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  1. #1
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Default Everyone Goes Home

    When I was at Firehouse World a few weeks ago, I spent a bunch of time "kicking it" with the NFFF folks. I was made aware of this program that was started in 2005, I believe. I am very close to the New York Liasions for the NFFF and we were discussing why we are killing ourselves.....Now....these stats are shocking......most of us are not killed while engaged in actual operations. This seems to be the easiest group to target and eliminate.

    I know this is a real sore subject for some, it hits home for me, being a LODD familiy member. But I think the NFFF is dead on with thier initiatives. And it may come as a shocker to many, but I firmly believe that all states make the NFPA FF1 and FF2 manditory, and no grandfathering......that means if Ole' Herb who is 68 can't pass the medical and a CPAT, nor wear SCBA, and perform all the other fireground tasks...then sorry Herb, time to retire. Because the one group that is accounting for so many deaths are the over 40 group. And they are sucombing to non-fire related deaths, heart-attacks and the such. I am not saying kick em' out, but I think everyone need to be held to a set standard, and if municipalities want to make thiers' stricter, that's fine too.

    One of the vollie depts that I was in was notorious for allowing members with know heart conditions, to be active members. They all just drove apparatus...which when I was a Chief I tried to change, but was shot down b/c those same members were also the Commissioners, (which seems to be everyones problem). That were we would need the help of these national standards for firefighting (I know, I contraticted myself). God forbid one of these members were to have a heart attack while driving the 45,000 lbs bomb with a full crew.

    Are we ever going to eliminate fire deaths, no....some things can't be avoided. But we can reduce the amount of death by seriously taking stock of our depts, operations, and members.

    Think about it.........

    A PROVISIONAL REPORT
    ON-DUTY FIREFIGHTER FATALITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
    Date Range 1/1/2005 to 12/31/2005

    Number of On-Duty Firefighter Fatalities: 106

    Classification:

    32 Career 30.1%
    5 Wildland Full-Time 4.71%
    2 Paid-on-Call 1.88%
    63 Volunteer 59.4%
    4 Wildland Contract 3.77%

    Number of Multiple Firefighter Fatality Incidents: 4
    Number of Wildland Firefighter Fatalities: 16

    Type of Duty:

    17 Responding 16.0%
    13 Training 12.2%
    27 On-Scene Fire 25.4%
    7 On-Scene Non-Fire 6.60%
    15 After 14.1%
    24 Other On-Duty 22.6%
    3 Returning 2.83%

    Percent of Fatalities Related to Emergency Duty: 53.7%
    Number of firefighter fatalities associated with suspicious/arson fires: 2

    Type of Incident:

    12 Wildland 11.3%
    27 Structure Fire 25.4%
    7 MVA 6.60%
    3 Hazmat 2.83%
    2 Vehicle Fire 1.88%
    4 EMS 3.77%
    2 Rescue/Extrication 1.88%
    1 False Alarm 0.94%
    40 Not Incident Related 37.7%
    5 Other 4.71%
    3 Unknown 2.83%




    Cause of Fatal Injury:

    7 Caught/Trapped 6.60%
    5 Fall 4.71%
    56 Stress/Overexertion 52.8%
    1 Exposure 0.94%
    1 Collapse 0.94%
    5 Struck by 4.71%
    26 Vehicle Collision 24.5%
    1 Lost 0.94%
    4 Other 3.77%

    Nature of Fatal Injury:

    5 Asphyxiation 4.71%
    3 Crushed 2.83%
    3 Burns 2.83%
    7 CVA 6.60%
    32 Trauma 30.1%
    2 Drowning 1.88%
    2 Electrocution 1.88%
    48 Heart Attack 45.2%
    1 Heat Exhaustion 0.94%
    3 Other 2.83%

    Age of Firefighter When the Fatal Injury Was Sustained:

    6 - Under 21
    5 - 21 to 25
    5 - 26 to 30
    20 - 31 to 40
    24 - 41 to 50
    27 - 51 to 60
    16 - 61 and Over
    3 - Unknown

    Percent of Firefighter Fatalities Under Age 40 -33.0%




    Type of Activity:

    8 S&R 7.54%
    1 Setup 0.94%
    1 IC 0.94%
    11 Advance Hose Lines 10.3%
    1 Extrication 0.94%
    2 Standby 1.88%
    14 Responding 13.2%
    1 Support 0.94%
    2 Water Supply 1.88%
    2 Scene Safety 1.88%
    36 Not Incident Related 33.9%
    8 Not On Scene 7.54%
    6 Other 5.66%
    13 Unknown 12.2%

    Time of Fatal Injury:

    8 0100-0259
    1 0300-0459
    4 0500-0659
    6 0700-0859
    6 0900-1059
    14 1100-1259
    15 1300-1459
    8 1500-1659
    11 1700-1859
    7 1900-2059
    5 2100-2259
    9 2300-0059
    12 Unknown

    Month of the Year:

    13 January 12.2%
    12 February 11.3%
    10 March 9.43%
    16 April 15.0%
    5 May 4.71%
    10 June 9.43%
    4 July 3.77%
    8 August 7.54%
    5 September 4.71%
    6 October 5.66%
    13 November 12.2%
    4 December 3.77%


    Firefighter Fatalities by State by Location of Fire Service Organization:

    4 Alabama 3.77%
    1 Arkansas 0.94%
    1 Arizona 0.94%
    9 California 8.49%
    2 Connecticut 1.88%
    2 Delaware 1.88%
    3 Florida 2.83%
    3 Georgia 2.83%
    2 Iowa 1.88%
    2 Kansas 1.88%
    6 Kentucky 5.66%
    1 Louisiana 0.94%
    1 Maryland 0.94%
    2 Michigan 1.88%
    1 Minnesota 0.94%
    3 Missouri 2.83%
    3 Mississippi 2.83%
    4 North Carolina 3.77%
    2 Nebraska 1.88%
    1 New Hampshire 0.94%
    5 New Jersey 4.71%
    2 New Mexico 1.88%
    17 New York 16.0%
    1 Oklahoma 0.94%
    1 Oregon 0.94%
    7 Pennsylvania 6.60%
    1 South Carolina 0.94%
    1 South Dakota 0.94%
    3 Tennessee 2.83%
    8 Texas 7.54%
    1 Utah 0.94%
    1 Virginia 0.94%
    1 Wisconsin 0.94%
    2 West Virginia 1.88%
    2 Wyoming 1.88%




    Firefighter Fatalities by State by Location of Fatal Incident:

    4 Alabama 3.77%
    1 Arkansas 0.94%
    1 Arizona 0.94%
    8 California 7.54%
    2 Connecticut 1.88%
    2 Delaware 1.88%
    3 Florida 2.83%
    3 Georgia 2.83%
    2 Iowa 1.88%
    2 Kansas 1.88%
    6 Kentucky 5.66%
    1 Louisiana 0.94%
    1 Maryland 0.94%
    2 Michigan 1.88%
    3 Missouri 2.83%
    3 Mississippi 2.83%
    4 North Carolina 3.77%
    1 Nebraska 0.94%
    1 New Hampshire 0.94%
    5 New Jersey 4.71%
    2 New Mexico 1.88%
    1 Nevada 0.94%
    17 New York 16.0%
    1 Oklahoma 0.94%
    1 Oregon 0.94%
    7 Pennsylvania 6.60%
    1 South Carolina 0.94%
    1 South Dakota 0.94%
    3 Tennessee 2.83%
    9 Texas 8.49%
    1 Utah 0.94%
    1 Virginia 0.94%
    1 Wisconsin 0.94%
    2 West Virginia 1.88%
    2 Wyoming 1.88%
    1 Iraq 0.94%




    16 Firefighter Life Safety Initiatives

    1. Define and advocate the need for a cultural change within the fire service relating to safety; incorporating leadership, management, supervision, accountability and personal responsibility.

    2. Enhance the personal and organizational accountability for health and safety throughout the fire service.

    3. Focus greater attention on the integration of risk management with incident management at all levels, including strategic, tactical, and planning responsibilities.

    4. All firefighters must be empowered to stop unsafe practices.

    5. Develop and implement national standards for training, qualifications, and certification (including regular recertification) that are equally applicable to all firefighters based on the duties they are expected to perform.

    6. Develop and implement national medical and physical fitness standards that are equally applicable to all firefighters, based on the duties they are expected to perform.

    7. Create a national research agenda and data collection system that relates to the initiatives.
    8. Utilize available technology wherever it can produce higher levels of health and safety.
    9. Thoroughly investigate all firefighter fatalities, injuries, and near misses.
    10. Grant programs should support the implementation of safe practices and/or mandate safe practices as an eligibility requirement.

    11. National standards for emergency response policies and procedures should be developed and championed.

    12. National protocols for response to violent incidents should be developed and championed.

    13. Firefighters and their families must have access to counseling and psychological support.

    14. Public education must receive more resources and be championed as a critical fire and life safety program.

    15. Advocacy must be strengthened for the enforcement of codes and the installation of home fire sprinklers.

    16. Safety must be a primary consideration in the design of apparatus and equipment.

    Duty and responsibility

    Make EVERY DAY a TRAINING DAY….so that…

    EVERYONE GOES HOME!

    Last edited by VinnieB; 03-05-2006 at 05:14 PM.


  2. #2
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    Because the one group that is accounting for so many deaths are the over 40 group.

    Simple solution:

    Don't count them.

    Before people get to ****ed off by that, I've run this up the flagpole years ago (5+) that the rate wasn't falling per fire.

    It's a complex set of numbers, complicated by a statistically small sample. We're talking 100 out of 750,000 or so -- 0.01% I believe that works out to...

    I'm not saying no to medical standards. Firefighters should have medical clearances appropriate to the role they fill. Older members in good health can still contribute in ways that aid the more active firefighters, and do so with very little actual risk of their death on a fireground and even less that it would adversely impact operations.

    If you're getting upset because 76 y/o Fred dropped dead directing traffic, you're not focusing on the stuff that matters.

    Hell, I'm enough of a ***** to say this: the "LODD" statistic has become so FUBAR that it should be thrown out because we've loosened up the definition beyond any meaningful bounds in the pursuit of money.

    The "LODD" statistic should be redefined to be:
    -- Deaths that occur
    ---- Responding to an emergency call;
    ---- Working on an emergency call or training, without an underlying medical condition;
    ---- From injuries that can be directly attributed to either of the above (i.e. chemical exposure that begins a direct chaing of events).

    Out goes the heart attacks 24 hours after the fact. Out goes the slip and fall in the firehouse. Out goes accidents returning from an incident or traveling to training. Don't even think about the 14 y/o riding his bike. These are not things that we do any differently from anyone else in the world.

    If you want to split it into an "insurance" LODD definition as it is today, and a "in the" LODD for purpose of managing the problem, let's do it.

    I propose limiting the LODDs we worry about to those from emergency response & work and training since those activities are unique to the fire service, and there the ones that can be controlled by good leadership and good officers.

    Our LODD rate is a good topic.

    Unfortunately, the current definition is not rational, and is driven more by how much money we can collect in benefits than looking at what makes the fire service unique and how we can do the fire service stuff more safely.

  3. #3
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    I see what you are saying. The FDNY/EMS just resently had a Lt pass away, which they made LODD, something about getting a hernia from lifting an AED. He went to the hospital and pass a few days later.

    But by definition....LODD....died in the course of his duties. So the guy who is 76 directing traffic and has a heart attack......is LODD. As is the 25 year who falls down the firehouse steps while answering a run.

    Other than making coffee in quarters, that 70 something year old has no business at fire calls. He is not going to hump hose up 4 floors, he is not going to effectively ladder a window, and he is not going to vent a roof. And if you need traffic control.....that's is what cops are for IMO.

    If we are not to count them, then they don't belong on the fire ground.

    Also....responding in POVs and apparatus. I am willing to bet that most of the members killed in these actions we probably not driving smartly.

    I mean, take a look at the resent posts....the 2 knucklehead marching straight into hell, the blown up house, the guys with the garage door. Those feats of stupidity can be directly related to training and knowledge.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190
    [i]

    I propose limiting the LODDs we worry about to those from emergency response & work and training since those activities are unique to the fire service, and there the ones that can be controlled by good leadership and good officers.

    Our LODD rate is a good topic.

    Unfortunately, the current definition is not rational, and is driven more by how much money we can collect in benefits than looking at what makes the fire service unique and how we can do the fire service stuff more safely.
    I have to disagree with you. I worry just as much about firefighters that die from work related cancers as I do other LODD. If we want to make our job safer? we need to start taking more seriously the root cause of those of our brothers who die from cancers, comunicable diseases and even heart disease. We cannot ignore them because they are a fact of life in our profession.
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

  5. #5
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    I understand what you are saying Dalmation, but I don't agree with you. I believe that the FF sitting at home in his recliner the next morning after he gets home from a job, and has a heart attack should most certainly be counted as a LODD. For the mere fact that due to the excitement and the adrenaline going he may not have felt that chest pain or thought that he pulled a muscle. Also by counting these types deaths, it clearly demonstrates that a manditory standard should be put into place regarding the health and fitness of today's FF's. I find it insanely stupid that dept's don't have a manditory fitness program (my dept included unfortionately we don't), and manditory annual phyiscals. I think that this is probably one of the areas concerning LODD's where we could make the quickest turn around when it comes to reducing the number of FF's dieing. Thats just my 2 pennies worth.

  6. #6
    Forum Member maximumflow's Avatar
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    Unhappy lodd

    as an escourt for familys of LODD's in emmitsberg each year and saddly the member of an LODD station (family) i totally disagree dalmation! for years the list of stastistics has been broken down to advise all depts. all states and all firefighters that wish to read them how we are getting killed !!! the problem is that the people at the top either don't read them, are concerned about them or awear of them. weather a FF dies from a heart attack or an injury from a fire as long as he is in the performance of his duties he is a LODD. becaause we all have varried jobs at a response you cannot differentiate one from the other. example, a ff dies in a collapes and a chief dies of a heart attack at the same response and they both received a clean bill of health the day before at their physical where is the difference? the collapes was a risk, the chief was standing out front ,but they were both doing their job. if we want to lower the stats then we must take a stronger roll in leadership of our people by providing them with the tools to make thier job safer. 1) if we don't need to go in ,don't 2) monies in the budget for physicals and fight for it !!!!
    3) stick to firefighting as we have trained and so on. one week ago 2 firefighters died in a collapes in alabama 15 min.'s after talking about the dangers of Firefighterihg by going into a building that had already had collapsed looking for hot spots. if heavy equipment was used to take the building apart they would still be here. we spend millions on apparatus, firehouses, communnications but not were it counts,Training, PPE, SCBA, tools ETC. we put so many people in leadership rolls just because its their turn than they belong there because of their experience and knowledge.
    if you die on the job ,it's a LODD. can we change this ,YES ,by being smart about how we approuch things like using heavy equipment,that would have made it 2 less.

    "there is no greater family outside our own than the brotherhood of firefighters"

    LT.Dennis

  7. #7
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I'm on Dal's side. Speaking from the volunteer side, a guy goes to a call and drives the truck. When he gets home, he builds a brick wall in his back yard. Later that night he passes from a heart attack. Well, that's 24 hours from his last call so it should be considered LODD? And you know damn well that FF's will not mention the brick wall in order to get his family the LODD benefits.

    Is a guy, while at a convention weekend, out at dinner that night after the days sessions, considered "on duty" or not? is a guy who slips down the flight of stairs at the firehouse considered as "on duty" as the guy that slips down the stairs at the firehouse while answering a call?

    I have a hard time classifying all these guys in the same was as a FF that died inside a burning building trying to save someone's life/property.


    VinnieB, the Everyone Goes Home program is a good program. We presented it to our membership this past summer and even had the Pennsylvania State Fire Commissioner come in and do his presentation. We're not 100%, but we are making steps in the right direction.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  8. #8
    Forum Member maximumflow's Avatar
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    Unhappy lodd

    bones, i couldn't agree with you more on those issues. yes i will agree the system is abused at times to get benefits. its takes away from what the system was originally created for but that is the fault of the leadership. if the leadership,as hard as it may be, filed the reports correctly, the wall would never get done.
    most states have their own policy on lodd and do not pay out on a lot of claims. in nj you have to have an autopsie by the ME and the findings consistent with the incident to receive the death benifits. not all lodd's get a payment but the mear title. if the guy eating dinner at the convention died he would be intilted to dept. and municipal but would not meat state because he was not operating at the scene of an emergency . the NFFF does not pay out any benifits only list the names of fallen firefighters as they are submitted. could we work harder to lower the list ,yes! a good start is by being truthfull when the report is filed! second is if you have a pre existing condition you retire !

    "there is no greater family outside our own than the brotherhood of firefighters"

    LT.Dennis

  9. #9
    Forum Member Smoke20286's Avatar
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    There seems a fairly clear split on this issue between career and volunteer. For me, the exposure levels to various toxins that may affect my health in future years is every bit as serious as the risk of immediate injury at the fire scene.

    6 provinces have some sort of presumptive cancer legislation here in Canada, mostly adopted within the last few years. Why? Because Firefighters are dying as a result of their jobs on a regular basis and we need to do whatever we can to stop it, and if we cannot, to look after their families.
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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