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  1. #41
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    Is it just me, or is it a bit apparent that a lot of the selection process comes down to personal preference and "feel"? We recently went through the purchasing process on a set-up. Tried Amkus and Hurst, had guys with first hand experience with Champion, Genesis, Halmotro, and TnT. Finally narrowed it down to Hurst and Amkus.

    The thing I saw was a lot of "I like this feature" and "I don't like this." Mostly, because of the controls! Had guys that liked the "twist throttle" type controls of the Amkus, and guys that hated it. Same with the thumbwheel on the Hurst Centaurs.

    Basically, we ended up making the decision based on putting the tools to the car. What seemed to cut/spread best, what felt good and felt like we had better control of while operating, and compatibility with some of the neighboring departments for mutual aid. Interesting process, but fun! How many times can you come up with an excuse to play with rescue tools and tear things up with no pressure!


  2. #42
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    Catch22, It almost never comes down to performance after the dust settles. Typically departments set up demos with all the vendors, cut up some really old cars that are not wrecked, then base thier decision on factors that could have been dug up without doing the demo. These factors are usually compatability, price and a little bit of "I like the color of this tool, I like how fast that tool is, controls etc"

    Honestly, its a Chevy vs. Ford vs. Dodge deal at the end of the day.

    I think when making a decision that will effect the department for the next ten to twenty years, service, safety and longevity should play a major role in decision making.

    Ill toss my two cents in the bucket while I step off my soap box.

  3. #43
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    Default Hurst Service DOD Germany

    Hylander81,

    This is a reply to your request for companies that service Hurst and Centaur tools in Germany.

    Our company sells and services Hurst tools to DOD facilities worldwide. Since you are with the Air Force in Germany you must be located at either Ramstein or Spangdahlem. We travel to both of these bases about 3-4 times a year. Ramstein has purchased a number of Hurst systems from us. I will be traveling back to Germany later this spring and if you would like to review the current Hurst product line just let me know.

    Drop me and email with your contact information if you would like to meet with me on my next trip.

    www.nlloyd@lncurtis.com

    Thanks

  4. #44
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    Genesis and forget the rest.

  5. #45
    firefighter7160
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    I really dont care if its a port-a-power,K-12, or a winch as long as it get the people out..... But we got Hurst they work good.

  6. #46
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    6602,How many brands of tools have you qualified on and on what criteria do you base your statement?Also,how many years/hours do you have doing vehicle extrication? Nothing in your profile would lead me to such a sweeping blanket statement. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-08-2006 at 08:32 AM.

  7. #47
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    I'll put my 2 cents in after this brewhaha. Hurst is the oldest rescue tool manufacturer. Weber/Genesis is the second oldest(year after Hurst started).
    Yes, Genesis and Weber are one in the same, basically. Just like the first Amkus tools were Lukas when they started there gradual switch. Centaur is basically Lukas as well as the newer Hurst tools are Lukas/Centaur tools in low pressure with Hurst stickers on them. I still have an Amkus spreader with amkus stickers and Lukas/German engraving on the cylinder. My Hurst extricator has Lukas blades on it.
    Weber/Genesis doesn't go thru the UL testing here because TUV is equal in the rest of the world. And TUV is accepted in more countries than UL so why pay twice for the same certification. Weber/Genesis has 70% more sales in the rest of the world than in the US. So that's why they use a more universally accepted testing company. Weber/Genesis is the largest produced tool in the world. Sorry, this is a fact because Holmatro tried to claim they had the most produced tool in the world and this ended in litigation in Europe. And Weber/Genesis far exceeded anyboby elses claims. Enough said. Most other companies put alot more money into advertising than Weber/Genesis does. Perception is huge.
    My opinion is ultimately you have to use the tool and see what your crew can handle and use safely.
    I still prefer the NFPA ratings ABCDE of the tool over anything else in my comparisons. Sorry again, Genesis has the highest NFPA ratings of most tools, overall. They have several new tools coming out very soon. Genesis and Holmatro publish all there NFPA ratings, Amkus has one cutter they show rated and I haven't seen anyone else's. I scowered the Resqtek site and found no ratings like was earlier suggested. Most companies I've called won't give out there ratings because of how poor most are.
    Yes I prefer Genesis. We had a rescue with older Hurst and a rescue with brand new Amkus tools and switched everything over to Genesis in one swoop. At my career dept and my volly company, we used them for a number of years and every dept in the county had Genesis.
    I was impressed with their setup at FDIC and the demos behind the building with Genesis.
    Maybe somebody can answer me one question regarding Holmatro's core. If you are using their tools and your hand becomes pinned how do shut off the power the tool? They have eliminated their dump valves. One of their salesman told me it would never happen. I asked him again what if it did and he wouldn't answer. You have a tool under 10,500 psi and their hot disconnect will not work under pressure. You have to shut the power unit down and connect a new tool and hose. Just something to think about. Stay safe.

  8. #48
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Shrek,Since when were Lukas/Centaur LOW pressure tools? To the best of my recollection they are/have always been HIGH pressure tools.The only people that I know of REGULARLY using LOW pressure are Hurst(genuine hurst)and ResQtec.I'm in agreement with Medic,as a regular user of many different tools.I've yet to find a system that I find VASTLY superior to another.All will do a good job when placed in a competent operators hands.My testing on tools is done in field under normal operating conditions.While I find the published "numbers"useful in comparing a similar tool to a similar tool I find that is NOT always a valid test conclusion to how the tool will perform in the bent iron world of real life.Some do decent "numbers"in the lab but do not perform so well in the field with a so-so operator,while a unit that does a middle of the road job in the lab may do a real good job in the field in the right hands. Again,these are all subjective.Holmatro's CORE? I'm not yet convinced it's the way to go.We've used Holmatro for years with the "paired"hoses without any problems.If Genisis works for you,you get good service,and everybody uses it,that would be the way to go.Around here it's mostly Holmatro and Amkus,and most of the extricators can run each others equipment with a fair degree of proficiency. Of course I'm one of guys that thinks a 'cip saw has a purpose. T.C.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrek85tsvfd
    Weber/Genesis doesn't go thru the UL testing here because TUV is equal in the rest of the world.


    Shrek, since you speak with some authority on the TUV "testing" issue, I wonder if you could help provide some information? According to the standard, in order to produce compliant tools, the certifcation organization must provide a listing service whereby a prospective purchaser is able to verify that the specific brand and model they are considering purchasing is, in fact, compliant. The stanard recommends that prospective purchasers do this. I am able to find these listing for tools that are certified compliant by UL on their website. Do you know how one could find the listing for certified compliant Genesis tools?
    Last edited by paintmered; 05-15-2006 at 09:36 PM.

  10. #50
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    I use both Hurst and Amkus on a regular basis. Addison has Amkus and Winfield owns Hurst. Both are newer sets and both get the job done. The new Amkus cutters we have have a swivel handle which is nice. Model 21 cutter.
    I like the twist handle so I guess I like amkus better.
    Never had a preformance issue lately. I've used OLD hurst stuff and sometimes it had a problem doing the job. (mix of maintenance and capabilities) but the new stuff work vey well.

  11. #51
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    My company has AMKUS. We have a variety of spreading, cutting, and jacking tools and pumps from nearly new to antique (reserve-LUKAS with AMKUS label---It's the antique). We have been pleased with the performance, weight, balance, and ease of operation. Our rescue techs have had classes where use of multiple brands is required for completion and they like the AMKUS better. I suppose they are pre-biased because that's what we own. We did research and tests when we bought the first new stuff about 15 years ago so that infomation is no longer valid...There were only three major Americian brands then, Hurst, Homatro, & Amkus (At least that's all the ones worth looking at at the time that were marketed in our area). We have been pleased and they have worked well for us.
    Both then, and now, I have learned that numbers are not everything. Where on the arm or blade was the measurement taken, at what angle, how far open/closed, and from what angle are all marketing tricks that can be used to make a tool appear more powerful. Bottom line does it work for you and do the job you need/expect. Then there is the question of newer and more "powerful" equipment becoming available. And don't forget, for many of us, "can we afford to buy something new?"
    We are looking into what "super cutter" we can purchase that will work with our AMKUS pumps (pressure and oil) and what pump will best run some of the new more "powerful" cutters. The first and second generation cutters are not sufficient to cut some of the new harder metals being used in some cars and guide rail I-beams.
    Be Safe and Get The Job Done.
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  12. #52
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    Lot of good points in this discussion. Especially the opionions based on "trying them all for yourself" and finding the tool that is best for your needs and budget. I have even heard the the all too true arguement of "you get what you pay for", spend a little less now and work on it more, or worse yet, not be able to work on it. Maybe even have to replace it in 5 years, vs. spend more, get a proven brand, and have it 20 years.
    I do hate to hear of folks mixing brands. A department with two different complete systems is one thing, that is a training issue only, making sure everyone is familiar with both. But add a brand A cutter into a brand B system is asking for trouble. Liability wise, NFPA issues, warranty issues, safety issues, the list goes on and on. Try to avoid it, most honest manufacturers will warn against it, not salesmen, but the actual tool manufacturer. Also, most companies make a big enough cutter/spreader, whatever you wish, that you can maintain a "system" and not have to add in another. If you, then maybe it is time to find another brand that is keeping up with the changing face of extrication.

    Just my three cents.

    Be safe

  13. #53
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    Hrt10,And even that train of thought is evolving and not just on a salesman's pitch.For example a Resqtec tool can be ordered FROM THE FACTORY set up with Holmatro's fittings,pressures,and compatible fluid.Others mfgs do this as well.So something that was virtually unheard of five or so years ago is both do-able and Ok with the tool builder.Just when you get used to the "rules"they change again. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-16-2006 at 09:17 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Hrt10,And even that train of thought is evolving and not just on a salesman's pitch.For example a Resqtec tool can be ordered FROM THE FACTORY set up with Holmatro's fittings,pressures,and compatible fluid.Others mfgs do this as well.So something that was virtually unheard of five or so years ago is both do-able and Ok with the tool builder.Just ehen you get used to the "rules"they change again. T.C.
    Rescue101, the example that you cite may make it seem that you may be getting a tool that is set up with a competitor's couplings, etc. right FROM THE FACTORY. However, isn't Resqtec really a marketing organization, and the tools actually manufactured in Holland by ZUMRO? Is it really the case that this is OK with the tool builder?
    Last edited by paintmered; 05-15-2006 at 09:35 PM.

  15. #55
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    I was not trying to start a whole other subject. However, Holmatro is the one that first clued me on the not mixing brands, I then get the same story from Hurst/Centaur. This was after a salesman selling another high pressure tool stated his manufacturer would ship tools with any kind of coupling. I later found out directly from that Tool manufacturer that they indeed did put just about any kind of coupler a customer wanted on tools, but it was not for interoperability. The rep stated that while they would not tell you "not" to hook theirs into another system, that from a liabilitly stand point, he would not tell me it was ok either. The optional couplings were simply a way of pleasing the customer, a lot of people liked Holmatro's quick connect type, others liked the locking couplers, etc.
    Some will swear it is o.k. to mix systems, (mostly salesmen) I have yet to see it in writing from anyone, and I have asked the major brands, and few of the new players also.

  16. #56
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    Resqtec is not the only company doing it.Others have,or are in the process of considering/or implementing it.As to the legalities/or internal politics,they vary company by company.In todays tight budgets some wish to upgrade their tools without buying an entire system.And the tool companies are beginning to see this.Am I a big fan of mixing equipment? No. With compatible fluids and pressures,will they give you good service? Yes. Is it right for your agency? Not a question I can answer.So like every other issue we bring up,I don't think there is a "carved in stone"answer.But I think you'll see more of it in the future.Just my opinion. T.C.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2415
    5000 PSI systems were great for our grandparents, do you have a dial up connection still?

    Simple question. Which would you rather have blow when its in your hand, a 10K line or a 5K line? I know which I'd pick.
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  18. #58
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    Default Hardly deserves a dignifying response.

    Ok, this subject is getting weak.
    Come on, do you really think there would be much difference. This arguemant was over 20 years ago. Either way you went, severe damage would occur, you would not be able to tell which pressure had caused it.
    However, to answer your question, I guess since most 5000 psi systems use corrosive fluid, I would opt for 10,500 psi pressure mineral oil.

  19. #59
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    I'd go for the 10K mineral oil also vs. the 5K corrosive fluid.
    Let's talk tools, not what ifs!
    BB

  20. #60
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    5K "corrosive" fluid, you must be talking about Phoenix using the water/glycol mix??

    From: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemi.../corrosiv.html

    Corrosives are materials that can attack and chemically destroy exposed body tissues. Corrosives can also damage or even destroy metal. They begin to cause damage as soon as they touch the skin, eyes, respiratory tract, digestive tract, or the metal. They might be hazardous in other ways too, depending on the particular corrosive material.

    Most corrosives are either acids or bases. Common acids include hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, chromic acid, acetic acid and hydrofluoric acid. Common bases are ammonium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide (caustic potash) and sodium hydroxide (caustic soda).

    Other chemicals can be corrosive too. Check the supplier labels on chemical product containers.

    It is wise to treat unknown materials as very hazardous until they are positively identified.

    Corrosive materials are present in almost every workplace. Acids, bases (which include caustics or alkalis), and other chemicals may be corrosive. Everyone who works with corrosives must be aware of their hazards and how to work safely with them.


    Certainly with all your knowledge of rescue tools, you would understand that the phosphate ester used in rescue tools is neither an acid or a base... it has a pH of 7.0.

    Check the MSDS for MCS2361: www.wfrfire.com/website/msds/mcs_2361.htm

    Does it hurt when you get in your eyes? So does hair shampoo, soda, beer, gasoline, and most other fluids that can get in your eye. Does it injure your skin when you touch it? No it does not.

    I'll talk tools anytime. Know the truth, not what a salesman tells you.

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