1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    Jawsone,
    I won't argue with your opinion on the Champion tools, they make a solid tool. I am curious if you've had the same experiences as I have. My full-time department uses Champions. We've had issues making large cuts with the cutters due to the design. Don't get me wrong, they work great for cutting anything you can get into the blade width, but beyond that it's been difficult to get them in where we need. We've actually resorted to using air chisels to make cuts on larger B and C posts.

    The other issue I've seen is with the larger spreaders. The way they're designed they seem to rip through metal rather than spreading it. Seems like if they'd use wider tips, they'd spread better.
    catch22..
    the RC-5 cutter from CHAMPION is the most powerfull cutter of its kind, 248,000psi
    it does have some diffuculty in tight spots,so check out CHAMPION'S web page brother,look at the B.E.A.S.T. it is going to be unvailed at FDIC. 280,000psi plus with a 10 inch opening,plus in seconds you can change to a 28 inch spreader by pulling three pins. on the RS-18 spreader. it does a parallel spread , and it does like to eat metal. just remember to put as much of the tips in where you spread and it should work real well. when i stopped using it like the old spreaders and watched placemant ,oh yea..
    my dept has hurst up till 2yrs ago. the 32a broke and we replaced with the CHAMPION RS-18 spreader, man does it run. we also are in the process of replacing a hurst 110 with the CHAMPION truck mounted 220/5hp, for better application at half the cost and twice the power.
    take care

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    Spokanerep, I think your referring to 2415's post.
    2415, I have learned over the years that numbers mean nothing, you must do your own tool tests so you and your dept can see first hand who's tool can cut and who's can't. The tool tests we have done on all the popular brands have proved it for us, you lineup all the cutters and make them do the exact same cut and see who performs the best, take into account the service end of things and you will have yourself some fine tools.

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    Um, hi, I was the one to compare 5000 to dial up. Take a second and figure out why I did and it will all make sense. I in no way bash Hurst, in fact if there was no Hurst where would we be now? My point was that the 5000 systems are old technology and that 10,000 systems are whats new. I'm still waiting for those NFPA numbers. Everyone can claim to be the best but untill it is proven I am not convinced! Thanks!

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    2415,And my point to YOU is you better do some more research.For example,ResQtec's systems ARE 5000PSI and are totally redesigned.Hurst is a 5000psi system and has done a lot of redesign. I work with rescue tools; A LOT and NOBODY out there is using your "grandfathers"design and the only difference between most 5000 systems and the 10,000 systems operationally is the pressure and the chemical composition of the fluid.Even your beloved Genesis has "morphed"over the last few years.As I said earlier,I've yet to find a tool or Mfg of tools that has the "ultimate" tool. And ANY modern tool system(working)beats a hacksaw and a portopower which were the tools of choice when I started.You said "correct me if I'm wrong",consider yourself corrected. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-06-2006 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Ok

    Ok as far as Resqtek they do not post there NFPA numbers on there site, so where are they? What is new about Hurst 5000 systems in the last 10 years? They are still heavy, and they are not balanced well. If you want to consider what you said as correcting me I will accept that. I also agree to the previous poster that you must get all tools out and have them all make the same cut. That sounds alot like the new NFPA standard rating system? So I ask again if someone can get me the NFPA numbers for the apples to apples comparison of every other tool! If they are better then why dont they post their numbers?

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    What is new about Hurst 5000 systems in the last 10 years?
    Personally speaking, I have a brand new cutter that we got 2 years ago. Has more cutting power than the older set. I know there are also smaller, stronger pumps available.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Jake,I told you in that same thread if the SPECFIC item you were looking for was not posted,use the CONTACT SITE and get the information you seek.As far as your NFPA numbers are concerned,I submit to you that they are subjective and not the end all answer in the real world arena of on the street extrication. Useful for comparison? Yes. An indicator of a tools ability to do a job on the street,Ah not really.Metal involved in crashes very seldom reacts the same as metal cut/spread under test lab conditions.In regards to Hurst,some of the 5000 line is similar to it's ancestors.Other tools such as the cutters have changed quite dramatically.Our spreader,a Holmatro is similar in weight to the Hurst,IS a 10000 PSI system,and I've yet to see it fail to do it's assigned task.But it is a generation one tool.Before you base your total tool ability/knowledge on nfpa NUMBERS,try getting out in the field and head to head the tools.Not just on junks,but on wrecks.And if Genisis still comes out on top of your list,that's great.But don't discount the other manufacturers,there are a LOT of nice product offerings out there.And I'd be happy to go head to head with you on tools ANYTIME,maybe I'll learn something and even better;maybe YOU will. T.C.

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    Ok, now I didnt mean to offend anyone and I apologize if I did. I in fact was a huge Hurst fan for a long time, and I would never insult the company that started the game, but I have now opened my eyes and looked at other options. My ideal option is the Genesis, and that does come from cutting cars and real world situations. They are faster, lighter, and more balanced than any of the other tools I've used. Ok, I will give you that the newer 5000 systems are better then the older ones, but 10,000 systems are typically lighter and faster in my experiance. Also with Genesis' Mach III Simo unit you have an overdrive function that allows a 40% increase in speed if only using one tool! There are many different styles and techniques of extrication, none of them work in every situation. The reason I bring up NFPA numbers is that I have not found number on any other tools and I think the manufacturers are trying not to tout their numbers because they arent as high as the compitetion. As far as comparision between real world cuts and the NFPA cuts, the NFPA test is the closest thing we have to judge apples to apples. Oh please dont even start talking about a UL listing on a tool! I would love to go head to head with my Genesis against another tool and I say bring it on! Check out some of the tools in action at: www.genesisrescue.com

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    I do side by side tool comparisons on cars. Not by reading numbers. But that's just my way.

    The "worst" tool in well trained hands will do just as well (or even better) than the "best" tool in untrained hands.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Lol

    I can agree with that, trust me I have seen some good tools in some bad hands and thats a bad combo!

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    I've run the Genisis system and I don't personally care for the overdrive.But I'm old and slow.If you think balance on the Genisis is good,I invite you to try the new Ewo Resqtec line.Don't have to buy 'em,but do try the balance.And I'm talking about the new lime green accented ones NOT last years.These are a really well balanced tool.And service after the sale is equally important.Hardtop convertibles while you wait,can we build one for you? Hehe T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-06-2006 at 05:05 PM.

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    As far as the rest of the companies. I have never even heard of them.
    WTF? How can you not have heard of Holmatro and others????

    Talking about old tools and servicing, my old Unit used to have an old set of 1000 series Holmatro- Gawd they were heavy, but they never stopped! We used to flog the hell out of them with no servicing except on the motor of the pump (ie oil changes, etc) for years.

    We then upgraded to 2000 series, then later again, 3000 series.
    Luke

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    Jake - You keep pushing Genesis Tools and NFPA 1936 and thats great. Since you seem to have a great deal of knowledge regarding the two I would like to ask you this - Why does Genesis test their tools in Europe and not here in the US like other manufacturers??? Is it because they are manufactured by Weber and re-labeled when they are shipped here??

    Also, you mention NFPA numbers - Why do the power units say they are tested to 10,000 psi - yet the some tools say they are tested to 10,500. Which is it ???

    I also find it hard to believe that two cutters can have the same rating, when the blade opening and overall weights are the same.

    And to respond to the overdrive thing - thats a marketing gimmick and nothing else. My guess is that power unit has one pump with a diverter valve - when more flow is needed, you simply send all fluid to one tool, rather than two. If I'm correct, you are limited to using one tool when in this mode.

    A true simo pumps do this with two pumps so two tools can operate effectively and independently of each other.

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    Default Say it louder

    Thank you rescue master, lutan. I am not going to promote any brand of tools, but thanks for attempting to put some sense into this thread. Don't believe anything you read in an ad. The biggest mistake is judging any cutter on numbers. Blade design is a MAJOR part of cutting ability, and more than one brand has figured that out. Better blade design does not require some outrageous number, but the two do have a connection and you have to find the correct combination.
    You are dead on with the diverter valve.
    You have to do field work WITH an open mind to really evaluate tools. Experience and common sense are must. Finding evaluators without some type of ties to manufacturers/dealers is pretty important but hard to do.

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    Hehe,OK I admit it.I've got ties to tools.I've got a lot of friends that sell various systems and I LOVE THEM ALL! I'd like to think I'm objective in evaluations,therein the no "ultimate"tool statement.The "my tools best"crowd ought to step back and do the job (on a modern vehicle)with a hacksaw and a manual portopower.Starting there,one can TRULY appreciate the marvelous rescue systems we have access to today.Or the countless lives that have been saved by vehicle rescue technicians worldwide using these systems. I like to try every system I can get my hands on,not only does it increase my knowledge and interoperability it also gives me a better "platform"from which to evaluate tools.And HRT,I know your comments(good ones at that)weren't directed towrd me,but I couldn't resist. T.C.

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    Is it just me, or is it a bit apparent that a lot of the selection process comes down to personal preference and "feel"? We recently went through the purchasing process on a set-up. Tried Amkus and Hurst, had guys with first hand experience with Champion, Genesis, Halmotro, and TnT. Finally narrowed it down to Hurst and Amkus.

    The thing I saw was a lot of "I like this feature" and "I don't like this." Mostly, because of the controls! Had guys that liked the "twist throttle" type controls of the Amkus, and guys that hated it. Same with the thumbwheel on the Hurst Centaurs.

    Basically, we ended up making the decision based on putting the tools to the car. What seemed to cut/spread best, what felt good and felt like we had better control of while operating, and compatibility with some of the neighboring departments for mutual aid. Interesting process, but fun! How many times can you come up with an excuse to play with rescue tools and tear things up with no pressure!

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    Catch22, It almost never comes down to performance after the dust settles. Typically departments set up demos with all the vendors, cut up some really old cars that are not wrecked, then base thier decision on factors that could have been dug up without doing the demo. These factors are usually compatability, price and a little bit of "I like the color of this tool, I like how fast that tool is, controls etc"

    Honestly, its a Chevy vs. Ford vs. Dodge deal at the end of the day.

    I think when making a decision that will effect the department for the next ten to twenty years, service, safety and longevity should play a major role in decision making.

    Ill toss my two cents in the bucket while I step off my soap box.

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    Default Hurst Service DOD Germany

    Hylander81,

    This is a reply to your request for companies that service Hurst and Centaur tools in Germany.

    Our company sells and services Hurst tools to DOD facilities worldwide. Since you are with the Air Force in Germany you must be located at either Ramstein or Spangdahlem. We travel to both of these bases about 3-4 times a year. Ramstein has purchased a number of Hurst systems from us. I will be traveling back to Germany later this spring and if you would like to review the current Hurst product line just let me know.

    Drop me and email with your contact information if you would like to meet with me on my next trip.

    www.nlloyd@lncurtis.com

    Thanks

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    Genesis and forget the rest.

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    I really dont care if its a port-a-power,K-12, or a winch as long as it get the people out..... But we got Hurst they work good.

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    6602,How many brands of tools have you qualified on and on what criteria do you base your statement?Also,how many years/hours do you have doing vehicle extrication? Nothing in your profile would lead me to such a sweeping blanket statement. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-08-2006 at 08:32 AM.

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    I'll put my 2 cents in after this brewhaha. Hurst is the oldest rescue tool manufacturer. Weber/Genesis is the second oldest(year after Hurst started).
    Yes, Genesis and Weber are one in the same, basically. Just like the first Amkus tools were Lukas when they started there gradual switch. Centaur is basically Lukas as well as the newer Hurst tools are Lukas/Centaur tools in low pressure with Hurst stickers on them. I still have an Amkus spreader with amkus stickers and Lukas/German engraving on the cylinder. My Hurst extricator has Lukas blades on it.
    Weber/Genesis doesn't go thru the UL testing here because TUV is equal in the rest of the world. And TUV is accepted in more countries than UL so why pay twice for the same certification. Weber/Genesis has 70% more sales in the rest of the world than in the US. So that's why they use a more universally accepted testing company. Weber/Genesis is the largest produced tool in the world. Sorry, this is a fact because Holmatro tried to claim they had the most produced tool in the world and this ended in litigation in Europe. And Weber/Genesis far exceeded anyboby elses claims. Enough said. Most other companies put alot more money into advertising than Weber/Genesis does. Perception is huge.
    My opinion is ultimately you have to use the tool and see what your crew can handle and use safely.
    I still prefer the NFPA ratings ABCDE of the tool over anything else in my comparisons. Sorry again, Genesis has the highest NFPA ratings of most tools, overall. They have several new tools coming out very soon. Genesis and Holmatro publish all there NFPA ratings, Amkus has one cutter they show rated and I haven't seen anyone else's. I scowered the Resqtek site and found no ratings like was earlier suggested. Most companies I've called won't give out there ratings because of how poor most are.
    Yes I prefer Genesis. We had a rescue with older Hurst and a rescue with brand new Amkus tools and switched everything over to Genesis in one swoop. At my career dept and my volly company, we used them for a number of years and every dept in the county had Genesis.
    I was impressed with their setup at FDIC and the demos behind the building with Genesis.
    Maybe somebody can answer me one question regarding Holmatro's core. If you are using their tools and your hand becomes pinned how do shut off the power the tool? They have eliminated their dump valves. One of their salesman told me it would never happen. I asked him again what if it did and he wouldn't answer. You have a tool under 10,500 psi and their hot disconnect will not work under pressure. You have to shut the power unit down and connect a new tool and hose. Just something to think about. Stay safe.

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    Shrek,Since when were Lukas/Centaur LOW pressure tools? To the best of my recollection they are/have always been HIGH pressure tools.The only people that I know of REGULARLY using LOW pressure are Hurst(genuine hurst)and ResQtec.I'm in agreement with Medic,as a regular user of many different tools.I've yet to find a system that I find VASTLY superior to another.All will do a good job when placed in a competent operators hands.My testing on tools is done in field under normal operating conditions.While I find the published "numbers"useful in comparing a similar tool to a similar tool I find that is NOT always a valid test conclusion to how the tool will perform in the bent iron world of real life.Some do decent "numbers"in the lab but do not perform so well in the field with a so-so operator,while a unit that does a middle of the road job in the lab may do a real good job in the field in the right hands. Again,these are all subjective.Holmatro's CORE? I'm not yet convinced it's the way to go.We've used Holmatro for years with the "paired"hoses without any problems.If Genisis works for you,you get good service,and everybody uses it,that would be the way to go.Around here it's mostly Holmatro and Amkus,and most of the extricators can run each others equipment with a fair degree of proficiency. Of course I'm one of guys that thinks a 'cip saw has a purpose. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shrek85tsvfd
    Weber/Genesis doesn't go thru the UL testing here because TUV is equal in the rest of the world.


    Shrek, since you speak with some authority on the TUV "testing" issue, I wonder if you could help provide some information? According to the standard, in order to produce compliant tools, the certifcation organization must provide a listing service whereby a prospective purchaser is able to verify that the specific brand and model they are considering purchasing is, in fact, compliant. The stanard recommends that prospective purchasers do this. I am able to find these listing for tools that are certified compliant by UL on their website. Do you know how one could find the listing for certified compliant Genesis tools?
    Last edited by paintmered; 05-15-2006 at 09:36 PM.

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    I use both Hurst and Amkus on a regular basis. Addison has Amkus and Winfield owns Hurst. Both are newer sets and both get the job done. The new Amkus cutters we have have a swivel handle which is nice. Model 21 cutter.
    I like the twist handle so I guess I like amkus better.
    Never had a preformance issue lately. I've used OLD hurst stuff and sometimes it had a problem doing the job. (mix of maintenance and capabilities) but the new stuff work vey well.

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