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  1. #21
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    Ladder27-Roger that. As was said, they built trucks to accomplish their mission. The folly is in all the "wackers" -many of whom are city administrators-out there thinking the monster truck is the answer. That truck with every gizmo in the world will not put out a fire or save a life without a crew-and no rig compares to a properly staffed company.


  2. #22
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    Gunny- all I can say to that is Amen.

  3. #23
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    The best thing you can do is find a neighboring department with a tandem axle truck. Take a test ride, and you will find that a tandem will turn as tight, if not tighter, than a single axle. The front axle of the tandem is where the truck will pivot for the turn, and it's a shorter wheelbase than most single axle trucks. We have a Pierce 75HD ladder, 500 gallon tank, Dash cab. We carry 1,200 ft. of 4" hose, 500' 2 1/2" hose, and 3 cross lays of 1 3/4" hose, 10K hydraulic generator. Overall height is 11' 1.5". It turns on a dime with a straight axle in the front, the TAK4 didn't make the cut when we bought it. We did not have any weight restriction for equipment as you may encounter with a single axle. And as mentioned before, you have another set of tires on the ground to make the vehicle more stable, and more importantly, another set of brakes. I encourage you to consider the advantages of the tandem axle.

  4. #24
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    For some reason some people often have a hard time grasping this concept, but on any given apparatus, adding a tandem axle will actually shorten your wheelbase and/or increase your angle of departure - so it is actually a good thing in terms of maneuverability.

    In nearly all situations, I would definitely recommend a tandem for increased capacity, weight distribution, and braking power, rather than pushing a single axle to its absolute limits.


    Bettendorf, IA runs a 2002 HME/Alexis/RK with an 85 aerial and a 1,000 gallon water/20 gallon foam tank. It is a very long wheelbase (254"), so I'm not necessarily recommending it, but it's out there.

    However, there are definitely ways to get larger tank capacities on 60-85' aerials without having a monstrosity - you just have to know what you're doing and have a manufacturer that is on the ball. I would guess that Rosenbauer, Crimson, and a couple of others might be up to the challenge.

    And a note on the Fallon rigs: they were designed to achieve a great ISO rating, but also for superior functionality. They work just fine for the department, and last time I checked, they had plenty of crewmembers to staff them with.

  5. #25
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    Default 75 Ft. Weight ?

    I also agree and know that a Tandem 75 ft. will actually turn better than a Single Axle even with a longer WB but I think some people feel a tandem looks bigger when in fact one of the determining factors is the OAL of the aerial device itself...

    A tandem is going to give you a better ride, braking performance and more compartmentation BUT it does come at a price and that's where I think that some FD's go with the Single Axle and I'd estimate that probably 80% of the 75 ft. models sold are Single Axle.

    There are FD's with both such as St. Louis with 30 Smeal 75 ft. Single Axles and Riverside County with 3 Smeal 75 ft. and Toronto runs some 75 ft. Tandems as well. Also West Metro in St. Louis Co. MO have recently taken delivery of 2 Tandem Spartan LFD 75 ft. Smeal Quints and so take a look at the Smeal website www.smeal.com and see the photos of them in their Calendar section.

    My opinion is if you can afford it and want the maximum water tank size then definitely go with a Tandem.

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    I've also heard the complaint that a tandem will "eat" rear tires due to the scrubbing nature when turning. I know the city where I live has a tire wear problem on their large 105 foot quints, but they run them on EVERYTHING - fires, EMS, the works - and they see a lot of use and miles. I think they were getting about 8,000 miles out of a set of rears, but I don't think it was the entire set of tires on the tandems that needed replacement, just four.

    Personally, I see this "negative" easily being offset by the increased braking power and the larger equipment/water load allowed by the tandems.

  7. #27
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    Default okay what do we need then?

    we want an elevated master stream. rescue capabilites, access to roofs, 2-3 story window. single axel. atleast 400-500 gallons of water. foam tank. with engine equipment. on a spartan chassis. would like this truck to be a do it all, except rescue just ordered a rescue pumper. we have a 2,000gal tanker.
    michael umphrey
    captain higgins twp fire/rescue/ems
    roscommon,mi

  8. #28
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    Default 75' quints weight question

    You want the ten pounds of sh_t in the five pound bag. With that kind of weight on the vehicle 400-500 gallons of water and foam, along with your NFPA equipment weight, and we know we usually exceed that in most cases, you will not be able to stop the aerial in in a few short years, within the same distance as when it was new. The Spartan chassis has now one of the tightest steering crimp angles of any chassis offer today. That being said, look at a manufacture that can offer you a nice short wheel base tandem. You now can carry the weight, have the manuverability, and effectively have the addtional braking power.

  9. #29
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    We are currrently running a 1992 E-One Cyclone 75' Quint and have a 2 ton cusion between out operating weight and GVWR.

    Specs are as follows, 1992 E-one Quint, 75' Aluminium stick,10 man Cyclone cab, 1750 Hale QSMG pump, 400 gallon poly tank, 500 hp 8V92 Detroit, Allison HT-740 Auto Trans, 20,000 front axle, 31,000 rear axle, 1000 5" LDH, 600 ft 2.5", 800ft 1.75", 5KW generator, 2,200 gal Portable tank, Ground ladders (35',2x 24',2x 18' roof, 2x 14' roof, and a Little Giant), and a healty assortment of truck tools.

    GVWR is 51,000 we weighed in at 46,900 with driver and officer.

  10. #30
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    The GVWR usually isn't the weight restriction that most 75' aerials on a single rear axle run into. It's the weight on the rear axle, most of which are rated at 31,000 lbs. It's very easy to exceed that weight rating on such a truck. However, it's certainly possible to be under the total GVWR, so you need to specifically look at the rear axle weight rating.

  11. #31
    Forum Member efd281's Avatar
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    Post Aluminum Advantage

    Here is a thought:

    If you take an aluminum mid-mount, you can save 10k in weight and therefore have no need of another axle. It will stop quickly, ride nice, turn sharp, carry 500 gal of water and still have lots of room to spare for the required ISO equipment before even coming close to the axle ratings. Food for thought......
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

  12. #32
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    Default Rough ridin Quint!

    We have a Pierce Dash 75' Quint with the tandem axle. Has anyone noticed how rough a ride these things have. My gosh I thought I was gonna hit the roof a couple times just going 5 miles over the speed limit to a call. The mechanics have said due to the weight in the back you are picking up the front wheels a little bit making for a rough ride. Cant wait to get back to my Tak-4 engine.

  13. #33
    MembersZone Subscriber mohican's Avatar
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    I just saw a magazine advertisement for HME
    it said they have developed a quint with 750 -1000 gallons on a tandem rear

    I think they use RK arials

  14. #34
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Once you add that second rear axle, you can do alot of things. I know of at least a couple of units with bigger water:

    750 gallons with an 85 foot tower ladder

    1000 gallons with an 85 foot straight stick

    Both were built within the last few years. HME chassis are under both of these units, but HME did not build the bodies. I don't see any reason why they coudn't have been a Spartan or any other custom chassis builder.
    Last edited by npfd801; 05-27-2006 at 12:58 AM.

  15. #35
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    Dont forget the Fallon ladders. they are 62ft. and carry 2000 gallons of water. They also have a lot of foam, and every tool known to man.

  16. #36
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    Is a truck with a 62' aerial even considered a Quint?

  17. #37
    Forum Member efd281's Avatar
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    Talking Quint

    There is no height requirement to make Quint status, only that it have an aerial device. Also, Sutphen has produced a few tandem axle trucks with 750 gallon tanks and 75' sticks. I believe West Metro Missouri has them.
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

  18. #38
    Forum Member MMA10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1
    Dont forget the Fallon ladders. they are 62ft. and carry 2000 gallons of water. They also have a lot of foam, and every tool known to man.
    As stated several times above: Fallon's units work for Fallon, but they won't necessarily work for everyone. Fallon is in the desert and is pretty much a rural community. What does that mean for their aerial devices? Virtually NO RESCUES from structures over 2 stories! Have you looked at the pics of the "aerial" ladders on the two "trucks"? They are not what I would want to rescue panic-ridden, possibly incapacitated civilians with!!! Again, they work for Fallon because Fallon probably uses them mainly as elevated master streams and light towers... They just speced the tower with rungs so they COULD use it as a ladder, if they REALLY NEEDED TO...

    Quote Originally Posted by mic409
    we want an elevated master stream. rescue capabilites, access to roofs, 2-3 story window. single axel. atleast 400-500 gallons of water. foam tank. with engine equipment. on a spartan chassis. would like this truck to be a do it all, except rescue just ordered a rescue pumper. we have a 2,000gal tanker.
    Well, Mic, it depends on what you REALLY want the truck to do. It sounds to me like you have that Rescue Pumper as the "first-due" on any vehicle accidents, EMS calls, and possibly rescue situations. You have a nice-size tanker for back-up water. With the way you describe your desires on the 75' ladder, it sounds like it will be "first-due" on any reported structure fire.

    If I'm right (BIG IF), then it sounds like you want something like the typical 75' Quint. You'll want it to have all the necessary pumper attributes to take on the fire (decent pump, decent tank [400-750gal.], decent hose load [couple crosslays, enough LDH to hit the nearest hydrant, 2.5"/3" blitz/bomb line], and you should at least consider CAFS. You also want rescue/ventilation capability of a Quint, so you're gonna need ground ladders, saw, vent fan [or PPV] at a minimum. The elevated master stream device and handtools would come whether you were specing a ladder or pumper, so you get a two-for-one deal there.

    The only controversial things in this basic list is the length of ladder and size of the water tank.

    You say you want to reach 3-story windows, but you have to watch your set-backs. We have some areas in town where we need an 85' ladder to reach the second-floor windows of some houses, because there is a hilly, dirt front yard and the house sits back 60+ feet from the street... Also, if you're specing a short-stick quint w/ a single axle, forget about the platform option. (Just my opinion, but it seems like over-kill on such a short stick. If you need two nozzles, check out Sutphen, they'll put two master streams on a short straight stick. Others may also.)

    You say you want a single axle and you say you can live with a 400-500 gallon tank, so I took your word for it and wrote it in my general idea above. BUT, you also say you have a tanker, which implies you don't serve a fully (or any) hydranted area. If that's the case, and you plan to use this Quint as your first-in unit, I'd say forget the single rear axle and spec at least a 750, or better yet, a 1000 gallon tank. It would be quite embarassing to roll up with your $750k quint that can "do-it-all" and run out of water before getting the fire out... (It's happened to us, so I'm not pointing any fingers that I haven't pointed at myself...)

  19. #39
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    Smile Excellent Points mentioned immediately above!

    Dear MMA10mm, your points innumerated in this above post are right on the money, IMHO.

    And, to mic409; Although there are a number of manufacturers that can fill this bill quite nicely, I know of none who could do all of it AND add a platform, too, all on a single axle; nor should they; -again, IMHO. The 75 foot aluminum ladders are where the weight savings in a maximum combo apparatus would come from- savings that would allow for a 500 gallon water tank. Here, we're primarily talking about either Pierce or E-One. But again, no platform, not without a double rear axle. Smeal's 75 foot steel-laddered aluminum-bodied quint, with the ELH waist-level retracting hose bed, a 400 gallon tank, and compartments on both sides at both lower and upper levels on each side just might meet your needs for a do-all initial response apparatus better than many others. But, you DO have to get it with a larger engine and a beefier Allison EVS4000 transmission to move all that weight; even with it all on a single rear axle. And, they DO by the way come on a Spartan chassis, as well. One last point; you're not going to get a large (750 or more) water tank on any aerial device with a single rear axle, as I believe was the request: the tradeoffs in both weight and room are just too great. However, you could use the strategy of having a smaller water tank go farther and work more efficiently by equipping it with a computerized foam system. Many departments do this, including ours. It is claimed that by using a foam system in this manner, that the water effectiveness is increased from 3 to 5 times that of plain water alone- thus compensating for the smaller water tanks that such multi-purpose, single rear axle aerial apparatus must -of necessity- have. Hope this adds something to your considerations. Good luck in your search. Let us all know how your plans are evolving over time.
    -Matt
    Last edited by CptnMatt; 08-27-2006 at 06:52 AM.

  20. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber mohican's Avatar
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    http://www.hmeahrensfox.com/Arsenal.asp


    "THE ARSENALTM HAS ARRIVED
    Why settle for a quint that doesn't carry as much water as your pumper, and can't provide enough storage space to carry a full ISO compliment of ground ladders and equipment? With tank sizes up to 1,000-gallons, exclusive HME Ahrens-Fox Hydra TechnologyTM water delivery systems supplying up to 2,250-GPM, and either 75' or 109' heavy duty ladders with 25-year corrosion warranties, the Arsenal provides all the firepower you need with no compromises. "

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