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  1. #1
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    Default "This is not good Mav!"

    I know it's time..but this saddens me, my favorite jet is retiring.

    'Top Gun' Jets Retired By U.S. Navy
    F-14s To Be Replaced By Super Hornets

    POSTED: 4:52 pm CST March 10, 2006
    UPDATED: 6:18 pm CST March 10, 2006

    VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. -- The last two squadrons of the Tomcat -- the sleek, Cold War fighter jet -- returned home from their final deployment Friday, two decades after the warplanes were glamorized in the 1986 Tom Cruise movie "Top Gun."

    All 22 Tomcats of fighter squadrons VF-213 and VF-31 arrived in style, flying together in a wedge formation over Oceana Naval Air Station as hundreds of sailors and their family and friends cheered. Some wore T-shirts reading "Tomcats Forever" and a banner proclaimed, "Last Fly-In, Baby!"

    "We're putting the premier fighter to sleep," said pilot Lt. Jon Jeck, 32, as he held his 3-year-old son Collin. "It's a staple of Americana."

    The Navy plans to replace the F-14, a two-seat fighter with moveable swept-back wings, with the F/A-18 Super Hornets.

    The F-14 entered service in the early 1970s to defend aircraft carriers from Soviet bombers carrying long-range cruise missiles.

    "If you want to think about airplanes that have defined the air age, this would have to be on the short list," military analyst John Pike said.

    After the Cold War, the Navy became less concerned about defending carrier groups and transformed the F-14 into a bomb-dropping fighter jet, said Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, an Alexandria research center on security issues.

    "But it was not designed as a bomb hauler," Pike said. "They would rather have a new plane ... than try to teach an old cat new tricks."

    The F-14 squadrons that returned Friday were from the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, which has been on a six-month deployment for the Iraq war. The Roosevelt was to return Saturday to nearby Norfolk Naval Station.
    Last edited by SAFD46Truck; 02-04-2007 at 01:58 AM.


  2. #2
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Sad, but its "reason for being" no longer exsists. I would be willing to bet the F-15 is next (at least the interceptor version) as soon as the F-22 is fully deployed. The "Strike Eagle" will probably hang around a while.
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  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Sad, but its "reason for being" no longer exsists. I would be willing to bet the F-15 is next (at least the interceptor version) as soon as the F-22 is fully deployed. The "Strike Eagle" will probably hang around a while.
    You're right, but there's one significant difference. The Raptor is going to be superior to the Eagle right out of the box. Super cruise, thrust vectoring, reduced radar signature, equal or better range, etc.

    I don't think the same can't be said for the Superbug (F/A-18E and F).

  4. #4
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    Isn't the Navy supposed to get their own variant of the Raptor?
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  5. #5
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    F-22 I believe is Air Force only, replacing the F-15 role of absolute air superiority and occassionally deliver a bomb.

    The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is the kitchen sink replacement for the F-14/F-16/F-18 and all the A-series including the A-10 Warthog. Has conventional Air Force, Marine Corp "jump jet", and Navy Carrier variants. Almost as stealthy and nimble as a F-22, bigger selection of weaponry (even has a 25mm cannon like the Warthogs for taking out tanks). I believe it's scheduled to be the first plane to (publicly) sport a weaponized laser around 2010 (to shoot down anti-aircraft missles).

    It'll be a cool bird if they pull off the kitchen sink approach!

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Hey, It sounds like it'll be the Quint of the Skies!
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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  7. #7
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    Hey, It sounds like it'll be the Quint of the Skies!

    LMAO!! That must be one strange looking bird, what with a ladder on top.
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  8. #8
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190
    F-22 I believe is Air Force only, replacing the F-15 role of absolute air superiority and occassionally deliver a bomb.

    The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is the kitchen sink replacement for the F-14/F-16/F-18 and all the A-series including the A-10 Warthog. Has conventional Air Force, Marine Corp "jump jet", and Navy Carrier variants. Almost as stealthy and nimble as a F-22, bigger selection of weaponry (even has a 25mm cannon like the Warthogs for taking out tanks). I believe it's scheduled to be the first plane to (publicly) sport a weaponized laser around 2010 (to shoot down anti-aircraft missles).

    It'll be a cool bird if they pull off the kitchen sink approach!

    Some good info on the F-35 here.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm

    My only question is, what about a pure interceptor for the navy? Both the F-18 and F-35 have interception as a secondary roll, and with the F-14 gone, they dont have a pure fighter. Maybe they feel dont need one.
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  9. #9
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    I served in a DDG when in the Navy.My ship's job was to shoot down aircraft that got past the CAP and threatened the carrier or battlegroup.
    Short version:Terrier SM Block Two-The long arm of the law.

  10. #10
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840
    You're right, but there's one significant difference. The Raptor is going to be superior to the Eagle right out of the box. Super cruise, thrust vectoring, reduced radar signature, equal or better range, etc.

    I don't think the same can't be said for the Superbug (F/A-18E and F).
    Sure it can. Because in order to be stealthy its weapons must be carried internally. In doing so, it has to carry less weapons. Not a good trade off if you ask me.

    That means that in order to eliminate the same number of targets, you have to fly more missions, which increases flight hours, wear & tear, fuel, costs, and exposure for the crews.

    The Super Hornet was meant to replace the Tomcat anyway. The Tomcat is a superior interceptor, but that is its only job. When grunts on the deck need close air support, you need an airframe that can do it.

    Still sad to see her go though.
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  11. #11
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    On another note, the Corps just stood up its first operation squadron of V-22 Ospreys this week. About time we replaced a 50 year old helicopter.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  12. #12
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    I haven't seen anything about other Fighter programs in the pipeline -- looks like the F-22 & F-35 class will be the backbone for the next 30-40 years.

    As for Air Superiority over the fleet...

    Only Russia & China offer serious if remote risk of conflict, combined with decent air power. Russia in Europe has an awful long way to fly in most places to threaten the fleet.

    China...

    Japan has *a lot* of F-15s -- Mitsubishi built like 1/4 of all the F-15s ever built with a run of like 220 that Japan operates. Japan has like half as many in service as the USAF, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts within 10 years they'll get Raptors.

    That covers the north. Phillipines is awful well positioned to run F-22s out of from the south.

    Islands tend to make unsinkable aircraft carriers That's my guess if the world ever turns to crap in the far east -- F-22s out of Japan with JSDF & USAF and the Philliipines with USAF to provide air domination over the Navy guys running attack sorties.

  13. #13
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    Short version:Terrier SM Block Two-The long arm of the law.
    Terrier!? Bro, been out a while huh.

    Here is the new "long arm of the law". The RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile) system, the navys newest can of whup-***.

    http://navysite.de/launcher/ram.htm
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    Last edited by Dave1983; 03-11-2006 at 09:20 PM.
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  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber Ladder8's Avatar
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    For some really neat videos of Tomcats...

    Google "Fighter Fling" and go to Patrick Savignon's (sp) website.

    If you don't have broadband, find someone that does - Fighter Fling 2004 (Last Fling - Baby!) is nearly half a gig - but well worth the download.
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  15. #15
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Some good info on the F-35 here.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm

    My only question is, what about a pure interceptor for the navy? Both the F-18 and F-35 have interception as a secondary roll, and with the F-14 gone, they dont have a pure fighter. Maybe they feel dont need one.
    You really don't need one anymore. There are enough picket capabilities in the Navy and land based AA and AAA are 100% better today than 20 years ago. As are early warning systems. The JSF is to be able to handle any air threat in the world. And the F-18 is an awesome platform. The key to all of this is Pilot training. Our future advisaries don't have the capable pilots that we have. I am willing to go out on a limb and say pound for pound, thier best pilot is no better then our average pilot. I'll take an expert pilot in a multi role platform than a mediocur pilot in a single rolled system anyday...ie....F-18 v. MiG-29 or Su-37.

  16. #16
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    You really don't need one anymore. There are enough picket capabilities in the Navy and land based AA and AAA are 100% better today than 20 years ago. As are early warning systems. The JSF is to be able to handle any air threat in the world. And the F-18 is an awesome platform. The key to all of this is Pilot training. Our future advisaries don't have the capable pilots that we have. I am willing to go out on a limb and say pound for pound, thier best pilot is no better then our average pilot. I'll take an expert pilot in a multi role platform than a mediocur pilot in a single rolled system anyday...ie....F-18 v. MiG-29 or Su-37.
    No doubt, just seams strange that they wont have a strict, air to air bird. I guess in a pinch they could tweak the F-22 a bit. Beef up the landing gear and mount a hook, though Im not sure how well the Raptor handles at the low air sppeds needed for carrier landings.

    Who knows, the need will probably never come along anyway.
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  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    I served in a DDG when in the Navy.My ship's job was to shoot down aircraft that got past the CAP and threatened the carrier or battlegroup.
    Short version:Terrier SM Block Two-The long arm of the law.

    Ya me too, DDG was my first ship, then I "upgraded" to FFH! Fast 'n Furious HELO!
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  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    You really don't need one anymore. There are enough picket capabilities in the Navy and land based AA and AAA are 100% better today than 20 years ago. As are early warning systems. The JSF is to be able to handle any air threat in the world. And the F-18 is an awesome platform. The key to all of this is Pilot training. Our future advisaries don't have the capable pilots that we have. I am willing to go out on a limb and say pound for pound, thier best pilot is no better then our average pilot. I'll take an expert pilot in a multi role platform than a mediocur pilot in a single rolled system anyday...ie....F-18 v. MiG-29 or Su-37.
    That's a dangerous assumption to make. The Su-27/30/33 family is an impressive series. Just how good, nobody knows because it isn't battle tested except in the Ethopia/Eritrea war of the late 1990s where it faced and defeated MiG-21s, 23s, and 29s. In 2004, USAF F-15s flew exercises against the Indian AF, which operates the Su-27/30. Our official response was that we were 'surprised' by its performance. Do a google and you'll see that other folks say the Eagles got their clocks cleaned. The truth is probably somewhere in between, but the Sukhois obviously made a very good showing. Is a Sukhoi as good as an F-22? Of course not - but if they're really on a par with the Eagle (or just close), how many would it take to overcome a Raptor? China is now building them and has the capability to turn them out by the thousands. We're planning on building 180 Raptors.

    Still, my problem with the premature retirement of the Tomcat isn't that the fleet now lacks an interceptor. Neither the Tomcat nor the Super Hornet is in the same league as the Raptor, JSF, or modern Su-30 so they will have to work in concert with the Aegis ships for fleet area defense. What angers me is that the government is weeing on us and telling us it is raining. No real effort was made to upgrade the F-14 ala F-15E. The plane already had the range and lifting capability. The F-14D, which has a very significant attack capability with laser guided bombs, has over double the combat raidus of the F-18E with a similar payload. It is also much, much faster - for that matter, most everything in the air is faster than the Hornet. A Tomcat with new engines, radar, GPS guided munitions and AMRAAM capability would have created a viable strike fighter capable of holding its own in the air to air realm. The Tomcat's demise has one and only one cause - it is expensive. Even a modernized 'cat would still require a lot more man-hours to maintain and it still has a two man crew so personnel costs and requirements are much greater. I don't hate the Hornet. As a replacement for the A-7, it is fantastic but it is being used as a stopgap so that funding will be available for the Osprey and JSF, which are the future of Naval air power. I just wish the Navy would admit it.
    Last edited by EFD840; 03-12-2006 at 11:12 PM.

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    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    Dang double post!
    Last edited by EFD840; 03-12-2006 at 11:08 PM.

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    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    As a sailor I think I mostly have to agree with 840. Yes the surface-to-air capabilities of most ships is pretty awesome but the fact is, an a/c coming in fast and low "below the deck" is quite capable of getting in. Anti air defence is wonderful, but unless you are in a fleet of 10 plus ships, without air support you are still, as Stephen from Braveheart put it.. "...The Almighty says he's pretty sure he can get me outta this, but you..... You're ...(chUCKED)."

    ALSO it is very dangerous to rely on "electronic" warning systems. Firstly they are only as good as the on-watch watch keeper. Secondly they can be fooled. CAP with visual acquisition capability there is the assurance that things are Ok. Not to mention the feeling of "first-line-denfence" that the CAP provides. Its sorta like having the Recce Dorks out front of an advancing division. {I say "Dorks" with tongue-in-cheek [First in-LAST out HUUUUAAHH] } They get the first contact and report back. If they get wiped, thats not a wonderful thing, but something is learned.... DONT GOT THERE (unless you really have to).




    As an (aside) no one is able to accurately track ANY propellor driven a/c. And virually NO jet is able to slow down enough to engage...... I would love to see an air to air engagement with something like a Tiger Moth (and there are still a few around) and say a Tomcat or an Eagle. That would be a show and then some {0f patience at least }
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