can't be understated here. Read pages 352-355 of the Fire Officers Handbook of Tactics for another explanation of what I just said above.

    Aerials can only shoot water down...they can't shoot water in an "Upward" direction. That is part of what makes the Tower Ladder a supperior tool for this type operation. I saw at least two tower ladders in the video. If those had been flanking on the exposure 2 and 4 sides and worked back from the fire walls on both sides there would be a faster knockdown and much less chance of extension into the adjoining occupancies.

    Instead we saw one was two or three exposures downwind...more or less it appeared out of the game altogether. I imagine the chief would probably be having words with that Truck Officer regarding placement.

    These are just some observations based on the chopper and ground footage...should probably be in the tactics forum, but it is here.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-02-2006 at 10:59 PM.

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    Default 2 1/2 hose, whats that???

    Well a funny things is that I work for a large metro FD (1000+ FF's) and we do not even have 2 1/2" lines. We use strictly 1 3/4 and 2". We have 3" to supply standpipes and sprinkler systems and for supply to a Y to attach the 2" also. And then ground monitors supplied by 5".
    Let me correct that real quick. We do have lightweight 2 1/2" for high rise fires. All tips are Elkhart break-apart nozzles. 15/16" smooth on the 1 3/4" and 1" tip for the 2" lines.
    Just my two cents worth. 2 1/2" would be useful at times for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truckmonkey42
    Well a funny things is that I work for a large metro FD (1000+ FF's) and we do not even have 2 1/2" lines. We use strictly 1 3/4 and 2". We have 3" to supply standpipes and sprinkler systems and for supply to a Y to attach the 2" also. And then ground monitors supplied by 5".
    Let me correct that real quick. We do have lightweight 2 1/2" for high rise fires. All tips are Elkhart break-apart nozzles. 15/16" smooth on the 1 3/4" and 1" tip for the 2" lines.
    Just my two cents worth. 2 1/2" would be useful at times for sure.
    Just to clairify the point I'm making Truckmonkey is that the larger hose should be used. You have a small line 1 3/4 and a large line 2". At this fire I would guess 2 inch would be the smallest line allowed by procedure for safety, efficiency and practical concerns by your department.

    Using 1 1/2" and 1 3/4" lines at a fire of this size isn't practical nor safe. What ever their big line is...is what should have been used. 2, 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 hose.

    Thats all.

    FTM-PTB

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    I have never trashed any other departments tactics, If you wernt there, you dont know what went on.
    I was not there, so I can not comment. And havent we all learned that video only shows a small part of the entire event.
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    The other part that was not brought out into the news completley was that it was an art gallery with tons and tons of antique furniture, there was also an art restoration studio with many unknown chemicals. Pure case of surround and drown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMikey
    I have never trashed any other departments tactics, If you wernt there, you dont know what went on.
    I was not there, so I can not comment. And havent we all learned that video only shows a small part of the entire event.

    Woa Bro,

    Like I said this could be discussed on the Tactics forum but it was posted here. I am currious as to why some things were done the way they appeared to be on the video. There was a lot of video and many angles that were provided here. I thought it would be a good oportunity to discuss LCS tactics at taxpayers(stripmalls) since there was soo much video especially from above during daylight hours. No where am I claiming they should have gone inside this place...I agree it looks like a surround and drown and those are the tactics I was asking about.

    Its not trashing a depts tactics...it is discussing why something is good or not good on the fireground. Like I stated...maybe there is a good reason but right now the reasoning one could use escapes me for some of these tactics.

    You have to be honest putting a fog stream in a rear door or using 1 3/4 lines with fog tips at a suround and drown isnt' taught at any instructors confrence that I'm aware of or attended in the past. I know a few of the instructors and some of these tactics would never pass the editorial process.

    Many times guys have questioned my depts tactics or procedures based on video, or even photos. Not so long ago they had a small Tenement fire in Queens from begining to end on here and there was much discussion in regards to what occured. I explained the reasoning and what was going on based on what our procedures are and what I could tell the members were doing. Guys questioned why we don't have preconnects and I and others explained it rather thoroughly.

    Thats all I was looking for.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-02-2006 at 10:19 PM.

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    Default Learning something

    I do not see FFRED as trashing tactics. I actually learned a few things by reading what he wrote and then watching the video again. Very sound info about the use of platforms.
    On a side note, I spent some time in that area years ago and they have some pretty solid FF's and departments. Olathe, OPFD, Lenexa, they seem to have quite a few fires.

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    I know what their tactics are down there, but I am not here to bash on fellow firemen......maybe their command staff though. From what I have heard and seen these are the same guys who do nothing until the command board is set up in the front. this means no companies (ie: first due) go to work before the chief and other companies have arrived. I could be wrong, but I have seen it and heard many stories from not just my job but the dept members down there themselves.

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    Pure speculation here but.....what if all they had are fog nozzles? My department has fog nozzles on all our deck guns, our tele-squirt and our handlines. My engine and the paid staff engine have some stacked tips for a handline in our engineer compartment but noone seems to know how to properly use them except for myself and like 3 others, and we are the only ones on our department with a fire science degree.

    One would figure that since OPFD is a larger department and runs quite a few calls that they would have smoothbores or the like but maybe not. I know we just have to use what we have to the best of our ability. Also, sounds like OPFD has some stock in the Bruancini methodology.
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    I didn't relize we (KCMO) had units at this fire? I thought we had just filled in some of their stations? Maybe Jerry can clarify.

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    As far as I heard KCMO helped fill. I think that is probably best. I am not sure they would want anything to do with that mess.

    Granada Theater Saved From Fire
    KANSAS CITY, KS-- This morning, a firewall prevented flames from engulfing the Granada Theater in Kansas City, Kansas. Firefighters say a suspicious two alarm fire began in a vacant building at 10th and Minnesota around six o'clock a.m. Crews put the flames out, but they started up again. The recently revovated theater was saved because of the firewall seperating the two buildings. Crews say the building was empy when the fire started.
    The above vacant bldg is a 2 story (as FFRED) would put it "Tax Payer" As far as I know both are under renovation. Flames were through the roof upon arrival. est.24 personnel on initial alarm and another 10 on the second and the bldg was saved with minimal smoke damage to a historical bldg/theater. Granted it did not have the fire load of the art gallery, but it has been on fire before and had many known weaknesses(holes in the floor, week joists, etc renovation).......hmmmm

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    no kansas city rigs made the fire. 37's and 36's got fill in mutual aid assignments in prairie village.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554
    As far as I heard KCMO helped fill. I think that is probably best. I am not sure they would want anything to do with that mess.
    That's pretty much the story. It would be more like having a thoroughbred giving rides at a child's birthday party. It seems to me that we don't play well with others. With mutual aid response around here, our tactics and aggressiveness would rather be bridled in by IC's from other departments. That's tough to do. We were also grounded from KS for a few years because of that.

    *I say this with the exclusion of the KCKSFD.

    FFFRED; We use a lot of combination nozzles here. Most of our aerials and platforms use them. Some are using stacked tips. We use them the way they're supposed to be utilized, up close and personal. Pumpers carry 4 - 1 3/4" crosslays with both smooth-bore and combination nozzles on preconnects. It really goes to the officers' personal preference.

    Last edited by jerrygarcia; 03-09-2006 at 12:51 AM.
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