Thread: Huh?

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    Question Huh?


    Last time I checked, it was "stop, drop, and roll" and cover your face if your clothes catch on fire -- is there more to this article? What's next?


    NYC Union Discourages 'Stop, Drop And Roll'
    Updated: 03-08-2006 10:00:47 AM
    PATRICK GALLAHUE
    New York Post

    The firefighters union launched a campaign yesterday to stop, drop and throw out the most well known national catchphrase for fire safety.

    "Stop, drop and roll . . . this attacks the realities of what fires look like and how to prevent them . . . and, God forbid, should [children] face that situation, they need to know how to get out and get out quickly," said Uniformed Firefighters Association president Steve Cassidy. He endorsed an educational model yesterday that emphasizes what he says is far more practical advice - such as telling kids to get away from a fire as soon as possible, notify others and avoid playing with matches and other combustibles.

    The model is taught in a DVD by retired Emmy Award winning weatherman Dr. Frank Field.
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    There not saying if your clothes catch fire to not do stop drop and roll. What is being said is we (the firefighting community) have to do more to teach children (and IMO adults as well) about the dangers of fire beyond just if your clothes catch fire. Here is a larger article,

    Firefighters kick off campaign about fire safety

    By DEEPTI HAJELA
    Associated Press Writer

    March 7, 2006, 2:57 PM EST

    NEW YORK -- There's more to fire safety education than stop, drop and roll, firefighters say.

    New York City firefighters and a fire safety advocate launched a national fire safety education campaign on Tuesday, with the release of a DVD that attempts to show children the reality of how dangerous fires can be.

    Current fire safety education is lacking, because it doesn't do enough to really make children understand the risks they face from fire, said Steve Cassidy, president of the Uniformed Firefighters Association of Greater New York. Instead, there are catchy slogans like stop, drop and roll, which is good advice for a situation where someone's clothes catch on fire, but doesn't do anything to help children understand the importance of fire prevention or how to handle it if their homes are burning, he said.

    "I think we've got to throw stop, drop and roll out the window and actually inform children what a fire is all about," Cassidy said.

    "Fire Is ...," the brainchild of retired science journalist Frank Field, contains five segments that use media clips from actual fires as well as interviews with burn victims to make children understand that fires are extremely hot, can move quickly, and come with a lot of black smoke that can cut visibility down to nothing. Field's son and daughter, both in media as well, also took part in the project.

    "We have a terrible problem in this country, because we're not educating children in the right direction," Field said. "We're making it into a game."

    The educational campaign was kicked off at the Epiphany School in Manhattan, where a group of fourth- and fifth-graders watched a segment that emphasized how quickly fires can start and how dangerous it is for children to play with matches, lighters, and the like. There were audible cries from the children when they saw burn victims, and many questions for the visiting firefighters.

    Ariana Aradio, 10, said she would talk to her parents about making sure matches were kept in a safe place after viewing the video, and while seeing the burn victims made her sad, it was important to see them.

    "It was a good thing, because it shows you what can happen if you do play with matches," the fifth-grader said.

    This month, 36,000 copies of the DVD will be distributed to fire departments across the country.
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    From the snip-it on this website (that I cut and pasted), it looked like they were denouncing "stop, drop, and roll" altogether, which is a bad idea. Then again, I also took note of where the info came from -- NY Post.

    Thanks for the more thorough article. Though I will disagree with the point about "throwing [it] out the window" as quoted in the AP article.
    Last edited by DianeC; 03-08-2006 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Because I can!
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    Thumbs up Fire education should be more broad

    "...Instead, there are catchy slogans like stop, drop and roll, which is good advice for a situation where someone's clothes catch on fire, but doesn't do anything to help children understand the importance of fire prevention or how to handle it if their homes are burning, he said.

    'I think we've got to throw stop, drop and roll out the window and actually inform children what a fire is all about,' Cassidy said."
    Actually, I agree with this!

    During our station tours, we ask children what they would do if there was a fire in their house. Not only do the children say "stop, drop & roll," but so do parents. Partially, they say it because they weren't listening to the question and think that my tour is the same ol' BS that they always heard. But there are the others that say SD&R because it's the only thing they've ever been taught about fire. And that's crazy.

    I have no statistics to prove this. But in the time I've spent as a firefighter and as a journalist covering the fire department... I've seen more people have to escape a burning building than I have people actually catching themselves on fire. SD&R should be a part of what we teach... But, in many departments, it's the only thing that's taught.

    Too often, firefighters think that kids just want to see the trucks and sound the siren. Once children reach elementary school, however, it's our duty to do more than that. I always tell kids that a station tour is a trade. They can have fun if they promise to learn something from the experience.

    My public education programs put heavy emphasis on how to escape from a fire -- dropping low and crawling below the smoke. We do our best to paint the picture of what a fire is really like and we don't hold back on telling them what they'll have to do to escape.

    Perhaps my only decent achievement in the fire service was being a part of a classroom presentation to a bunch of kindergartners in December 2001. After doing our best to tell them how to esacape from a fire, one of the students self-rescued herself and her brother from their burning trailer a few days later.

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    Sounds like poor teaching methods to me. We emphasize Stop-Drop-Roll if YOU catch fire, show the importance of proper exits during a fire. Anyone who would S-D-R beacuse thete house is on fire is a moron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cozmosis
    Actually, I agree with this!
    I agree more should be done to teach kids, too. We, as a wealthy country, kill too many Americans each year (far more then the Iraq war and that gets a heck of lot more press, and that's another debate for another time). But to discredit something like "stop, drop, and roll" as it appears in the stories isn't a good idea. It's along the same line of saying people should have smoke detectors: "smoke detectors save lives". Where I'm from, we updated that line to say "working smoke detectors save lives". So, with "stop, drop, and roll" we also updated it with "cover your face before you roll" and "if your clothes catch on fire". Even if one child is saved from serious burns, then the message should be included.

    There is a fire prev. video around (I believe it's an NFPA one from a few years ago on children and smoke detectors) that does have a child say (when asked what to do in case of a fire): "Stop, drop, and roll". That sends a poor message.

    There needs to be consistency all around.
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    Any lesson on Stop, Drop and Roll should contain a section on "hot things" and preventing clothing fires, as that as is the "proactive" element of the behavior. So while I don't disagree that some other "procative" elements mentioned in the article need to be taught along with SDR, the "reactive" part (SDR) of the lesson needs to be taught as well, and the children need to be able to demonstrate the behavior.

    As far as teaching home escape to the same age group as SDR I disagree. SDR is a basic firesafety skill generally taught to pre-school and kindergarten age children. Home Escape is a skill that can be taught to first grade and up. There are many reasons for this, ranging from simply the type and causes of fire/burn injuries the two groups suffer to the limited cognative thinking skills preschoolers and kindergarteners possess that make HE a very dufficult concept to teach to that age group. At first grade, children begin to develop the cognitive thinking skills and ability to take material from the concrete to the abstract which allows for effective lessons on home escape.

    I do agree that match and lighter safety needs to be taught to preschoolers, as juvenile fireplay is the leading accidental cause of death in the ho,e for that age group. Though here it is taught as a seperate, stand-alone lesson, the same as SDR is a stand alone lesson. The primary reason for that is that the attention span of a preschooler is generally less than 15 minutes, and it makes it difficult to cover the material with effective follow-up activties in that time span.

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    I agree with LaFireEducator.

    If you are teaching Stop, Drop, Roll to 4th and 5th graders, you should stop teaching now. That is Kindergarden/pre-school level.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Just to give a perspective as to what we teach at each grade level:

    Preschool: Hot Things Burn/SDR, Matches/Lighters are Tools Not Toys, Firefighter Isn't a Monster, Cool A Burn.

    Kindergarten: Matches/Lighters are Tools Not Toys, Firefighter Isn't A Monster

    1st/2nd Grades: Home Fire Escape

    3rd Grade: Public Assembly Fire Escape (Hotels, Stores, etc.)

    4th Grade: Kitchen Fire Prevention/Cover a Pan Fire, Electrical Firesafety

    5th Grade: Basic First Aid (Bleeding, burns, heat emergencies, water emergencies, trauma stabilzation, snakebites)

    With all due respect to Mr. Cassidy, he really needs to understand what he is talking about before he speaks. Any program that addresses matches and lighters in the fourth and fifth grades makes no sense. Stats indicate that the vast majority of burn injuries and deaths as a result of match/lighter fireplay occur in the under 5 age group. That being said, juvenile firesetting (JFS) is a problem in some areas of the country at this age, but addressing it requires a different focus than this program seems to take. I do not currently use it, but in Vermont, where the firesetting demographics indicated a serious JFS issue with 9 & 10 year olds, I had a 5th grade program specifically focused on JFS, not matches and lighters.

    I would be interested in seeing the details on this specific program, but to me it sounds like it is off the mark. The key to any program is making it not only relevant to the targeted age group, but also making sure the material is not above or below thier ability to effectivly learn the material.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-08-2006 at 03:34 PM.

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    I can tell you that most of the kids in pre-school and in first grade in my city will say they need to get out of the house and call 911!!!!!! Stop, drop and roll is still good to teach, but that can't be all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Just to give a perspective as to what we teach at each grade level:

    Preschool: Hot Things Burn/SDR, Matches/Lighters are Tools Not Toys, Firefighter Isn't a Monster, Cool A Burn.

    Kindergarten: Matches/Lighters are Tools Not Toys, Firefighter Isn't A Monster

    1st/2nd Grades: Home Fire Escape

    3rd Grade: Public Assembly Fire Escape (Hotels, Stores, etc.)

    4th Grade: Kitchen Fire Prevention/Cover a Pan Fire, Electrical Firesafety

    5th Grade: Basic First Aid (Bleeding, burns, heat emergencies, water emergencies, trauma stabilzation, snakebites)

    With all due respect to Mr. Cassidy, he really needs to understand what he is talking about before he speaks. Any program that addresses matches and lighters in the fourth and fifth grades makes no sense. Stats indicate that the vast majority of burn injuries and deaths as a result of match/lighter fireplay occur in the under 5 age group. That being said, juvenile firesetting (JFS) is a problem in some areas of the country at this age, but addressing it requires a different focus than this program seems to take. I do not currently use it, but in Vermont, where the firesetting demographics indicated a serious JFS issue with 9 & 10 year olds, I had a 5th grade program specifically focused on JFS, not matches and lighters.

    I would be interested in seeing the details on this specific program, but to me it sounds like it is off the mark. The key to any program is making it not only relevant to the targeted age group, but also making sure the material is not above or below thier ability to effectivly learn the material.
    Try to remember you are reading the impression from one reporter who was proabably generalizing what she recalled about the video and is just giving a small portion of what was covered in the video. For all we know this might not even have been the issue covered. It is the media remember.

    FTM-PTB

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    True FFred, which is why I said I would be interested in seeing the program's specifics.

    My only point about Cassidy was that his statement about "throwing SDR out the window" was irresponsible. SDR not only is an important firesafety behavior, but it is easy to teach to very young children and ties into
    responding to thier curosity about fire. It does need to be taught correctly making sure that the children know WHAT it is for, and does need to be coupled with additional firesafety education including Home Escape as the children grow older and are able to master more abstract concepts, but it is a critical skill that all young children need to know.

    I am sure that most firesafety educators would agree with this assessment.

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    "I think we've got to throw stop, drop and roll out the window and actually inform children what a fire is all about," Cassidy said.

    "We have a terrible problem in this country, because we're not educating children in the right direction," Field said. "We're making it into a game."

    **********************
    I think this is a mis-representation of what most responsible Juvenile Fire Prevention Officers teach kids.

    Don't know if the 36,000 DVD are distrubuted for free or for fee. Sounds like they are trying to sell something to me.

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    Not to turn the subject into a different direction, but many places are teaching Stop Drop and rock back and forth now.

    It has been found that some people have a tendency to knock themselves unconscious when rolling around, or even spreading the fire even more by rolling around on highly flammable carpets.

    I'm not saying I agree/disagree, just throwin a monkey wrench into the equation.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAFireEducator
    With all due respect to Mr. Cassidy, he really needs to understand what he is talking about before he speaks. Any program that addresses matches and lighters in the fourth and fifth grades makes no sense. Stats indicate that the vast majority of burn injuries and deaths as a result of match/lighter fireplay occur in the under 5 age group. That being said, juvenile firesetting (JFS) is a problem in some areas of the country at this age, but addressing it requires a different focus than this program seems to take. I do not currently use it, but in Vermont, where the firesetting demographics indicated a serious JFS issue with 9 & 10 year olds, I had a 5th grade program specifically focused on JFS, not matches and lighters.
    And what do the juvenile fire setters set their fires with? Rubbing two sticks together? A magnifiying glass in the bright noonday sun?

    Sometimes you have to give "gentle reminders" to the kids in the 4th and 5th grades that they really don't know it all, although they think they do! YOu don't have to insult their intelligence.. a gentle reminder, followed by asking them if thwey know how a match or lighter works to make fire (tossing a little science in there, too) to hammer the fire safety lesson home!

    PS: I also teach fire safety in the schools.. so I know what I'm talking about!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 03-08-2006 at 05:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    And what do the juvenile fire setters set their fires with? Rubbing two sticks together? A magnifiying glass in the bright noonday sun?

    Sometimes you have to give "gentle reminders" to the kids in the 4th and 5th grades that they really don't know it all, although they think they do!

    PS: I also teach fire safety in the schools.. so I know what I'm talking about!
    4th and 5th graders don't know it all, but by that age they know how to light a match or lighter and just telling them don't touch won't work. You have to start teaching them the morals of why they need to show fire respect and why they should not play with it. They need to start learning that their actions have real consequences beyond, just this is bad, and this is good.
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    Without seeing the program, it is impossible to make specific comments on it.

    However, there is a major difference between teaching about "matches and lighters" and "the concequences of fire". Pre-schoolers are incapable of grasping much more than "fire can hurt you" simply because thier brains are not capable of thinking in the abstract. However they can grasp concrete ideas like "matches and lighters are tools not toys (after the concept of tool is discussed with them). The reality is that over 80% of the juvenile firesetters killed are under the age of 5, so the age group that needs this basic level of education are the preschoolers as they are setting fires accidently out of ignorance of what matches and lighters are. They can only handle simple concepts like "you do not play with this" and "bring them to an adult".

    Now, if you are talking about discussing the concequneces of fire, the age group to discuss this topic is the 8-10 year olds as many studies indicate this is the time that children often start setting fires intentionally. They know what matches and lighters are, but may not be aware of the damage it can cause. At this time may be thinking about intentionally starting fires for a number of reasons and do need education on choices, concequences and alternatives, not simple match/lighter education. As far as the use of pictures of burned bodies, I don't agree with "scare" tactics as there are many more effective methods.Throwing some science in there (I discuss the fire triangle with my 4th grade programs when discussing putting a lid on pan fires) is always a good idea, or you can use videos of actually JFS incidents and discuss the reasons why kids start fires. My point is that they are well bwyond simple match/lighter education ... that is needed much earlier (as the stats indicate) and can be very effecttive if taught in the right way at the right level.

    Gonzo I have no doubt you do know what you are talking about ..I think we are both headed in the right direction but just not "communicating".
    P.S - Also a certified elementary school teacher.

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    I think there is a general consensus among those of us participating in this thread.

    Everyone seems to have said that they disagree that SD&R should “be thrown out the window”. Contrary, everyone seems to believe that SD&R is an important part – but only a PART – of a comprehensive Juvenile Fire Education program that includes both proactive, preventative measures in addition to 911, SD&R and other drills that teach the proper responses various emergencies that may be encountered.

    We all also acknowledge that children of various ages comprehend at different levels and that consideration of the target age group is crucial for a successful program. One size definitely does not fit all.

    The only debate I see is in the details.

    Although I know little about the “Fire Is…” program that is being hocked in this article, I did notice that, in one of the articles (not Firehouse.com’s), it did mention that there are “5 segments” to the DVD. Although no further description was offered, I suspect (or, perhaps, “hope” is the right word) that there are 5 programs targeted for 5 age groups.

    Personally, I stick by my opinion that Cassidy and Fields are using this article to intentionally mis-lead the public into thinking that all Fire Prevention consists of is "lights and sirens" in order to generate publicity for their “new” idea and/or product.

    I will continue with the programs I’ve been using, but will print and peruse the information and opinions offered in this thread to re-evaluate and refine my methods to try to be as effective as I can. Who knows, if it’s free, I may even review the “Fire is…” dvd.

    I owe at least that much to my neighbors.

    PS: No offense to anyone (don't want to go off-topic), but I hate it when someone says "I do (such-n-such), so I know what I'm talking about". It is essentially implying that everybody else is an idiot and doesn't know what they are talking about.

    In my experience, when someone says something like that, it usually means they are losing the argument.

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    OK here are some answers. I've seen this video:

    -There are 5 segments all on the SAME DVD. Fire is... Black...Hot...Fast...Smoke & gas...Emergency.

    There is no conspiracy to make money on this as the UFA picked up the tab on distribution.

    -The 4 & 5th Graders were merely the class available for the PR peice for the news. It doesn't imply that is who the DVD is targeted toward. (truthfully I don't know the target audience as this isn't my specialty, but I suspect it isn't meant for the youngest set. It appears to be for those who understand the consequences and would be able to save themselves and others in a fire.) There were many fire departments involved in the credits all over the eastern seaboard and a few others in the south and west coasts...so don't think this is all the UFA/FDNY.

    -The video is targeted towards teaching kids the reality of fires in the house/apartment and what it is really like and how one should really react.

    -No one is looking to mis-lead anyone or promote any "product" We aren't making money off of it..for us it is simply good Public relations and it serves to help promote fire safety. It is fire safety material that one can use as they see fit. This isn't some cure all...it is another film that can be used by teachers and fire departments and parents as they find appropriate. I will say it is slightly targeted toward urban fire issues.

    -The 5 segments are each long enough that it would work well for depts that have multi-session prevention visits or have an entire day.

    -There is very little discussion as I suspected on Matches...it covers the issue briefly as it does with everything else but it does communicate that it only takes 1 match to destroy a house and kill people.

    I don't think they even discuss SD&R as the focus is on preventing deaths in building fires and not what if your clothes catch fire. If you want to teach that...use a different video.

    FTM-PTB

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    "for us it is simply good Public relations and it serves to help promote fire safety."


    Other places would call this "Customer Service."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire947
    Don't know if the 36,000 DVD are distrubuted for free or for fee. Sounds like they are trying to sell something to me.
    OK, someone tell me if I'm special or am I the only one that gets Firehouse Magazine. My March 2006 edition included a copy of this DVD and although I haven't watched the whole thing yet, what I've watched is outstanding....

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    Quote Originally Posted by pwrstrkinsmketr
    "for us it is simply good Public relations and it serves to help promote fire safety."


    Other places would call this "Customer Service."
    AHHHRRGHHHHHHHH! My ears are bleeding....DADDY MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    AHHHRRGHHHHHHHH! My ears are bleeding....DADDY MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!!!

    FTM-PTB

    LOL sorry its my sadistic day............

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    Just got it today in my Firehouse. Watch it this weekend and see how it ooks.

    And I think customer service is a good word. But maybe that's just me.

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    Some people are too polite! I think we need a customer service booth at our fire house.....just like in wal-mart.....ha!

    Or you could call for service.
    On hold we could hear:
    "Thank you for calling the Anytown Dept of fire services....Your call is very important to us.. please hold for the next dept of fire service customer service representative.
    Did you know that stop drop and roll dosen't work anymore? On April 15 bring your family to your local fire station and take part in our siminar for safe fire prevention....We apologize for the inconvienience, our service representatives are very busy.....again thank you for calling the Anytown Depeartment of Fire Services.....and so on and so on........

    Blah blah blah

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