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  1. #1
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    Default They don't want a Pierce!!! Say it's not so!

    http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbc...603100657/1004

    "The vote came after 90 minutes of debate that saw committee members searching for a rationale to reject a recommendation by a team of Appleton firefighters to purchase the Elite engine over one built by Pierce Manufacturing of Appleton."

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    Thats just dumb. Why wouldnt you want your cities $$$ to stay in the city?
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    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?

    We had Pierce in when we were speccing our new rescue pumper. We made it clear we had about $250K to spend (I know that isn't much in todays $400K rescue engine days). They came in with a bid of $355K and after they "massaged" it it was still $40K over our budget. We just couldn't see justifying spending $40k we didn't have for far less of a rescue engine than we could get elsewhere. I am not knocking Pierce's products or quality, I am totally knocking paying a premium for the honor of having that emblem on your truck.

    We looked at Darley, Custom Fire, Pierce, Seagrave, Elite, Toyne and Ahrens Fox. We would have loved to buy a stainless steel bodied rescue pumper made in Wisconsin, but frankly no one could do what we needed for the money we had. Should we have settled for less? Should we have gone to our board who said there is NO money? This truck was being purchased under a grant and with fundraiser money.

    Honestly, if being the home town fire engine was important for Pierce they should have given the City of Appleton a better deal and maybe then it would still be the supplier of fire apparatus. Hell the promotional power of saying that Pierce fire apparatus protects Pierce manufacturing should have been enough for them to cut a better deal. I would find it fiscally dumb of the city to bypass the work of the apparatus committee and buy home town simply because it is home town. If I lived there and they did that I would be at the next city council meeting wanting to know why.

    Our choices came down to Elite and Ahreans Fox, and quite frankly while Elite offered a fine product in our committee's opinion Ahrens Fox offered more for our dollar.

    Brand loyalty without open eyes is foolish.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-10-2006 at 10:52 AM.

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    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?
    Well said.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    LOL

    Great story. Thanks for the link.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
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    Default

    It would be interesting to know:

    Did Pierce give the city any “hometown” concessions?
    How have the other Pierce trucks workout for them. (FD)?
    What kind of relationship did Pierce and the FD have over the years?

    Quote “The point system has shown everyone that Elite has matched the numbers and exceeded the numbers in many areas, including safety and maintenance categories," Moser said”
    Maintenance categories? Does Appleton own other trucks built by Elite that they can make that statement or is it a reflection of past maintenance issues with Pierce?

    $30K is a large amount of money but are they loosing an ally in the end? Will they be shooting themselves in the foot? Interesting huh?


    Someone have the Defib ready when Firefighter807 reads this one!
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    Last edited by confire; 03-10-2006 at 08:52 PM.

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    Jeff Resch, vice president of sales for Pierce, said the report outlining the firefighters' recommendation was OK, but failed to take note of Pierce's history of providing fire trucks to Appleton.

    "For us not to sell a fire truck in the City of Appleton is a huge slap in the face," Resch said. "Fire trucks means jobs. Jobs mean dollars. Those dollars would be coming back into the city."
    Hmmm, if it's a "Slap" in the face, why not COMPETITIVELY PRICE? If keeping it local was such a big deal, Pierce would have made it work. Period.

    History means absolutely nothing when you're buying one truck. If it did, don't you think Pierce would have cut a deal so that they'd buy another?

    Hey 807, didn't get your commission this time either, did you?
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    Talking Lol

    Firefighter807 is going to soil his Pierce undies!! That is too funny that the Hometown of Pierce wont even buy their rig!! Man that just made my whole weekend and it is just starting!!

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    Default just an opinion

    I have always liked Pierce units but more so when they were truly Pierce prior to the time that Oskosh bought it up. At this point I don't blame Pierce as much as I blame Oskosh for what they did to Pierce with all their little corporate bean couters. It always seems that when you find something good that you like, regardless of what company makes it, somebody has to go and screw it all up.

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    Default

    Far be it for me to actually defend Pierce here, but Elite isn't exactly a company that's been around that long. Regardless of whose ashes they rose from, I'd personally be nervous buying from a "newbie" in the market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?

    We had Pierce in when we were speccing our new rescue pumper. We made it clear we had about $250K to spend (I know that isn't much in todays $400K rescue engine days). They came in with a bid of $355K and after they "massaged" it it was still $40K over our budget. We just couldn't see justifying spending $40k we didn't have for far less of a rescue engine than we could get elsewhere. I am not knocking Pierce's products or quality, I am totally knocking paying a premium for the honor of having that emblem on your truck.

    We looked at Darley, Custom Fire, Pierce, Seagrave, Elite, Toyne and Ahrens Fox. We would have loved to buy a stainless steel bodied rescue pumper made in Wisconsin, but frankly no one could do what we needed for the money we had. Should we have settled for less? Should we have gone to our board who said there is NO money? This truck was being purchased under a grant and with fundraiser money.

    Honestly, if being the home town fire engine was important for Pierce they should have given the City of Appleton a better deal and maybe then it would still be the supplier of fire apparatus. Hell the promotional power of saying that Pierce fire apparatus protects Pierce manufacturing should have been enough for them to cut a better deal. I would find it fiscally dumb of the city to bypass the work of the apparatus committee and buy home town simply because it is home town. If I lived there and they did that I would be at the next city council meeting wanting to know why.

    Our choices came down to Elite and Ahreans Fox, and quite frankly while Elite offered a fine product in our committee's opinion Ahrens Fox offered more for our dollar.

    Brand loyalty without open eyes is foolish.

    FyredUp
    When bids came in for our new pumper " Pierce & Seagrave " both were a lot higher in price from $ 40,000 - $ 100,000 more than the lowest bidder , all fire departments just can not afford to be brand loyal because of tight budgets !

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    Default Low Bidder

    You will get what you pay for with the low bid!! Good luck getting your low bid fixed, and you will be getting it fixed much more frequently, I bet. Oh by the way, how far away do you have to take your low bid vehicle to get it fixed?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    When bids came in for our new pumper " Pierce & Seagrave " both were a lot higher in price from $ 40,000 - $ 100,000 more than the lowest bidder , all fire departments just can not afford to be brand loyal because of tight budgets !

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    Does anyone know if Elite used to be a place called J & B Fabricators or something similar to that????? We have 2 tankers that were refurbed by J&B and I had heard that they closed up shop and then became Elite. Can anyone shed any light on that???

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    bummer...

    You will get what you pay for with the low bid!! Good luck getting your low bid fixed, and you will be getting it fixed much more frequently, I bet. Oh by the way, how far away do you have to take your low bid vehicle to get it fixed?
    Closer than if I had to go to Appleton.

    A better deal, at a better price, that meets or exceeds the spec, does not have the stigma of "low bid" that you wish to attach to it. If you would like me to I can detail exactly what more me got for less money than Pierce would give us for $100K more.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by bummer
    You will get what you pay for with the low bid!! Good luck getting your low bid fixed, and you will be getting it fixed much more frequently, I bet. Oh by the way, how far away do you have to take your low bid vehicle to get it fixed?
    Our new pumper apparatus was built to the same specs as the higher priced rigs, the dealer is located about 20 - 25 miles from our fire house and the factory is 2 .5 hours away if there is a major problem with the truck!!

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    Firefighter 1244 - Yes Elite is in the building that used to be JB fabrications - they have added on several times - don’t think there is any link between the two ( JB & Elite) other then some employees - most the upper management came from 3-D / or ALF 3-D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    What is so dumb about being fiscally responsible?
    IMHO, sending tax dollars outside of your city when you could have kept them local isnt fiscally responsible at all. Yes, they would have spent more on the Pierce, but some (if not most) of that would have come back into the local economy. There is more to it then the base price of the rig, and who bid what.

    I dont see this any different then buying US made products to kepp the $$$ in the US. Same idea, just on a smaller scale.
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this has happened before - One of the areas around Appleton went to bid and it came down to a Pierce V/S a ALF with a 3-D body on it - I think they city has the Pierce Chassis plant located there but they went with the ALF anyway. I think there was a Thread about that as well - must be several years ago now.

    SBLGFD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    IMHO, sending tax dollars outside of your city when you could have kept them local isnt fiscally responsible at all. Yes, it is if the local manufacturer doesn't think enough of your business to keep their prices competitive. Yes, they would have spent more on the Pierce, Why should they? The committee picked the Elite engine because it met and exceeded the spec. but some (if not most) of that would have come back into the local economy. I hope this is the kick in the pants that Pierce needs to realize not everyone is enamored with the idea of paying more just to have their nameplate. They build a good product but why should people spend more when they can get more for less elsewhere? There is more to it then the base price of the rig, and who bid what. Sure their is, Pierce's arrogance that becasuse they are Pierce they can overcharge their loyal customers time and time and time again.

    I dont see this any different then buying US made products to kepp the $$$ in the US. Same idea, just on a smaller scale. No it isn't and that is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. Elite is a Wisconsin manufacturer so the money stays in Wisconsin. It isn't going to another state or another country. Again, if this deal, keeping Pierce fire apparatus in Pierce's hometown was so important to them, they should have done better to ensure they would get the bid. I sincerely doubt this will bankrupt Pierce...although my guess is it will surely open some corporate eyes.
    I would ask at what point do you continue to pay overinflated prices for something you can get elsewhere, still made in the USA, and in fact in this case still made in your home state? The citizens in my community would never stand for this brand loyal $30K more rig. If yours would I wonder where there fiscal priorities are.

    FyredUp

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    Default What truck should I buy?

    It looks like Pierce , like many of the others have grown to take things for granted. We just bid three pumpers for three different departments and Pierce was one of the bidders but the bid was given to Elite. The main reasons were price and service. The service end was hands on from the #1 man at the plant in Tilleda on down to the sales rep. I just wonder how many departments buying apparatus could get the question answered by the chief engineer or the owner of Pierce, EOne or any of the other big boys. I personally spoke to Len Heling of Elite on several occasions and we are a extremely small one pumper every thirty year department.
    It is the little things that make the sale. Quality, Service, Price in that order should rule our decisions. It is the responsibilty of the Vendor, which in this case was Pierce, not to give Appleton a reason to look anywhere else for their fire apparatus needs.

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    We will agree to disagree here, but I wont engage in insults.

    Good day.
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    Content deleted by author.
    Last edited by Firefighter807; 07-08-2009 at 08:16 PM.

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    Default you are correct SBLGFD

    The town of Grand Chute bought an ALF over a Pierce around 4 yrs ago. Grand Chute said alot of the same things Appleton has. Lets just say Grand Chute learned their lesson. The ALF was a giant piece of crap. I got to look at it a few months ago. Almost every gauge on the pump house says Pierce now. So much for the outstanding warranty ALF promised. Considering Elite is what is left over from the ALF plant in Shawano, I would be leary. But hey, it's their tax dollars.

    And by the way, Grand Chute has bought from Pierce ever since their "go with cheaper" experience.

    Stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    We will agree to disagree here, but I wont engage in insults.

    Good day.
    I went back and reread my post and if this is what you consider a major insult...
    No it isn't and that is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.
    my suggestion is to develop a thicker skin. But if I hurt your feelings I do apologize.

    My point was your argument of comparing buying another brand from the same state to buying a foreign made product was a ridiculous comparison. Further more, there is NO plausible reason for buying the more expensive rig if the Elite engine met and / or exceeded the spec. I would think the city council would applaud the firefighters for realizing the city does not have endless financial resources to waste on blind brand loyalty.

    It really honestly has nothing to do with questioning Pierce's product quality. It has more importantly to do with this simple question, which people seem to be missing. WHY did the fire apparatus committee from the fire department not go out of their way to make sure they got a Pierce? That is the question. If it meant so much to them i am sure they could have made a case for it. But they did NOT. They recommended the Elite. Hmmmmm, maybe THEY know something the rest of us don't.

    I could list chapter and verse what we are getting for a better deal than Pierce would give us at their bid of $105K over what we told them we had to spend. You pay more, we will pay less and get more and local service closer to us than Pierce is.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-11-2006 at 04:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter807
    Boy... gimme some cold water in the face!

    The big shots at the mothership took one right in shorts! Yes they did, and perhaps they will realize that fire departments aren't blindly buying the reasons for the higher prices any longer.

    "It's unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose money. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything because the ting you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." John Ruskin

    It is unwise to spend too much when others will offer you a product that meets or exceeds your specs at a more fiscally responsible price. When you pay too much and receive no more value for your money than if you had accepted the lower bid you are a loyalist patsy that the manufacturer will take advantage of. If the thing you bought meets or exceeds the specs, and is supported by a warranty of equal or greater value than that of the higher priced thing, and a network of dealers and maintenance facilities that will promptly service it and support it, there is no loss in value. If you blindly deal with the lowest bidder and you don't make them meet your specs you will suffer, but if your spec is tight and it is met you will have no problems. And frankly, NO, we did not have enough to pay $105K more for less of an engine.

    Let's hope the city council comes to their senses on Wednesday night. Why? The apparatus committee, the end user experts made a recommendation to purchase the Elite. Is spending more for loyalty coming to your senses? I wonder if they realize that Pierce has over 10,000 people visit that town every year? So, what? Will this one engine end that? I doubt it and perhaps Pierce won't assume they have it sewed up next time. The use the airport, eat and drink, shop, hotels and motels, and support that community in various other ways. And because Appleton didn't buy ONE engine this will stop? Come on don't be silly. Again if it meant that much to Pierce to supply fire apparatus to Appleton they could have cut them a deal and still made money. But apparently it wasn't. Too bad for them.

    They both should have worked it out. Ummm, no they shouldn't have. If you bid and the winning bidder meets the spec what is your justification for not going with them? Heck, if I was the winner and met the spec and you gave the contract to someone else I would have my legal department all over you. Frankly, what is the point of writing a spec and asking for sealed bids if you are going to ignore the process for brand loyalty?

    I am sad. Sorry, but that is life and sometimes it ain't pretty.
    Look. again, this is NOT a rip on Pierce's products, it is a rip on the assumption that they can over and over and over charge more and no one will say "HEY, wait a minute...why are we paying more if someone else meets the spec?"

    FyredUp

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