1. #1
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    Default What Not To Do In Training Videos, Continued

    Hmmm...ok Probies:

    Did these guys use:
    a) A combustible liquid such as Kerosene as the accelerant at a demolition training burn?
    or
    b) A flammable liquid such as Gasoline as the accelerant at a demolition training burn?

    While it's a huge video and will take about 10 minutes to download (broadband).

    Those of you with spincter control issues when surprised will need to take this time to pull on your Depends, because when "it" happens, you will **** your pants. Seriously.

    http://inetdocs.loudoun.gov/fire/doc...rdamburndo.mpg

    If you wait to the very end, you will see "it" again in slow motion.

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    Ok, I got it down to about 4 or 5 minutes to download:

    http://www.d90.us/fire/amsterdamburndo.mpeg

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    so....what really happend. looked like gas to me. but it must have been a lit to level that house. also, anyone know how those firemen did...the ones who looked like they took the brunt of the explosion?

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    What I was able to dig up on background:

    http://www.firehouse.com/training/ne...2/0430_ny.html

    http://www.firehouse.com/training/ne...2/0429_ny.html

    From the first link:
    Saturday's exercise in Amsterdam was far different, (Cranesville ***'t Chief) Beyer said. No one was inside the building. And the district followed protocols for live training established by the National Fire Protection Association, even though New York fire districts are not legally required to do so, he said.

    Yeah, right.

    There are reasons 1403 says no liquids in acquired structures, and only combustible liquids with a flash point above 100* F in specially designed structures.

    Even if you're going to squint and say they weren't training in the building...the alarm bells should have been going off "Hmmm, why does 1403 never allow flammable liquids?"

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    HOLY SH*T!!!!

    Amazing. Was anyone killed or seriously injured? (I have not taken time to read the associated articles yet)


    *Mark
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

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    Default

    There are no words to describe how that video makes me feel.

    I am sitting here practiacally slack-jawed at this.
    I.A.C.O.J. "The Cork"

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    WOW! All I have to say is I'm glad I don't live anywhere near any of these places!

    FTM-PTB

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    WTF caused that?
    Visor down......visor down

    You can hear the guy on the tape saying something about it burning towards the camera. To old for natural gas, dont see a propane tank, gun powder, take an enormous amount of fuel, gun powder maybe..........whatever it was it reacted terribly with that flare
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

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    According to the articles, the worst injury was a jeg fracture. Everyone lived. Could they have poured gasoline throughout the house and when they threw the flare in all the vapors inside the house exploded? In any case, everyone was VERY lucky to survive that.
    28 P.R.I.D.E.
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    I'm pretty sure there was no way that was a 1403 compliant burn. If I recall correctly, 1403 requires a building inspector to issue a certificate of occupancy. I'd be shocked if that building, which as the narrator says, is 'gutted' gets such a certificate.
    Hope no one was hurt.

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    I believe what the old man was trying to point out to the kids was the structure had been weakened to encourage it to collapse towards them. (Looks like there was another house down hill on the C/D corner).

    Fred, it just boggles my mind.

    I guess maybe I have rose colored glasses. I joined a fire company when I was 16, and remember back then when we had live burns the Chiefs & senior former officers would talk about taking nearly every step that's in NFPA 1403. And the few we didn't meet, we still did safely (like using small amounts of Kerosene and never gasoline on controlled burns).

    I just can't believe how often really stupid **** like this goes on. Hell, I can even see rednecks blowing up a house. I still can't phathom the Maryland "lets go into a fully involved shed and sit there while everyone else looks on with a thumb up their ***" video.

    Total, apathetic, cluelessness.

    And most of what we do is not that complicated.

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    Chief Squirrel --

    The "certificate of occupancy" doesn't appear as that phrase in 1403.

    I would assume meeting building code is required for purpose-built training buildings. Not for acquired structures like this.

    Considering in my area CO requires items like electrical power & a working stove there's not really anyway a CO would be compatible with an acquired burn building!

    1403 is available at: http://www.ci.yakima.wa.us/services/fire/NFPA1403.pdf

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    "Hmmm, them gasoline vapors
    kinda build up....better throw that flare
    in Skippy so you don't get burnt."

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    Dalmation - Thanks for calling me on that.
    After reviewing my 1403 book, no certificate is required - however, locally, we're required to have the building inspected by an inspector to check for 'unsafe conditions' and to make sure things like handrails are secure, all holes are patched, floor openings are appropriately covered, stair treads are in place, etc.

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    Im pretty sure the guys used gasoline, and a lot of it at that. When the flare was thrown in, boom goes the vapors. We used to show this video in an NFPA rules class I took a few years ago.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    That's wild. Thank god no one was killed.

    That one is definitely going to get some distribution.

    Another good arguement for 1403.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    Another good arguement for 1403.
    Should you really need a written code to tell you not to do that?!?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    HOLY SH@#!!!!!!!! Now that's a video that definitely shows what NOT to do...maybe if they hadn't spent so much time yelling "SHOWTIME", someone
    (maybe the 2 guys in the white helmets) would have realized that this was not a good idea. Boy, they weren't kidding when they yelled "SHOWTIME"...it certainly was a good show!!

    Just my 2 cents...Stay Safe...

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    Default

    As soon as I saw the two white helmets milling around I knew something "unexpected" was going to happen. At least the guy talking in the background told the kids to kick the boards off the road. He even said to watch out for nails,which seems like more of a warning than the guy lighting the building had.

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    Exclamation

    WOW ! and I will second everyone's HOLY S&*T ! I hope they know some good proctologists as I wonder their *********s have opened up yet ? And this was definetly NOT a 1403 compliant burn, I was expecting something to happen, but not THAT !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    What the frack?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Chief Squirrel...I don't have a problem with something like that (calling in a disinterested 3rd party). You might be able to also tap some experienced former officers / instructors to serve as the safety crew to review the building & plan; heck you might even be able to work within your county and ask a department not involved in the drill to provide 2 or 3 officers to serve as safety & ignition just as another set of eyeballs independent of what "was planned".

    ChicagoFF...no, we shouldn't.

    However, as you can see from these videos, and from incidents like...
    Lairdsville, NY (Brand new member who was issued turnout gear that evening and never wore an airpack before was placed on the 2nd floor of an acquired structure. A couch was ignited on the 1st floor, at the base of the stairwell that was the only means of egress from the 2nd floor. AND THERE WASN'T EVEN A SINGLE PIECE OF APPARATUS ON SCENE -- they where back at the firehouse waiting to be called for the RIT Rescue assignment...)

    Greenwood, DE (***'t Chief passed an area with fire and continued to spritz the attic with Diesel, fire behind him intensified and cut off his sole means of egress).

    Osceola, FL (FFs in searching in an acquired structure had their egress blocked by foam-rubber mattresses which lit off and caused a flash-over).

    These and those all involved fundamental things than any fireman past the probationary stage and certainly any fire officer should have understood.

    We all suffer head-up-our-*** sometimes, which is why we should take time to plan these events in advance to minimize the dangers.

    Do we need a standard? Unfortunately, yes because people keep forgetting or where never taught stuff they must know.

    And while you should read all of 1403, it's really pretty simple (I'm paraphrasing here, but I'm pretty sure I'm not violating any of it):

    1) You will make sure your acquired structure is structurally sound, and that you have provided for seperate means of egress on each floor.

    2) You will plan the evolutions in advance.

    3) You will have a chalk talk before each evolution where you tell the crews what the goal of the burn is, what is hoped to be learned, what skills will be practiced, where the fire will be, and who are the safety officers & safety team. You will make it clear who are the Officers & Team members are and what their radio IDs will be if you aren't working as normal "companies"; you will make clear who the Officer-in-Charge and other commanders are and what their roles are; you will make clear what the radio frequency is to operate on; you will make clear what the "real life" emergency code is (for example, use "Mayday" as part of the drill, "No Joy" will be the word you will use if you actually experience a real-life mayday during the drill) (Also, make sure the dispatch center knows about the drill, especially if a "mayday" is planned so they don't hear that and hit the panic button).

    4) You will walk the Firefighters & Officers through the building prior to any burning so they are all familiar with the general configuration and get "muscle memory" of the location of stairs, exits, etc.

    5) You will have a safety hose team, supplied by a seperate water source, in place. This means at least 2 Engines, with the Safety crew's engine's booster tank not used except...in an emergency.

    You will have a FAST that is "real life" FAST (i.e. not planning to be used as part of the drill).

    Provided the firefighters going through the burn evolutions are sufficiently experienced, they may be rotated through the safety teams. (Burn evolution, Burn evolution, rest cycle, Safety & FAST cycle, lunch, repeat for the afternoon). If you like to beat yourselves up, that'll get you through 4 bottles in a day.

    If the FFs are inexperienced, then you will bring in experienced firefighters to serve on Safety & FAST.

    6) You will have one or more dedicated safety officers, who are not involved in operations or training. Just watching.

    7) You will have one individual, preferably a very experienced veteran (20+ years IMHO) with a good head on his shoulders, who will be the ignitor of all fires and will have absolute and un-overideable authority to refuse to ignite any fire if he feels the situation is unsafe for any reason.

    8) You will have EMS on scene. If possible, ALS. At a minimum, BLS with Trauma kits, O2, Burn kits, and defib. (Again, may be experienced FFs on an "off" cycle covering EMS).

    9) You will not burn hydrocarbons, in a liquid or solid form, unless it's in an environment that is extremely highly controlled.

    10) You will not have crews work with fire between themselves and their means of egress, unless a charged hoseline & crew is in place and dedicated to control that fire.

    11) Every evolution will be setup to teach or reinforce lessons. We're not burning for fun, we are not burning to make your gear look crusty. We're here to practice what we know about fire; to show firefighters fire behavior in a building, to get use to the sounds and sights of a fire, to practice our skills of searching, ventilation, nozzlemanship. We're not here to shout Geronimo and jump in with no plan or goal. We will not take our eye off the ball, we will not be lazy, we will not socialize instead of being officers, we will not put people in danger because we will watch their backs, we will learn, and we will find enjoyment in knowing at the end of the day we had a damn good day of training.

    Maybe I'm not quite perfect with the 11 above, but I bet you could make a one page 1403 summary that is damn close to that.

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    Here is the link to an article that gives more information on the explosion.


    http://www.firehouse.com/training/ne...2/0429_ny.html

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    This video has been in my part of NY for a few years now. The FTC would show it often but never made copies b/c of the litigation..........

    This is the kind of stuff I mean in regards to the Everyone Goes Home thread.........


    They also have another one of a dept in "Lidville", NY......you all would vomit if you ever get the chance to see it. Again....no copied b/c of litigation.....and to protect the utterly stupid.........basically.....a fire in a 2.5 story split ranch, fire out 1 window.....3 line stretched and dry on the front lawn, no one enters to search, but the do open the front door, and leav it open, about 6 minutes go by before any line is charged, fire is out 2 windows now, then these heros operate 2 line from the front lawn, mind you with the front door open, finally they advance in and have to fight the fire everywere the pushed it, anyway, after about 45 minutes of this abortion, they are all standing outside shaking hands and patting backs....excitement ensues, and they pull out a body......a dead guy......1 hour after the got there, and he wasn't badly burned.......If you ever get the chance to see the video........you would agree........

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    To all who post comments on these boards... I am from the City of Amsterdam Fire Department ....WE DID NOT BLOW THIS HOUSE UP! ....The department that is 1 mile east of us (Cranesville Volunteer Fire Department)had the pleasure. We are a career department and would never ever do this type of assine boneheaded stunt. The worst part about the whole thing is after they blew up a half a dozen guys or so they never called us to come help them out.......they called MA from 10 miles away...again ....WE DID NOT BLOW THIS HOUSE UP!...thank for your time in this matter
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