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    Default Extrication and the Armored vehicle

    Does anyone have any information related to armored cars,such as how you would go about freeing the injured occupants.What have you found to be the best most practical method of gaining entry.How thick is the armored plating used on these vehicles.The discussion came up in the firehouse and now trying to find answers.

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    No not new have been reading the forums since I joined in 2002,I have already read thru and searched the forums and could not find any curent info relating to the topic.Hoping that there are some extrication tech's with experience or knowledge as it relates to Armored car extrications.

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    This question was brought to me by my wife a couple of years ago. I did a search and asked some questions and received nothing but rambling bullsh** from the so called experts. However I have never asked Ron Moore about it but I'm sure it's difficulty is right up there with bus extrications. Everything is hardened and cutting and prying may be difficult. Cutting torches may cause asphyxiation to the patient before entry is completed. I found next to impossible to get an armoured car company to let us look over their vehicles for obvious reasons (we are not all saints). So I imagine extrication is rare from these vehicles but we all know things happen. It will be interesting to see what we get on this subject.

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    I know of a department that recently worked a roll-over involving an armored car. I can't remember how they forced entry, but I do remember that they were met with a gun when they got in. One of the unconscious guards woke up in a daze and didn't know what was going on.

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    Armored cars are operated by: SECURITY COMPANIES! Ever see one in a junkyard? I haven't. Good luck trying to get information on these vehicles. Most of the knowledgeable folks connected with them are pretty tight lipped.Even when towing them you don't get much enlightenment.Comparing one to a schoolbus is like comparing a Yugo to an armored Lincoln. About the only good place is one of the doors and they are a long way from easy.Fortunately incidents with them are few and far between.Seriously,information on these vehicles is VERY difficult to get,from ANY source. T.C.

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    An armored Lincoln stayed overnight in our station a couple times recently. Some observations from myself would include: The door hinges were fabricated out of what appeared to be 3/8" thick steel. The doors were very heavy. It had truck tires on it and they were giving off heat for quite some time after the vehicle was parked. My personal opinion is that your vehicle extrication plan is going to have to center around dismantling it. Making access holes to areas where you could remove the bolts holding a body component on. Here's hoping you never need to tear one apart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic2839
    No not new have been reading the forums since I joined in 2002,I have already read thru and searched the forums and could not find any curent info relating to the topic.Hoping that there are some extrication tech's with experience or knowledge as it relates to Armored car extrications.

    My sincerest apologies. I did not realize that I had just looked at your posts, my mistake.
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    Some ideas:

    1, Most have GPS tracking and communication systems. One local company told me they could be unlocked from the cars dispatch center over the air, like some knoxboxes do. So, you should contact them ASAP!

    2, While you are on the phone with them, have them send a supervisor with keys ASAP, you will need another car and crew to protect the cargo of the first one (and maybe you) as well. PD would also be good.

    3, If the people in the cab are trapped, the windows may be your best bet. Use air chissells, halligans and sledgehammers, piercing nozzles to bust a hole into it, then insert a tool, turn it sideways, attach a winch cable (have everyone get way far away and use the winch to pull it out. Also put some LDH or maybe tarps over the winch cable to dampen it if it snaps and recoils.

    4, The gunports may provide an easy point to insert a tool to unlocl the doors from the inside as well.

    5, If they are in the vault, good luck. maybe a torch could gut the hinges? Otherwise use a k-12 to go after a weak spot (roof maybe, maybe from below) to get a skinny FF or tool in to unluck the doors.

    6, I doubt there will ever be severe body damage, so basicly, if you can unlock the doors, you are in.
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    I'll agree with most of those points with the EXCEPTION of the covering the cable part. I DO NOT recommend covering a winch line EVER and I probably spend more time around them a week than most of you do in a year or more.A cover is false security;if the wire breaks, it will fly cover and all.Plus the cover generally WILL NOT stay on the wire rope.Do as you will,but it's not a practice I teach or endorse. T.C.

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    I know military vehicles and armored cars are different, but maybe this will help:
    At last year's DoD Fire Conference, I sat in on a brief on extrication from the up-armored vehicles the military is using in Iraq. The firefighters overseas have had a lot of success going after the hinges with K-12 saws. They also use the K-12s to cut the brackets that hold armored glass windshields in place. Metion was made to stand back once the cuts are made, to avoid the door falling onto your feet. Once the hinges are cut, the door is pried out with a halligan bar.

    Some of the units have also obtained oxy-thermic torches. Fortunately, the saws and jaws have been getting the job done, and the torches have gotten so little use some of the units gave them to the motor pool mechanics.

    I'll try to post some pics from the Powerpoint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    I'll agree with most of those points with the EXCEPTION of the covering the cable part. I DO NOT recommend covering a winch line EVER and I probably spend more time around them a week than most of you do in a year or more.A cover is false security;if the wire breaks, it will fly cover and all.Plus the cover generally WILL NOT stay on the wire rope.Do as you will,but it's not a practice I teach or endorse. T.C.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always understood that throwing a bunker coat, tarp, or whatever over a winch cable only served to dampen the vibration on the cable, not prevent it from flying if it breaks. The dampening in theory would help prevent the cable from snapping?

    Anytime a winch cable is used, I've always had my guys stay well away in case something happened. Heard too many stories of guys loosing legs or suffering severe injuries due to cable breaks.

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    I support using a tarp for the sole reason of the attention factor: "hey! something is being winched! keep away!" TC your post only reinforces to me why it might be smart to make the line visible. We don't routinely use winches like skilled recovery professionals do.

    I would hope none of us actually think a tarp/salvage cover is going to prevent people from losing limbs/being killed if something fails and things start flying.

    It won't keep knuckleheads out of the danger area -- the winch operator will do that. But it might *encourage* them to keep away. It also avoids a trip/clotheslining hazard for those suffering from cranial-rectal inversion.
    Last edited by Resq14; 03-20-2006 at 05:05 AM.
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    Nice theory,but again I disagree.IF you are using a winch in rescue,generally you will use a snatch block in the line.This doubles the pulling capacity,halves the line speed and makes it MUCH easier on the electric winch motor.If you're not paying real careful attention and don't place the tarp carefully it can get fouled in the block and REALLY cause you a problem.If you're that concerned about making the line visable use a few pieces of flagging or fire line tape.They will pass thru the block system without fouling.On our ops,NO ONE and I do mean NO ONE,enters the kill zone after the line is tensioned except one of the riggers.And ONLY if the line is static(winch stationary).This issue has been debated several times on this forum and I doubt my opinion will sway those who use the covering practice.And that's OK too.But when I'm winching,I want to be able to see every inch of that line.Personally,I think covering lines gives a false sense of security.I'd rather know what the load is and rig accordingly.For what it's worth. T.C.

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    Is it possible to cut the glass with a saz-all, instead of ripping the glass out of the vehical with a winch? After a hole is put through the glass.That to me would cause the vehical to not move as much. Another thought would be to look at the joint were the steel and glass meet.

    These are just my off the cuff thoughts i have never extricated on an armored car nor have i ever seen on up close
    Last edited by nkfiree1; 03-20-2006 at 03:39 PM.

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    Random Thoughts...

    It would take a severe hit to actually cause any damage to an armored vehicle (that's why they are built that way)

    Chances of one getting hit hard enough to actually trap people inside would be very slim (that's why they are built that way)

    With the weight/strength/size of them, I don't think your are going to be able to shake it much.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Hehe Bones,Good thought! T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    With the weight/strength/size of them, I don't think your are going to be able to shake it much.
    It would sure be fun trying, though. . .
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    Default Winching Myth Busted!

    I'm sure some people will find an issues with this, but my squad is in the process of testing commonly accepted rescue myths and seeing what the real story is. After reading the comments on winching cables breaking, I offer this factual information:

    http://warhammer.mcc.virginia.edu/ca...busters01.html


    JEB
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    vehext, Thanks for the information, we just had this same discussion on the winch cable, cover it or not to cover it. Each person had there own idea, now that you have tested this I will show it to our personnel. We teach using a salvage cover folded for more weight on the cable. JEB next time your in the Beach area teaching or visiting stop by #10 house, dinner's on us. STAY SAFE.

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    i'll be sure to tell the guy we took off a boat with his arm nearly severed, "he just moved too slow".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Electric winch,small wire,moderate load.While it validates some of my theories,it's hardly a test for a seriously loaded wire rope.Try loading a 9/16 wire rope to the breaking point and see if your opinion changes.I still stand by my opinion of NO COVER,know your load and working limits and stay within them. T.C.

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    While I disagree with the 'no cover' comment, I agree with the prior poster's other comments. My experience is that there's a big difference between a cable actually breaking under stress and the results shown in the link above. A cable breaking under stress breaks 1 wire at a time initially, causing an imbalance in the stress on it, and then it breaks catastrophically, typically flying towards the side that first had wires break. It doesn't always neatly fly downwards. It can fly up, sideways, down, or some combination thereof. I also agree that the tension involved in the test was insufficient to really show what can happen. The killer is the stretch in the cable and the amount of force it can generate when it 'unstretches'.

    That said, I'm in favor of putting a cover on the line. I do believe it has a marked effect in reducing the speed that a broken cable has laterally, as well as potentially covering or catching loose hooks and etc.

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    That MAY be true of "small wire".It is categorically false protection of wire cored wire rope in diameters of over 3/8's of an inch or winches producing over 12,000# pull.And don't take my word for it,find a test lab or a crazy tow guy somewhere and reproduce the test.When a 7/16's or larger wire rope suffers a catastrophic failure,the average fire tarp IS NOT GOING TO INFLUENCE THE OUTCOME.Again,it's your and your agency's choice.I base my recommendations on over 40 years of experience around tow trucks.I run them,my dad ran them,I think you get the picture.And please answer this question:If covering the lines is a good idea,how come Towing and Recovery companies DO NOT do it.Nor is it taught in the Wreckmaster program the premier academy for the education of towing and recovery professionals WORLDWIDE? Simply because Wreckmaster teaches the operator to evaluate the load,resistance,and required effort to do the job,rig SAFELY within the safe limits of the rigging and load and effect the recovery swiftly and safely.Again,most of the folks here aren't "tow guys" but I teach winching thoughout the Northeast and I don't like things that give false security.I put tarping a winch line in that category.If you choose to do so that is your business.I DO NOT teach it and I do not endorse it. Just my opinion based on experience. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-18-2006 at 11:54 AM.

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    I haven't had any experience with any vehicles that are uparmored, yet not military. I did hear from someone that got a walk around on an armored car though. He made mention that on the specific armored car that he checked out the thinnest piece of metal on the whole vehicle was the roof. This would make some sense, because no one is going to be chasing an armored car and shooting from a helicopter. I can't prove that he is right or wrong though. I read gunny v's post, and today when I was looking at my crew's uparmoredd hmmwv (hummer) I definately see where he's talking about. The joints on the armored windows are definately not flimsy, but probably the weakest point. It's no more than an 1/8th inch thick.

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