1. #1
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    Post Aerial Platform Apparatus

    What make , & model aerial platform would your fire department purchase when they have to replace a older truck in the near future. Pick one of the following apparatus and why you like it ! Rear mount tower , Mid-Mount , Smeal , Pierce , Seagrave , Kme , E-One , Crimson , Sutphen , Aerialscope , ALF , Central , Ferrara , Metz , etc. Also would it be built with a " Steel " -or- " Aluminum " ladder ?
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 03-05-2006 at 07:47 PM.

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    Here we go again. O.K. I'll bite.

    E-One rearmount 95' LT on a Cyclone III chassis for the following reasons:

    1) Aluminum aerial construction - Won't rust from the inside or outside
    2) Aluminum body - Better than the alternatives especially for body work
    3) Aluminum cab - Great strength and safety
    4) Widest aerial on the market making it safer and easier to climb
    5) Tall and convenient hand rail height making it safer and easier to climb
    6) Superior tip and distrbuted load ratings
    7) Upgrade to industrial waterway for insane GPM capabilities from the bucket
    8) Outrigger system ease of use and NO PINS
    9) Short jack spread - If you can open the cab doors you can throw the jacks
    10) And they have never had a failure

    Just my thoughts and opinions.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Personally, I like Pierce and Sutphen.
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    [QUOTE=STATION2]Here we go again. O.K. I'll bite.

    E-One rearmount 95' LT on a Cyclone III chassis for the following reasons:

    1) Aluminum aerial construction - Won't rust from the inside or outside


    Aluminum does not rust is correct, it corrodes. Which is just as bad as rust.

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    I prefer that it is surface oxidation. Still not as bad rust. Just an opinion.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    My opinion:
    Pierce, but avoid the Skyarm. It operates slower than a straight stick, and the articulating jib sways enough to make you sick. Have to move it slowly and feather the movement carefully. I do like the way the platform swivels side to side and tips down for easier step off to a roof, not sure if that is available on all the platforms or just the Skyarm.

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    Talking choices

    Give me one that is built right and won't break within the first year, has a KISS electrical system and smacks the engineer if he messes it up.

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    What I would pick and what the City would purchase on low bid is an entirely different matter...

    First thjing I would do is contact somoone like Mike Wilbur to help drzaw up specifications based on the community's needs.

    Consider the cost of a new aerial or platform... anywhere from $500K to over $1 million.

    If we were spending the above amounts adding living space or new apparatus bays, we would be hiring an architect to draw up plans, wouldn't we?

    Same difference here.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    After working on Pierce's, Maxim's, and E-One's I really like the E-One 95' rear mount, a solid stick. I've played with the Bronto, increadible work platform, clearly built with a lot of input from FF's, but frankly its too complicated, too many electrical components and no manual over rides. E-One is also offering a mid-mount 95' if thats more your flavor, but I've yet to get to work with one.

    As far as rust vs corrosion, Aluminum Oxide is a very hard protective coating, sometimes used as the top layer of laminate flooring to protect the picture of the wood grain under it. Its also used to grind glass for lens. It has a hardness of 9 (diamonds are 10). Aluminum oxide is a very stable compound, unlike steel, once aluminum's surface is covered with oxide it will not oxidize further. I've seen 20+ year old E-One's from Boston and other places where the stick looks a little dull, but no other signs of corrosion.
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    Default Aerial Platforms

    I would choose the Aerial device that would do what is asked of without having to operate a bunch of overrides, is very user freindly, has the largest payloads avalible during extreame operations. Has the abillity to operate on an 14% grade. Also one with a good adjustment range on the outriggers.

    At minimum 1000 Lbs. Dry and 500 Lbs. wet while flowing 2000 GPM.

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    Talking Sutphen

    I would hands down choose a Sutphen aerial platform.

    1. Aluminum aerial that is lighter and stronger than steel.

    2. Aerial design of the box boom is unmatched in strength.

    3. The box boom allows for twin masterstreams on the outsides of the bucket leaving the front open for rescues.

    4. Stainless steel bodies that last for ages.

    5. Midmounts for lighter overall apparatus.

    6. Industry leading set-up time.

    Want more??
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    Skysthelimit: An Aerialscope huh! Me too! Though you underestimated the tip while flowing which remains at full capacity(1000lbs). Its the only one without all the BS electronics. How many remounted Sutphens do you see? Peirce?ALF? Only one really is tough enough to last. The downsides are price and size. We just couldn't swing the Scope when the bids came back. Over 100K more with no options as opposed to a full spec ALF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    Skysthelimit: An Aerialscope huh! Me too! Though you underestimated the tip while flowing which remains at full capacity(1000lbs). Its the only one without all the BS electronics. How many remounted Sutphens do you see? Peirce?ALF? Only one really is tough enough to last. The downsides are price and size. We just couldn't swing the Scope when the bids came back. Over 100K more with no options as opposed to a full spec ALF.
    A new Seagrave Aerialscope would be nice but with the price tag of $ 900,000 , it just won't happen with our tight budget with only $25k- 50k put a side for capital each year. looks like we will go with a refurbed scope and do a lease purchase for 10-12 years!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    A new Seagrave Aerialscope would be nice but with the price tag of $ 900,000 , it just won't happen with our tight budget with only $25k- 50k put a side for capital each year. looks like we will go with a refurbed scope and do a lease purchase for 10-12 years!!
    Yeah, I don't know about that. We looked at the cost of refurbing, the warranty, maintenance and a realistic life span and decided on new. Not the scope either. Will someone rufurb a Scope and do a lease purchase? Again after weighing out all the costs over a lengthy period, 25-30 years, buying new is cheaper. Longer life, fewer maintnence costs early on, trade in value of the new at a reasonable time and buying another new. Vs. rebuild, increased maintenance from day 1, no warranty after 1 year, shorter life span and no trade-in value. You'll need to buy three trucks in the same time as we will buy one and a half new ones.

    Simple math also applies:
    Rebuilt Scope: 500-600K (always asking how long can this boom last?)
    New Scope: 900K (33% more than used)
    Will the new scope outlast the rebuilt by more than 1/3 its life? Most likely!Plus at 20 years you can remount the new scope boom on another chassis if you still like the rebuild idea. You own the boom and know its history.

    And lastly, you'll have to put up with someone seeing a neighboring department buy a brand new Smeal for $550K and hope yours can outlast it.

    (No I wouldn't buy the Smeal!)

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    Well we just did last fall..

    Replaced a '75 Sutphen 85' mid mount bucket with a Pierce 95' mid mount bucket with the big bucket and twin guns, 2000 gpm pump.

    One thing to think about when going for size is not only height of buildings in your area but the setback. Just because a building is only 4 or 5 stories, doesn't mean you will be able to reach it with a 75' aerial.

    And like Gonzo said maybe talk with Wilbur. He did a class at our dept. just after we got our new Tower, that was informative. One thing he said(I think it was him anyway) was be careful of the companies, they will sell you anything you want...... whether it makes sense or not.....

    Link to our Tower 2 photo
    Last edited by F52Westside; 03-16-2006 at 10:05 AM.
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    I dont know about Sutphen having the Industry leading set-up time. I have seen their 110 ft mid mount and its not that quick to set up the out riggers
    Andrew
    Firefighter/EMT
    New Jersey

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    Quote Originally Posted by F52Westside
    Well we just did last fall..

    Replaced a '75 Sutphen 85' mid mount bucket with a Pierce 95' mid mount bucket with the big bucket and twin guns, 2000 gpm pump.

    One thing to think about when going for size is not only height of buildings in your area but the setback. Just because a building is only 4 or 5 stories, doesn't mean you will be able to reach it with a 75' aerial.

    And like Gonzo said maybe talk with Wilbur. He did a class at our dept. just after we got our new Tower, that was informative. One thing he said(I think it was him anyway) was be careful of the companies, they will sell you anything you want...... whether it makes sense or not.....

    Link to our Tower 2 photo
    Real nice looking " Pierce " tower, what is the O.A.L of the truck and final price tag?

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    EFD,Industry leading set up time? Uh,NO! A VERY nice platform but in set up time a Metz will be jacked and 100' in the air BEFORE you can get the jacks set on the Sutphen.I know of no aerial device that has a FASTER set up time than a Metz.In overall abilities,now that's a different issue. Sutphens in my opinion are an "odd"looking rig but they've got a fantastic waterway and are a rugged unit. In fact we've been looking at them for some time now along with a couple others for a future purchase.Time will tell. T.C.

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    Town of Vernon Fire Department Tower 141
    95' E-One Mid Mount
    Cyclone II Cab
    2000 GPM Hale Pump

    Tower 141

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    Quote Originally Posted by TVFDT141
    Town of Vernon Fire Department Tower 141
    95' E-One Mid Mount
    Cyclone II Cab
    2000 GPM Hale Pump

    Tower 141
    The city of Perth Amboy, N.J. has taken delivery of a 2005 HP95 midmount platform with a 2000gpm pump,I think it cost them $ 850,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    The city of Perth Amboy, N.J. has taken delivery of a 2005 HP95 midmount platform with a 2000gpm pump,I think it cost them $ 850,000.
    I think that we were in that ballpark. Its an amazing piece of machinery. Drivers beware of the rear overhang. We have had few issues being # 5 or 6 off of the production line. Everything which has been addressed and fixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TVFDT141
    . We have had few issues being # 5 or 6 off of the production line. Everything which has been addressed and fixed.
    You think its all worked out? They had less than 25 on the street last fall and now all the full page E-One ads placed in all the rags in the past three months have all the products EXCEPT the mid-mount?

    Does the ladder still "buck" on retraction? As I think I said before, we saw one that was in service for two days that had the bucking issue and was passed off as needing grease?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    You think its all worked out? They had less than 25 on the street last fall and now all the full page E-One ads placed in all the rags in the past three months have all the products EXCEPT the mid-mount?

    Does the ladder still "buck" on retraction? As I think I said before, we saw one that was in service for two days that had the bucking issue and was passed off as needing grease?
    To my knowledge all issues have been worked out. It is also my understanding that exceptional attention was given to us as well by the dealer. Very infrequetly the ladder will as you have said "buck" on retraction. I do not know the reasoning for it, but I can tell you my Versalift bucket truck will also infrequently do the same thing.

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    I hear you, our Versalift Fire Alarm truck does the same thing. I thought is was our heavier fire alarm technician in the bucket causing it! Obviously dealer service is extremely important. All trucks will have issues and if you can minimize down time with a quality dealer thats huge!

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    Talking Metz??

    I don't claim to know much about the Metz product but I do know Sutphen. I can have a 75'er flying in less than 15 sec. Anyone would be hard pressed to do better. Short of arriving with the outriggers half extended. LOL
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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