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    Question Is any other "old" FF unimpressed with

    "youngsters" (less than 25) with FF Level 1, 2, Haz-Mat Tech, EMT-I, P, blah blah,blah. Its great that they have all the "learnin'". But all those certs , don't mean anything to anyone unless you know what they mean and how to use them.

    There done my rant for the day!!

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    As someone under 25 with an associates degree what I am unimpressed with is the "oldsters" who refuse to go to the FF1 academy and then don't know how to properly operate on a fireground. Just as certs don't necessarily mean experience, experience doesn't always mean know-how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1
    As someone under 25 with an associates degree what I am unimpressed with is the "oldsters" who refuse to go to the FF1 academy and then don't know how to properly operate on a fireground. Just as certs don't necessarily mean experience, experience doesn't always mean know-how.
    RHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
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    Classes are easy to come by. Life Lessons & fire/EMS experiance are hard to come by and get without time.
    At least they are making good use of their time.
    I say good for you guys! Learn more! Better your chances of survival and odds of getting hired!

    Never hold anyone back for bettering themselves!!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    RHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
    Don't agree eh? That's cool... maybe your area is different. Most of our volunteers aren't interested in firefighting necessarily but with helping the community in which they live. Which is fine by me. But in order to do that to the best of your ability you MUST have a base to start from... 50 years of doing it wrong doesn't make you a good firefighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAM4UK
    "youngsters" (less than 25) with FF Level 1, 2, Haz-Mat Tech, EMT-I, P, blah blah,blah. Its great that they have all the "learnin'". But all those certs , don't mean anything to anyone unless you know what they mean and how to use them.

    There done my rant for the day!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by E229Lt

    Where do you come up with this stuff!?!? LMAO
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    Well first off, yes I am impressed at all the youngsters getting the certs. Why? Because it means the Fire Service is putting some importance on training and education, and a rookie today is better equipped and trained to succeed than a rookie of say 30 years ago.

    That certainly doesn't result in a bunch of wonder kids who come out of school professional firefighters, but it means that the ff's and officers of tommorrow are going to have a better base to build on than the crusties of say 30 years ago. Once those youngesters get the experience, they have real potential to be smarter and more effective leaders and firefighters than those of us today.

    And don't forget, in many areas fire calls and working fire volume are dropping, as are public exposure and fire fatalities, etc. Rookies today may have a slower learning curve than the jakes of yesterday due largely to reduced exposure to big fire. They may very well need that extra education to compensate and bump them up ahead of the curve again.

    Education is never bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAM4UK
    "youngsters" (less than 25) with FF Level 1, 2, Haz-Mat Tech, EMT-I, P, blah blah,blah. Its great that they have all the "learnin'". But all those certs , don't mean anything to anyone unless you know what they mean and how to use them.

    There done my rant for the day!!

    Hmmm, around here you need most of thoese certs just to get on the job. So no, it doesnt bother this "old" FF a bit.
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    prepare for another dead horse beating......

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    I must agree with mcaldwell on this one 100%.
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    Instead of being un-impressed with the cert's I am very unimpressed with the work ethics of most wannabes under 25 or so. Got to lead them by the nose to get anything done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lieutenant387
    Instead of being un-impressed with the cert's I am very unimpressed with the work ethics of most wannabes under 25 or so. Got to lead them by the nose to get anything done.

    Great point. Ive noticed you get one of two things with todays "kids". They are either as lazy sacks of s**t, or they are bouncing off the walls. But even with the motivated ones, trying to get them to do any house duties takes an act of congress. Its like they think their mama will do the dishes and mop the floor.

    Too be fair though, weve got some old timers that dont do jack either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lieutenant387
    Instead of being un-impressed with the cert's I am very unimpressed with the work ethics of most wannabes under 25 or so. Got to lead them by the nose to get anything done.
    First off lets quit bashing the young firefighters, we are the future of the fire service. Some of the young guys do have a weak work ethic but not all do. I'm 19 and a POC firefighter, and I make it a point to not leave the fire station after a call if stuff needs to be done, wether it be taking garbage out, sweeping, washing trucks, or rolling hose, it doesn't matter what time it is, 3 in the morning or 2 in the afternoon. And if I cant find anything to do I ask one of the crustys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golzy12
    First off lets quit bashing the young firefighters, we are the future of the fire service. Some of the young guys do have a weak work ethic but not all do. I'm 19 and a POC firefighter, and I make it a point to not leave the fire station after a call if stuff needs to be done, wether it be taking garbage out, sweeping, washing trucks, or rolling hose, it doesn't matter what time it is, 3 in the morning or 2 in the afternoon. And if I cant find anything to do I ask one of the crustys.
    As it should be. Problem is, your in the minority. So like it or not, the bashing will probably continue.

    But as I said before, its not just the kids. Plenty of custies dont pull their weight. The issue is, right or wrong, fair or unfair, in a lot of cases, the crusties get a pass. The newbies are expected to perform, always.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 03-09-2006 at 10:51 PM.
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    I don't think it's fair to make any sterotypes based on age. Some of you may have personal experience with one situation (young lazy) or the other (old lazy) but you have to realize that each person and department is different. If you've been cursed with a lazy member of any age, take initative to try to get them more involved... turn off opera at the house and go throw some ladders. Help make them realize that everyone gets to go home sooner (vollys) if the job gets done quicker.

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    I find that being lazy or clueless is an equal opportunity employer.

    The main difference in my dept, a combo dept is that there are people there that are on a career track and would gladly talk about NST vs. Stortz with you for hours, and there are a few that are mostly interested in having some excitment or being able to say, "I'm a firefighter".

    This is not a bash on vollys at all, I'm PT/POC myself, but the people that bug me work in various capacities.

    Some people think they know it all and will never learn till they are on scene and NEED your help, others lovw to speculate about the next call, and how it can be handled best, they will toy with tools and equipment during down time and use every chance they get to learn just one more thing, even though in my dept a lot of what people know will probably never be used.

    Also, what some of the older guys have learned on the job is truely the way stuff should be done, it works and it works good. Its not what I learned in 240 but it works. Sometimes though, its a little scary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAM4UK
    "youngsters" (less than 25) with FF Level 1, 2, Haz-Mat Tech, EMT-I, P, blah blah,blah. Its great that they have all the "learnin'". But all those certs , don't mean anything to anyone unless you know what they mean and how to use them.

    There done my rant for the day!!

    Certs without (proper) experience is a lot more useful than improper experience. Most of the old guys who complain about the certs are upset because the younger guys kick the butts on most promotional test.

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    Samuel and the rest of you young ones....

    The problem period is work ethics of the youth, and yes I know I am using a broad brush but until you can work on your age group and get it improved - NOTHING changes. The thing is, if it weren't true why would anyone be saying anything. As for the CERTS, ask someone who was ever in a war (Vietnam, etc.) and ask them given the choice would they be more willing to follow a book worm officer or a seasoned soldier...

    Combine my career and volley and I have over 30 yrs in the service and yes I have earned the right to have an opinion, you get 30yrs in and you can earn one also.

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    I never overlook someones experience, however I sometimes find it hard to look up to those who refuse to stay on top of training courses and new trends. In my 13 years of being a volunteer firefighter, I have seen many changes. Even in 13 years, major changes have taken place. Experience is very important, however, just because you took Firefighter 1 back in 1982 doesn't mean you know what your doing in todays world. Everything from tactics to vehicle extrication has changed, and the training has also. Everything needs to be refreshed every so often, and from what I have experienced through the years, the older crowd has a problem with keeping up with the new trends!
    Chris Shields
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    This was a topic a few months back and I didnt comment on it. So here I go...

    I agree with both sides of the coin. How?

    I admit to being a "cert. whore". I take every class I can and admit I dont remember everything from each program.

    BUT...I do remain a few "nuggets" form each session that help me out. I think it does help on the fireground.

    BUt...Fireground experience can be gained only by one way...Hands on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lieutenant387
    Samuel and the rest of you young ones....

    The problem period is work ethics of the youth, and yes I know I am using a broad brush but until you can work on your age group and get it improved - NOTHING changes. The thing is, if it weren't true why would anyone be saying anything. As for the CERTS, ask someone who was ever in a war (Vietnam, etc.) and ask them given the choice would they be more willing to follow a book worm officer or a seasoned soldier...

    Combine my career and volley and I have over 30 yrs in the service and yes I have earned the right to have an opinion, you get 30yrs in and you can earn one also.

    With having over 16 years in the fire service, 4 years in the military service and three years of college before that, I have earned the right to voice my opinion and it is this:
    Broad brushes and stereotypes of any group-not a good practice.

    I would prefer an officer who has both (proper) experience and book knowledge, both are needed.

    At my small paid department, the youngsters are the ones who are motivated to go to school, to exercise, to learn new things whereas the "seasoned" ones are the ones who are the first to fall-out at a fire, don't know how to provide proper medical care and constantly complain about getting off the couch.

    I have a pretty good work ethic but my dad constantly reminded me (years ago) that the youth couldn't or wouldn't do a honest days work. Somethings never change

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    Everybody with all these " Certs" is great, continued education is crucial, and todays enthusiastic youth is a fabulous resource, but let's think about how you were able to obtain the knowledge from these classes and earn those certs. A bunch of Crusty old time firefighters were out there doing the job. It may have been the right way, it may have been the wrong way, however, they were doing the job and providing us with situations to learn from, showing us there may be a better way to do things, paving the way for the valuble resources that we all have at our disposal today! These classes and certs didn't come to be without someones expeirience, or ultimatley someone getting killed, and it always seems to be that that we always learn from. We will all be the crusty old firefighter someday, and the youth will always think they know more. Lets learn from each other and provide for the future. Stay safe !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1
    Don't agree eh? That's cool... maybe your area is different. Most of our volunteers aren't interested in firefighting necessarily but with helping the community in which they live. Which is fine by me. But in order to do that to the best of your ability you MUST have a base to start from... 50 years of doing it wrong doesn't make you a good firefighter.
    Actually I agree with you and was very impressed with the immediate come back. That is what the " " was for. Experiance is great, but if you don't have the knowledge and brain power to understand what to take away from it, it is no more helpful to the fireservice than all the certs with none of the experiance to see how it is applied. IAM4UK wanted to make his extreme the standard, and you showed him the stupidity of the comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
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    Default Question for all in here...

    Interesting topic...
    I have a question how should you handle the "young kid" and/or the "old timer", when they say "this is the way its done.." I have a little over 10 years as a firefighter, (with Level 1 cert.) And don't consider my self a new guy or old timer.
    Its discourging when you are working with both sides when they both think they are correct. One because of the "certs" and two because of their time in. I agree time does not bring experience. And vice versa.
    I'll admit I sometimes "cop the attitude" with both sides, but its very hard to tell them I could careless about the certs or their time in sometimes!

    Just my 2 cents
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