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  1. #1
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    Smile Pierce Aerialscope Rebuild

    Any fire departments that are interested in rebuilding a Mack/Aerialscope ladder truck , the city of "Boise " had there ladder 6 remounted on a new pierce dash chassis at a cost of $ 424,182.00 from Hughes Fire Equipment.We received a quote of $ 700,000 from Seagrave for a remount on a new Concord chassis. The Advantage Fire Apparatus co. was $ 450,000 on a Spartan Gladiator chassis for a total new rebuilt truck without our old scope boom. The estimated cost of a new Seagrave 75' Aerialscope is $ 925,000 . The " Bowie " fire dept Maryland , had there x-FDNY 1991 cf Mack tower refurbished by ITE fire apparatus at a total cost of $ 357,182.25 with a new mack cab, refurbed tower & new body !!!
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 03-13-2006 at 07:56 PM.


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    I have not heard of a AerialScope rechassis, from a reputable manufacturer being that inexpensive, or a rechassis from Seagrave costing that much, and expecially a new AerialScope being that expensive, without alot of equipment. What exactly are you looking for, remount 75 or 95? or a complete new apparatus?

  3. #3
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by cvfd2006
    I have not heard of a AerialScope rechassis, from a reputable manufacturer being that inexpensive, or a rechassis from Seagrave costing that much, and expecially a new AerialScope being that expensive, without alot of equipment. What exactly are you looking for, remount 75 or 95? or a complete new apparatus?
    The " City of Boise " had there 1986 mack/Aerialscope with 120,000 miles on it remounted, refurbished on a new Pierce Dash chassis in the year 2002 at a total cost of $ 424,182.00 , this information came from the city of Boise purchasing division. The birdsboro,Pa fire department had there Aerialscope rebuilt in 2005 at a cost of about $ 550,000 . We are looking to remount with a new 4 door chassis cab , rebuild the boom & jacks and new fire body on our 75' Aerialscope . We are waiting to get the voters to ok the purchase then we must seek the capital funds through bonds or a lease purchase over 10 -12 years . The quote from Seagrave was the highest and they build , sell , & service the Aerialscope !!!

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    NewJerseyFFII:

    From the pther thread on Peirce and Elite. We bought an American LaFrance. Total in around $775,000 for 93' MM no tank or pump, includes 10Kw generator, rollup doors, special compartment configurations. Etc. We looked into refurbing an Aerialscope, but since we'd have to buy one to be rebuilt it was not coast effective. Also the warranty times, service, etc. ruled it out pretty quickly. Again, if we owned one we'd have done it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    NewJerseyFFII:

    From the pther thread on Peirce and Elite. We bought an American LaFrance. Total in around $775,000 for 93' MM no tank or pump, includes 10Kw generator, rollup doors, special compartment configurations. Etc. We looked into refurbing an Aerialscope, but since we'd have to buy one to be rebuilt it was not coast effective. Also the warranty times, service, etc. ruled it out pretty quickly. Again, if we owned one we'd have done it!
    Most apparatus builders are giving a 1 year bumper-to-bumper warranty on all remounted new chassis Aerialscope rebuilds, and 5 years on the engine & trans!

  6. #6
    Forum Member dragonfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cvfd2006
    I have not heard of a AerialScope rechassis, from a reputable manufacturer being that inexpensive, or a rechassis from Seagrave costing that much, and expecially a new AerialScope being that expensive, without alot of equipment.
    We received the same quote from Seagraves when we contacted them. We don't think that they want to do refurbs or remounts so they just give you the high price so you'll go away.

    That's why we went with Pierce. Total cost $535,000

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    NewJerseyFFII:

    From the pther thread on Peirce and Elite. We bought an American LaFrance. Total in around $775,000 for 93' MM no tank or pump, includes 10Kw generator, rollup doors, special compartment configurations. Etc. We looked into refurbing an Aerialscope, but since we'd have to buy one to be rebuilt it was not coast effective. Also the warranty times, service, etc. ruled it out pretty quickly. Again, if we owned one we'd have done it!

    You could buy beat up boneyard 'scopes for like $5,000..... how does that effect the cost??

    Jon

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    CVFD,

    Would you care to explain to me what is so "inexpensive" about $550,000? $250,000 went to the chassis, and the rest to the aerial refurb and body. I think thats A LOT of money for the aerial refurb and body, which in my mind makes this project EXPENSIVE, but its Pierce, and to make sure they can take care of their customers, you pay a little more up front. PLEASE PLEASE lets not turn this into a Pierce vs. xx forum....

    $700,000 for Seagrave is better than we got from our salesman, which was " ". See whats inside those quote marks? Nothing. When I called Seagrave itself I was given the rough estimate of $690,000 before options.

    New ones are apparently more expensive than you think, or your salesman is a very generous man... Ours seemed pretty honest to me, he just didn't have answers or numbers from the factory to pass on....


    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefeng7
    You could buy beat up boneyard 'scopes for like $5,000..... how does that effect the cost??
    We didn't look too hard after speaking to a few companies about doing the work for a number of reasons:

    1. ITE seemed to have the best program and price but lead time of 1.5-2 years.
    2. There are very few 95' scopes to be found. We couldn't find a single one in a "boneyard" for any reasonable price.
    3. Warranty. As earlier stated 1 year bumper to bumper? That's no warranty. Engine and drivetrain is set by the manufacturer if you buy new or factory approved rebuild.
    4. What's the expected life of a rebuild? 7-12 years. We costed it out with increasing maintenance and trading in an buying another and starting over. In the 20-30 year cycle it was much cheaper to buy a new peice. (per year average).
    5. With new the truck is built to your specs. No settling for what you could find.
    6. Once we buy a used peice the City COuncil will expect every truck can be purchased used. Bad precedance.

    I will say that we may have looked at the new truck and thought it would laat longer than reasonable. We gave it 25 years, but through this process I've certainly begun to believe that no one's new trucks can last that long with all the electronics. Probably 20 years with a significant overhaul around year 12-14.
    Last edited by RFDACM; 03-15-2006 at 09:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    We didn't look too hard after speaking to a few companies about doing the work for a number of reasons:

    1. ITE seemed to have the best program and price but lead time of 1.5-2 years.
    2. There are very few 95' scopes to be found. We couldn't find a single one in a "boneyard" for any reasonable price.
    3. Warranty. As earlier stated 1 year bumper to bumper? That's no warranty. Engine and drivetrain is set by the manufacturer if you buy new or factory approved rebuild.
    4. What's the expected life of a rebuild? 7-12 years. We costed it out with increasing maintenance and trading in an buying another and starting over. In the 20-30 year cycle it was much cheaper to buy a new peice. (per year average).
    5. With new the truck is built to your specs. No settling for what you could find.
    6. Once we buy a used peice the City COuncil will expect every truck can be purchased used. Bad precedance.

    I will say that we may have looked at the new truck and thought it would laat longer than reasonable. We gave it 25 years, but through this process I've certainly begun to believe that no one's new trucks can last that long with all the electronics. Probably 20 years with a significant overhaul around year 12-14.
    Our PierceScope has a 10 year paint warranty, 10 year body warranty (corrosion), and 50 year frame warranty. Not having the specs in front of me, I know there is more, but its not in front of me. The expected life of our rebuild is not a number of years, but the same as a new truck for the simple reason that the booms of an aerialscope do not "wear out". In 15 years you don't need a new truck, you can do it again. On a more realistic note, the aerial controllers will probably need overhaul in 15 years, but that is built into our budget, so I do not see 20 years being a problem for this truck. We told our borough council the whole story - that its not a used truck. Its a new chassis and body with a remanufactured aerial device on it. That doesn't set any example to be followed - you can only do that trick on an aerial truck...

    We wanted a new chassis (no questions asked). When we called ITE, they told us that they were not allowed to put the device on a Spartan (our next choice if we couldnt get the Pierce) chassis because of being a Seagrave dealer (I smell politics). They also told us that Seagrave wouldn't sell them an empty Seagrave chassis for the project. They went out the window. Hopefully things have been straightened out since then, but thats the way it was a year ago.

    I had my fingers on one in a boneyard for $7500 (95') and one still in service for $30,000 (still not that bad), BUT the 95' wouldnt fit in our garage. Could have been a big oops.

    Sort of a moot point, but when you do a program like we did, we got a truck built the way we wanted. There was not settling - all they reused were the jack assemblies, the superstructure, and the booms.... The real question is, who told you that you were stuck with something or that it couldn't be changed?

    You made a comment about higher maintenance costs on a refurbished truck. I'm not so sure how that could be. They should go to the same level as a new truck....

    Food for thought.
    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefeng7
    Our PierceScope has a 10 year paint warranty, 10 year body warranty (corrosion), and 50 year frame warranty. Not having the specs in front of me, I know there is more, but its not in front of me. The expected life of our rebuild is not a number of years, but the same as a new truck for the simple reason that the booms of an aerialscope do not "wear out". In 15 years you don't need a new truck, you can do it again. On a more realistic note, the aerial controllers will probably need overhaul in 15 years, but that is built into our budget, so I do not see 20 years being a problem for this truck. We told our borough council the whole story - that its not a used truck. Its a new chassis and body with a remanufactured aerial device on it. That doesn't set any example to be followed - you can only do that trick on an aerial truck...

    We wanted a new chassis (no questions asked). When we called ITE, they told us that they were not allowed to put the device on a Spartan (our next choice if we couldnt get the Pierce) chassis because of being a Seagrave dealer (I smell politics). They also told us that Seagrave wouldn't sell them an empty Seagrave chassis for the project. They went out the window. Hopefully things have been straightened out since then, but thats the way it was a year ago.

    I had my fingers on one in a boneyard for $7500 (95') and one still in service for $30,000 (still not that bad), BUT the 95' wouldnt fit in our garage. Could have been a big oops.

    Sort of a moot point, but when you do a program like we did, we got a truck built the way we wanted. There was not settling - all they reused were the jack assemblies, the superstructure, and the booms.... The real question is, who told you that you were stuck with something or that it couldn't be changed?

    You made a comment about higher maintenance costs on a refurbished truck. I'm not so sure how that could be. They should go to the same level as a new truck....

    Food for thought.
    Jon
    To: Chiefeng7 Why won't ITE Fire Apparatus build a scope on a " Spartan " chasiss when ( Seagrave ) builds aerialscopes on Spartan chassis!!!

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    Chiefeng7: Nice deal! Sounds like you guys really did your homework and made it work. Like I said we stopped looking into at the point that we thought it would be too expensive. We didn't look hard enough evidentally. I'd just as soon run a Scope boom and jacks on a Peirce then buy a new anything. I'd say next time, but I'll either be retired or dead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    Chiefeng7: Nice deal! Sounds like you guys really did your homework and made it work. Like I said we stopped looking into at the point that we thought it would be too expensive. We didn't look hard enough evidentally. I'd just as soon run a Scope boom and jacks on a Peirce then buy a new anything. I'd say next time, but I'll either be retired or dead!

    I hear ya.... we made a few mistakes on the truck, fortunately not many, but like you said - I'll be dead before we get the chance to correct them in "round 4" for this aerial...

    To NewJerseyFFII: Seagrave would not build on a spartan for us. They told us they were stopping that practice. That came directly from our salesman. I would take a Spartan Gladiator over a seagrave chassis ANY DAY....


    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefeng7
    I hear ya.... we made a few mistakes on the truck, fortunately not many, but like you said - I'll be dead before we get the chance to correct them in "round 4" for this aerial...

    To NewJerseyFFII: Seagrave would not build on a spartan for us. They told us they were stopping that practice. That came directly from our salesman. I would take a Spartan Gladiator over a seagrave chassis ANY DAY....


    Jon
    To: Chiefeng7, Are there any apparatus builders or refurbishment companys other than " Advantage " that can do ( Aerialscope ) rebuilds on Spartan chassis cabs in the N.J. , N.Y. , Pa , Md , area ?

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    Wink

    the problem with referbs are they are twice the labor and need to be brought up to NFPA 1901 std. suggest pricing out new.

    call len heling @ 715-787-4448 ext 101

    he built our quint and has 33 yrs in the buisness

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdaenterprises
    the problem with referbs are they are twice the labor and need to be brought up to NFPA 1901 std. suggest pricing out new.

    call len heling @ 715-787-4448 ext 101

    he built our quint and has 33 yrs in the buisness
    To : bdaenterprises What make & model fire apparatus is Len Heling selling and where is he located , and is there a sales & service center in the state of New Jersey for future repair work ?
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 03-18-2006 at 08:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdaenterprises
    the problem with referbs are they are twice the labor and need to be brought up to NFPA 1901 std. suggest pricing out new.

    call len heling @ 715-787-4448 ext 101

    he built our quint and has 33 yrs in the buisness

    Another common mis-conception. Most NFPA 1901 issues are in the chassis (especially with an aerialscope). You have an unenclosed cab to start with....

    But in the process of building a new chassis/body (just like you would for a new truck), I fail to see how you have TWICE the labor! The aerial refurb is not cheap, because the need to remove the old controllers/hoses/etc. before you install new. Of course, there isn't really a reason that takes more than a day or two.

    Remember - most of it is new. You are re-using very little. The re-used parts go through the same process as new parts.

    Double the labor? Nope.

    That phone number comes back to Ambiance Custom Coaches in Tilleda, Wisconsin FYI.

    Jon

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    Default Be quiet already with calling Len..........

    it appears that all you have to do is "just call Len" .....if you haven surfed over to the Pirece thread here .........bda appears to be associated with the company involved (NOT Pierce)..........
    Last edited by Weruj1; 03-18-2006 at 11:09 PM.
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    Len built their quint. Great. Elite has yet to build an aerial, as best I can tell. Who wants the first one?

    Ambiance Custom Coaches (same physical address as Elite) , Elite, BDA. What a wicked web we weave.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    Len built their quint. Great. Elite has yet to build an aerial, as best I can tell. Who wants the first one?

    Ambiance Custom Coaches (same physical address as Elite) , Elite, BDA. What a wicked web we weave.
    Your right, if we wanted a cheap no frills aerial we could call " Rosenbaur " and ask about there firestar aerial trucks starting at $ 398,000. We are looking for companys to spec & bid on our Mack/Baker Aerialscope refurbishment/ remount !!!
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 03-19-2006 at 01:44 PM.

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