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  1. #21
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Spokane,better reread the posts.It was 2415 that referenced 5000 systems,NOT Firedog.Firedog is an EXPERIENCED extricator from the north woods of Canada,and well versed on systems.Outside of that we're in agreement. T.C.


  2. #22
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    2415,Crunch your own numbers.WWW.Resqtec.com. If what you seek is not there,there is a contact sheet where you can get the specfic answer you want. T.C.

  3. #23
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    We have been using Amkus for about 8 years now, and never had a problem with our unit. Before we purchased this unit we tested and compared TNT, Amkus & Hurst and felt that the Amkus unit was the best bang for our dollar. We liked how it was balanced, and operated. I know units have changed since then.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2415
    Ok, first off I will try to be nice here and if someone thinks my facts are wrong let me know. ANY tool that claims to have a LIFETIME warranty is full of it. Ask them what the lifetime of the tool is according to the manufacturer? 5000 PSI systems were great for our grandparents, do you have a dial up connection still? Things these days with rescue tools are simple, look at the NFPA numbers! All manufacturers that want to meet the new NFPA numbers must submit their tools for an apples to apples test. So like I said look at the numbers and also look at how balanced the tool is when you hold it, and the speed of the tool. When you take into consideration all these factors there is only one choice in my humble opinion and that is Genesis Rescue Tools! I dare anyone to contest that they are not the best tool out there! Oh and dont be fooled thinking Hurst is innovative by changing Lukas' name to Centar, Just my 2 cents!
    in respone to jake 2415 , CHAMPION RESCUE TOOLS do have a lifetime warranty,on the entire tool , except hoses. this covers any breakage of the tools or if you even wear it out. the warranty is one paragraph long. check their web page. all other warranties have exceptions and disclaimers. also CHAMPION builds 5000psi or 10,000psi , with any fluid . i do believe that they build the finest tool around. check for a demo.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jawsone
    in respone to jake 2415 , CHAMPION RESCUE TOOLS do have a lifetime warranty,on the entire tool , except hoses. this covers any breakage of the tools or if you even wear it out. the warranty is one paragraph long. check their web page. all other warranties have exceptions and disclaimers. also CHAMPION builds 5000psi or 10,000psi , with any fluid . i do believe that they build the finest tool around. check for a demo.
    Jawsone,
    I won't argue with your opinion on the Champion tools, they make a solid tool. I am curious if you've had the same experiences as I have. My full-time department uses Champions. We've had issues making large cuts with the cutters due to the design. Don't get me wrong, they work great for cutting anything you can get into the blade width, but beyond that it's been difficult to get them in where we need. We've actually resorted to using air chisels to make cuts on larger B and C posts.

    The other issue I've seen is with the larger spreaders. The way they're designed they seem to rip through metal rather than spreading it. Seems like if they'd use wider tips, they'd spread better.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    Jawsone,
    I won't argue with your opinion on the Champion tools, they make a solid tool. I am curious if you've had the same experiences as I have. My full-time department uses Champions. We've had issues making large cuts with the cutters due to the design. Don't get me wrong, they work great for cutting anything you can get into the blade width, but beyond that it's been difficult to get them in where we need. We've actually resorted to using air chisels to make cuts on larger B and C posts.

    The other issue I've seen is with the larger spreaders. The way they're designed they seem to rip through metal rather than spreading it. Seems like if they'd use wider tips, they'd spread better.
    catch22..
    the RC-5 cutter from CHAMPION is the most powerfull cutter of its kind, 248,000psi
    it does have some diffuculty in tight spots,so check out CHAMPION'S web page brother,look at the B.E.A.S.T. it is going to be unvailed at FDIC. 280,000psi plus with a 10 inch opening,plus in seconds you can change to a 28 inch spreader by pulling three pins. on the RS-18 spreader. it does a parallel spread , and it does like to eat metal. just remember to put as much of the tips in where you spread and it should work real well. when i stopped using it like the old spreaders and watched placemant ,oh yea..
    my dept has hurst up till 2yrs ago. the 32a broke and we replaced with the CHAMPION RS-18 spreader, man does it run. we also are in the process of replacing a hurst 110 with the CHAMPION truck mounted 220/5hp, for better application at half the cost and twice the power.
    take care

  7. #27
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    Spokanerep, I think your referring to 2415's post.
    2415, I have learned over the years that numbers mean nothing, you must do your own tool tests so you and your dept can see first hand who's tool can cut and who's can't. The tool tests we have done on all the popular brands have proved it for us, you lineup all the cutters and make them do the exact same cut and see who performs the best, take into account the service end of things and you will have yourself some fine tools.

  8. #28
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    Um, hi, I was the one to compare 5000 to dial up. Take a second and figure out why I did and it will all make sense. I in no way bash Hurst, in fact if there was no Hurst where would we be now? My point was that the 5000 systems are old technology and that 10,000 systems are whats new. I'm still waiting for those NFPA numbers. Everyone can claim to be the best but untill it is proven I am not convinced! Thanks!

  9. #29
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    2415,And my point to YOU is you better do some more research.For example,ResQtec's systems ARE 5000PSI and are totally redesigned.Hurst is a 5000psi system and has done a lot of redesign. I work with rescue tools; A LOT and NOBODY out there is using your "grandfathers"design and the only difference between most 5000 systems and the 10,000 systems operationally is the pressure and the chemical composition of the fluid.Even your beloved Genesis has "morphed"over the last few years.As I said earlier,I've yet to find a tool or Mfg of tools that has the "ultimate" tool. And ANY modern tool system(working)beats a hacksaw and a portopower which were the tools of choice when I started.You said "correct me if I'm wrong",consider yourself corrected. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-06-2006 at 10:14 AM.

  10. #30
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    Default Ok

    Ok as far as Resqtek they do not post there NFPA numbers on there site, so where are they? What is new about Hurst 5000 systems in the last 10 years? They are still heavy, and they are not balanced well. If you want to consider what you said as correcting me I will accept that. I also agree to the previous poster that you must get all tools out and have them all make the same cut. That sounds alot like the new NFPA standard rating system? So I ask again if someone can get me the NFPA numbers for the apples to apples comparison of every other tool! If they are better then why dont they post their numbers?

  11. #31
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    What is new about Hurst 5000 systems in the last 10 years?
    Personally speaking, I have a brand new cutter that we got 2 years ago. Has more cutting power than the older set. I know there are also smaller, stronger pumps available.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #32
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Jake,I told you in that same thread if the SPECFIC item you were looking for was not posted,use the CONTACT SITE and get the information you seek.As far as your NFPA numbers are concerned,I submit to you that they are subjective and not the end all answer in the real world arena of on the street extrication. Useful for comparison? Yes. An indicator of a tools ability to do a job on the street,Ah not really.Metal involved in crashes very seldom reacts the same as metal cut/spread under test lab conditions.In regards to Hurst,some of the 5000 line is similar to it's ancestors.Other tools such as the cutters have changed quite dramatically.Our spreader,a Holmatro is similar in weight to the Hurst,IS a 10000 PSI system,and I've yet to see it fail to do it's assigned task.But it is a generation one tool.Before you base your total tool ability/knowledge on nfpa NUMBERS,try getting out in the field and head to head the tools.Not just on junks,but on wrecks.And if Genisis still comes out on top of your list,that's great.But don't discount the other manufacturers,there are a LOT of nice product offerings out there.And I'd be happy to go head to head with you on tools ANYTIME,maybe I'll learn something and even better;maybe YOU will. T.C.

  13. #33
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    Ok, now I didnt mean to offend anyone and I apologize if I did. I in fact was a huge Hurst fan for a long time, and I would never insult the company that started the game, but I have now opened my eyes and looked at other options. My ideal option is the Genesis, and that does come from cutting cars and real world situations. They are faster, lighter, and more balanced than any of the other tools I've used. Ok, I will give you that the newer 5000 systems are better then the older ones, but 10,000 systems are typically lighter and faster in my experiance. Also with Genesis' Mach III Simo unit you have an overdrive function that allows a 40% increase in speed if only using one tool! There are many different styles and techniques of extrication, none of them work in every situation. The reason I bring up NFPA numbers is that I have not found number on any other tools and I think the manufacturers are trying not to tout their numbers because they arent as high as the compitetion. As far as comparision between real world cuts and the NFPA cuts, the NFPA test is the closest thing we have to judge apples to apples. Oh please dont even start talking about a UL listing on a tool! I would love to go head to head with my Genesis against another tool and I say bring it on! Check out some of the tools in action at: www.genesisrescue.com

  14. #34
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I do side by side tool comparisons on cars. Not by reading numbers. But that's just my way.

    The "worst" tool in well trained hands will do just as well (or even better) than the "best" tool in untrained hands.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #35
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    Default Lol

    I can agree with that, trust me I have seen some good tools in some bad hands and thats a bad combo!

  16. #36
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    I've run the Genisis system and I don't personally care for the overdrive.But I'm old and slow.If you think balance on the Genisis is good,I invite you to try the new Ewo Resqtec line.Don't have to buy 'em,but do try the balance.And I'm talking about the new lime green accented ones NOT last years.These are a really well balanced tool.And service after the sale is equally important.Hardtop convertibles while you wait,can we build one for you? Hehe T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-06-2006 at 05:05 PM.

  17. #37
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    As far as the rest of the companies. I have never even heard of them.
    WTF? How can you not have heard of Holmatro and others????

    Talking about old tools and servicing, my old Unit used to have an old set of 1000 series Holmatro- Gawd they were heavy, but they never stopped! We used to flog the hell out of them with no servicing except on the motor of the pump (ie oil changes, etc) for years.

    We then upgraded to 2000 series, then later again, 3000 series.
    Luke

  18. #38
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    Jake - You keep pushing Genesis Tools and NFPA 1936 and thats great. Since you seem to have a great deal of knowledge regarding the two I would like to ask you this - Why does Genesis test their tools in Europe and not here in the US like other manufacturers??? Is it because they are manufactured by Weber and re-labeled when they are shipped here??

    Also, you mention NFPA numbers - Why do the power units say they are tested to 10,000 psi - yet the some tools say they are tested to 10,500. Which is it ???

    I also find it hard to believe that two cutters can have the same rating, when the blade opening and overall weights are the same.

    And to respond to the overdrive thing - thats a marketing gimmick and nothing else. My guess is that power unit has one pump with a diverter valve - when more flow is needed, you simply send all fluid to one tool, rather than two. If I'm correct, you are limited to using one tool when in this mode.

    A true simo pumps do this with two pumps so two tools can operate effectively and independently of each other.

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    Default Say it louder

    Thank you rescue master, lutan. I am not going to promote any brand of tools, but thanks for attempting to put some sense into this thread. Don't believe anything you read in an ad. The biggest mistake is judging any cutter on numbers. Blade design is a MAJOR part of cutting ability, and more than one brand has figured that out. Better blade design does not require some outrageous number, but the two do have a connection and you have to find the correct combination.
    You are dead on with the diverter valve.
    You have to do field work WITH an open mind to really evaluate tools. Experience and common sense are must. Finding evaluators without some type of ties to manufacturers/dealers is pretty important but hard to do.

  20. #40
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Hehe,OK I admit it.I've got ties to tools.I've got a lot of friends that sell various systems and I LOVE THEM ALL! I'd like to think I'm objective in evaluations,therein the no "ultimate"tool statement.The "my tools best"crowd ought to step back and do the job (on a modern vehicle)with a hacksaw and a manual portopower.Starting there,one can TRULY appreciate the marvelous rescue systems we have access to today.Or the countless lives that have been saved by vehicle rescue technicians worldwide using these systems. I like to try every system I can get my hands on,not only does it increase my knowledge and interoperability it also gives me a better "platform"from which to evaluate tools.And HRT,I know your comments(good ones at that)weren't directed towrd me,but I couldn't resist. T.C.

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