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  1. #1
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    Default They don't want a Pierce!!! Say it's not so!

    http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbc...603100657/1004

    "The vote came after 90 minutes of debate that saw committee members searching for a rationale to reject a recommendation by a team of Appleton firefighters to purchase the Elite engine over one built by Pierce Manufacturing of Appleton."


  2. #2
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Thats just dumb. Why wouldnt you want your cities $$$ to stay in the city?
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  3. #3
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?

    We had Pierce in when we were speccing our new rescue pumper. We made it clear we had about $250K to spend (I know that isn't much in todays $400K rescue engine days). They came in with a bid of $355K and after they "massaged" it it was still $40K over our budget. We just couldn't see justifying spending $40k we didn't have for far less of a rescue engine than we could get elsewhere. I am not knocking Pierce's products or quality, I am totally knocking paying a premium for the honor of having that emblem on your truck.

    We looked at Darley, Custom Fire, Pierce, Seagrave, Elite, Toyne and Ahrens Fox. We would have loved to buy a stainless steel bodied rescue pumper made in Wisconsin, but frankly no one could do what we needed for the money we had. Should we have settled for less? Should we have gone to our board who said there is NO money? This truck was being purchased under a grant and with fundraiser money.

    Honestly, if being the home town fire engine was important for Pierce they should have given the City of Appleton a better deal and maybe then it would still be the supplier of fire apparatus. Hell the promotional power of saying that Pierce fire apparatus protects Pierce manufacturing should have been enough for them to cut a better deal. I would find it fiscally dumb of the city to bypass the work of the apparatus committee and buy home town simply because it is home town. If I lived there and they did that I would be at the next city council meeting wanting to know why.

    Our choices came down to Elite and Ahreans Fox, and quite frankly while Elite offered a fine product in our committee's opinion Ahrens Fox offered more for our dollar.

    Brand loyalty without open eyes is foolish.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-10-2006 at 09:52 AM.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Default

    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?
    Well said.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #5
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    Default

    LOL

    Great story. Thanks for the link.
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  6. #6
    Forum Member confire's Avatar
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    Default

    It would be interesting to know:

    Did Pierce give the city any “hometown” concessions?
    How have the other Pierce trucks workout for them. (FD)?
    What kind of relationship did Pierce and the FD have over the years?

    Quote “The point system has shown everyone that Elite has matched the numbers and exceeded the numbers in many areas, including safety and maintenance categories," Moser said”
    Maintenance categories? Does Appleton own other trucks built by Elite that they can make that statement or is it a reflection of past maintenance issues with Pierce?

    $30K is a large amount of money but are they loosing an ally in the end? Will they be shooting themselves in the foot? Interesting huh?


    Someone have the Defib ready when Firefighter807 reads this one!
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    Last edited by confire; 03-10-2006 at 07:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Forum Member Res343cue's Avatar
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    Default

    Jeff Resch, vice president of sales for Pierce, said the report outlining the firefighters' recommendation was OK, but failed to take note of Pierce's history of providing fire trucks to Appleton.

    "For us not to sell a fire truck in the City of Appleton is a huge slap in the face," Resch said. "Fire trucks means jobs. Jobs mean dollars. Those dollars would be coming back into the city."
    Hmmm, if it's a "Slap" in the face, why not COMPETITIVELY PRICE? If keeping it local was such a big deal, Pierce would have made it work. Period.

    History means absolutely nothing when you're buying one truck. If it did, don't you think Pierce would have cut a deal so that they'd buy another?

    Hey 807, didn't get your commission this time either, did you?
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  8. #8
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    Talking Lol

    Firefighter807 is going to soil his Pierce undies!! That is too funny that the Hometown of Pierce wont even buy their rig!! Man that just made my whole weekend and it is just starting!!

  9. #9
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    Default just an opinion

    I have always liked Pierce units but more so when they were truly Pierce prior to the time that Oskosh bought it up. At this point I don't blame Pierce as much as I blame Oskosh for what they did to Pierce with all their little corporate bean couters. It always seems that when you find something good that you like, regardless of what company makes it, somebody has to go and screw it all up.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Default

    Far be it for me to actually defend Pierce here, but Elite isn't exactly a company that's been around that long. Regardless of whose ashes they rose from, I'd personally be nervous buying from a "newbie" in the market.

  11. #11
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?

    We had Pierce in when we were speccing our new rescue pumper. We made it clear we had about $250K to spend (I know that isn't much in todays $400K rescue engine days). They came in with a bid of $355K and after they "massaged" it it was still $40K over our budget. We just couldn't see justifying spending $40k we didn't have for far less of a rescue engine than we could get elsewhere. I am not knocking Pierce's products or quality, I am totally knocking paying a premium for the honor of having that emblem on your truck.

    We looked at Darley, Custom Fire, Pierce, Seagrave, Elite, Toyne and Ahrens Fox. We would have loved to buy a stainless steel bodied rescue pumper made in Wisconsin, but frankly no one could do what we needed for the money we had. Should we have settled for less? Should we have gone to our board who said there is NO money? This truck was being purchased under a grant and with fundraiser money.

    Honestly, if being the home town fire engine was important for Pierce they should have given the City of Appleton a better deal and maybe then it would still be the supplier of fire apparatus. Hell the promotional power of saying that Pierce fire apparatus protects Pierce manufacturing should have been enough for them to cut a better deal. I would find it fiscally dumb of the city to bypass the work of the apparatus committee and buy home town simply because it is home town. If I lived there and they did that I would be at the next city council meeting wanting to know why.

    Our choices came down to Elite and Ahreans Fox, and quite frankly while Elite offered a fine product in our committee's opinion Ahrens Fox offered more for our dollar.

    Brand loyalty without open eyes is foolish.

    FyredUp
    When bids came in for our new pumper " Pierce & Seagrave " both were a lot higher in price from $ 40,000 - $ 100,000 more than the lowest bidder , all fire departments just can not afford to be brand loyal because of tight budgets !

  12. #12
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    Default Low Bidder

    You will get what you pay for with the low bid!! Good luck getting your low bid fixed, and you will be getting it fixed much more frequently, I bet. Oh by the way, how far away do you have to take your low bid vehicle to get it fixed?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    When bids came in for our new pumper " Pierce & Seagrave " both were a lot higher in price from $ 40,000 - $ 100,000 more than the lowest bidder , all fire departments just can not afford to be brand loyal because of tight budgets !

  13. #13
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    Default

    Does anyone know if Elite used to be a place called J & B Fabricators or something similar to that????? We have 2 tankers that were refurbed by J&B and I had heard that they closed up shop and then became Elite. Can anyone shed any light on that???

  14. #14
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    bummer...

    You will get what you pay for with the low bid!! Good luck getting your low bid fixed, and you will be getting it fixed much more frequently, I bet. Oh by the way, how far away do you have to take your low bid vehicle to get it fixed?
    Closer than if I had to go to Appleton.

    A better deal, at a better price, that meets or exceeds the spec, does not have the stigma of "low bid" that you wish to attach to it. If you would like me to I can detail exactly what more me got for less money than Pierce would give us for $100K more.

    FyredUp

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bummer
    You will get what you pay for with the low bid!! Good luck getting your low bid fixed, and you will be getting it fixed much more frequently, I bet. Oh by the way, how far away do you have to take your low bid vehicle to get it fixed?
    Our new pumper apparatus was built to the same specs as the higher priced rigs, the dealer is located about 20 - 25 miles from our fire house and the factory is 2 .5 hours away if there is a major problem with the truck!!

  16. #16
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    Firefighter 1244 - Yes Elite is in the building that used to be JB fabrications - they have added on several times - don’t think there is any link between the two ( JB & Elite) other then some employees - most the upper management came from 3-D / or ALF 3-D.

  17. #17
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?
    IMHO, sending tax dollars outside of your city when you could have kept them local isnt fiscally responsible at all. Yes, they would have spent more on the Pierce, but some (if not most) of that would have come back into the local economy. There is more to it then the base price of the rig, and who bid what.

    I dont see this any different then buying US made products to kepp the $$$ in the US. Same idea, just on a smaller scale.
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  18. #18
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this has happened before - One of the areas around Appleton went to bid and it came down to a Pierce V/S a ALF with a 3-D body on it - I think they city has the Pierce Chassis plant located there but they went with the ALF anyway. I think there was a Thread about that as well - must be several years ago now.

    SBLGFD

  19. #19
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    IMHO, sending tax dollars outside of your city when you could have kept them local isnt fiscally responsible at all. Yes, it is if the local manufacturer doesn't think enough of your business to keep their prices competitive. Yes, they would have spent more on the Pierce, Why should they? The committee picked the Elite engine because it met and exceeded the spec. but some (if not most) of that would have come back into the local economy. I hope this is the kick in the pants that Pierce needs to realize not everyone is enamored with the idea of paying more just to have their nameplate. They build a good product but why should people spend more when they can get more for less elsewhere? There is more to it then the base price of the rig, and who bid what. Sure their is, Pierce's arrogance that becasuse they are Pierce they can overcharge their loyal customers time and time and time again.

    I dont see this any different then buying US made products to kepp the $$$ in the US. Same idea, just on a smaller scale. No it isn't and that is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Elite is a Wisconsin manufacturer so the money stays in Wisconsin. It isn't going to another state or another country. Again, if this deal, keeping Pierce fire apparatus in Pierce's hometown was so important to them, they should have done better to ensure they would get the bid. I sincerely doubt this will bankrupt Pierce...although my guess is it will surely open some corporate eyes.
    I would ask at what point do you continue to pay overinflated prices for something you can get elsewhere, still made in the USA, and in fact in this case still made in your home state? The citizens in my community would never stand for this brand loyal $30K more rig. If yours would I wonder where there fiscal priorities are.

    FyredUp

  20. #20
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    Default What truck should I buy?

    It looks like Pierce , like many of the others have grown to take things for granted. We just bid three pumpers for three different departments and Pierce was one of the bidders but the bid was given to Elite. The main reasons were price and service. The service end was hands on from the #1 man at the plant in Tilleda on down to the sales rep. I just wonder how many departments buying apparatus could get the question answered by the chief engineer or the owner of Pierce, EOne or any of the other big boys. I personally spoke to Len Heling of Elite on several occasions and we are a extremely small one pumper every thirty year department.
    It is the little things that make the sale. Quality, Service, Price in that order should rule our decisions. It is the responsibilty of the Vendor, which in this case was Pierce, not to give Appleton a reason to look anywhere else for their fire apparatus needs.

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