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    Default Question with PPE Grant

    Hello guys, I am currently working on a grant to replace 20 sets of Turnouts. I have been checking with some of the suppliers to make sure we are covered with the prices. I am being told to make the dollar amount as low as possible so that I make my grant a little more acceptable. But, If I receive the grant I want to buy the best that I can get (More bang for the Buck). We are looking to purchase 20 sets of PBI gear Leather boots and a personel rechargable light. I am looking at asking for around 1700-1800 per set. What do you guys think?

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    I think you should put in for $2000 per complete set. There is no way I would put in for the personal light. I think the gurus on this forum would call that mixing high priority with very, very low priority items. Why let a $100 light keep you from gettin new PPE... just my 2 cents..

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    Res81cue-

    I am in agreement with hillybilly that you should go for a complete ensemble because your funding limits will give you a little more room to move on gear if boot and helmet prices are lower than anticipated. However, do not get stuck on the $2000 figure, I have not seen anywhere that this will be the magic number this year. With the proposed NFPA 1971-2006 update, gear prices will rise at least $50-$95/set for a Drag Rescue Device. Inflation, fuel, shipping, etc....has affected our new pricing and hopefully the government will take this into account. I would go after the essentials (coat, pants, helmets, gloves, hoods, and boots) and if you can get the lights with the $5K excess, then go for it.

    Earlier you stated that you wanted to get the most bang for your buck with PBI. Keep in mind that PBI is only the outer shell component of your bunker gear, there are other vital components (thermal liner and moisture barrier) that give the suit high TPP and THL numbers. Other outer shell materials such as: Ultra Advance, Advance, among others may be more cost effective with a good thermal and moisture barrier and keep your firefighters safe. Also, don't forget comfort and workmanship. You want to get a product that the guys are comfortable wearing and that will be durable for the future. Most small departments only have one opportunity in a significant number of years to replace gear, so they need to keep in mind future maintenance issues.

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

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    Folks the limits last year was $1200.00 per set of Structural pants and coat. Contrary to what you may be being told by "salesman", and remember I work with 46 of them all the time, DHS always has the option of setting a price limit and they frequently do.

    Last year there were many instances of SCBA requests and turnouts requests being asked to accept lower limits. Remember that there is $150 million less in the program this year and the competition will be even tougher than in years past as DHS will seek to fund the maiximum number of departments that it can with the money they have available. If your request is not "reasonable" ,you may not be afforded the chance to even take a lower amount, they will simply move on to another application that is less cost to them.

    The word "reasonable" is mentioned on no less than 8 times in the PG. That speaks volumes to shopping price and keeping to the "basics" here, Don't buy a Cadillac when a VW will do the job. In this case the VWs will be leaving the Cadillacs sitting at the start line! It is a handup ,not a handout and raising the greedy flag up the flagpole to a reviewer is a sure way to get your whole grant thrown out. It does not matter one bit what YOU think is a prirority here, it ONLY matters what THEY think. It is their program and they set the rules folks, Play by the rules and you get funded, try to bend them to fit your whims and the DJ blues will beset you every time.See below for the paragraph quoted directly from PG that concerns this:

    Reasonableness of a Request
    The panelists will review all of the applications in the competitive range and judge each application on its own merits. The panelists will consider all expenses budgeted, including administrative and indirect, as part of the cost-benefit determination and may recommend appropriate adjustments. Regardless of the eligibility of any costs requested, we reserve the right to reduce any requests for assistance, in whole or in part, that we deem to be excessive or otherwise contrary to the best interests of this program.


    Forewarned is forewarned here folks. By the way, flashlights are lower priority.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    I agree w/ 1 thing - ask for $2000 per set (this was the Max allowable by the AFG for a set of TOG on '05) unless you already have prices for gear and they are higher than $2K then list the quoted cost.

    If your grant application otherwise has merit and the powers that be think you're asking too much they will contact you and ask if you would be willing to accept the grant with a reduction in price. They did for us. Reduced from $2500 per suit to $2000. I still managed to do some dealing to get everything we wanted under $2k with room to spare. We did get leather boots - not rubber.

    Funded grant from 2005
    Project 1 Personal Protective Equipment:

    This project includes the purchase of a full set of fitted structural turn out gear (TOG) for each of our 25 active members. This gear will include a Helmet, Nomex Hood, Coat, Pants with suspenders, Gloves, and Boots. Additionally it will include a personal hand light for each member and a gear bag to store & protect the gear when not in use.

    FYI - here's a link to our full narrative - http://www.firegraphics.org/Grants/FVFD2005.htm
    Thanks to Brian aka BC79er for hosting this.

    Good luck with your application and grant in '06.

    Edit - Kurt posted while I was writing.

    Kurt - I can guarantee that you've forgotten more about the grant process than I'll ever know, but I think we have an Apples to Oranges issue.
    The limit of $1200 was indeed for Coat & Pants.
    The limit for "Complete Turnouts" (to include boots, helmet, and gloves) was $2000

    Edit # 2 - darn typos - I need more coffee
    Last edited by N2DFire; 03-13-2006 at 08:03 AM.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

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    One more thing the NFPA change is still only a "proposed" change it is NOT in effect yet and as such, you can't use that as justification.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Quite correct from the gentleman in Florida, only the NFPA Standards in effect at the time of application are justification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd599
    Res81cue-

    I am in agreement with hillybilly that you should go for a complete ensemble because your funding limits will give you a little more room to move on gear if boot and helmet prices are lower than anticipated. However, do not get stuck on the $2000 figure, I have not seen anywhere that this will be the magic number this year. With the proposed NFPA 1971-2006 update, gear prices will rise at least $50-$95/set for a Drag Rescue Device. Inflation, fuel, shipping, etc....has affected our new pricing and hopefully the government will take this into account. I would go after the essentials (coat, pants, helmets, gloves, hoods, and boots) and if you can get the lights with the $5K excess, then go for it.

    Earlier you stated that you wanted to get the most bang for your buck with PBI. Keep in mind that PBI is only the outer shell component of your bunker gear, there are other vital components (thermal liner and moisture barrier) that give the suit high TPP and THL numbers. Other outer shell materials such as: Ultra Advance, Advance, among others may be more cost effective with a good thermal and moisture barrier and keep your firefighters safe. Also, don't forget comfort and workmanship. You want to get a product that the guys are comfortable wearing and that will be durable for the future. Most small departments only have one opportunity in a significant number of years to replace gear, so they need to keep in mind future maintenance issues.

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com
    Well I thought I was pretty knowledgable About this stuff but, you got me on the TPP and THL numbers. Please explain

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    Quote Originally Posted by RES81CUE
    Well I thought I was pretty knowledgable About this stuff but, you got me on the TPP and THL numbers. Please explain

    THL- Total Heat Loss
    TPP- Thermal Protective Performance

    Your welcome.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Res81cue-

    Without going into a huge ranting:

    1) TPP-Thermal Protective Performance (Thermal Insulation)

    Thicker/Heavier=Higher TPP (Protection)

    2) THL-Total Heat Loss (Breathability)

    Lighter/Thinner Garment=Higher THL (Comfort)

    Both tests are taken on all three layers of protection together. Usually, there is an inverse relationship between TPP's and THL's. As TPP gets higher, the gear gets heavier and more cumbersome and THL gets lower.

    Inversely, if you have a high THL then the gear is lighter and more comfortable, but the TPP values are reduced and do not offer as much thermal protection. These numbers need to be a balancing act of comfort and protection to fit your needs.

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

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    [QUOTE=ktb9780]THL- Total Heat Loss
    TPP- Thermal Protective Performance

    Your welcome.

    Ok gotcha I thought you was talking about grant application stuff.

    Thanks

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    We have been looking for the latest an greatest turnout gear for us to purchase. Basically there are 3 types that are considered the best in this area.
    Morning Pride (PPE) Expensive Some love it some hate it. Who knows

    Globe G Extreme (PPE) nice but kindve pricey and still new enough to wonder if all the bugs are worked out. All reports say it is pretty good.

    Lion Janesville(PPE). This is what most of us are wearing now. It seems a little restrictive and doesnt seem to wear that good. After a few washings it seems to really show the use.



    Any help or comments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RES81CUE
    We have been looking for the latest an greatest turnout gear for us to purchase. Basically there are 3 types that are considered the best in this area.
    Morning Pride (PPE) Expensive Some love it some hate it. Who knows

    Globe G Extreme (PPE) nice but kindve pricey and still new enough to wonder if all the bugs are worked out. All reports say it is pretty good.

    Lion Janesville(PPE). This is what most of us are wearing now. It seems a little restrictive and doesnt seem to wear that good. After a few washings it seems to really show the use.



    Any help or comments?


    Have you looked at FireDex?
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    I have read a few articles but, have not spoken to anyone about it. I am pretty sure no one is a dealer for it around here (Arkansas). But, I would not rule it out. The reason I ask about the gear is to have all the price info.

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    I've got grant apps for nearly every brand coming across my Inbox, so there doesn't seem to be a real favorite. The best thing to do is try on a set and crawl around in it, that's the only real way to see how you can move in it.

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    Contact me off line ( look at profile) and I'll get someone to call you on it.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Default Ff/emt-b

    Where is Arkansas?
    Are you a volunteer department?
    Call volume plays a big part in the $$ requested.
    Not knocking volunteer departments, I am a volunteer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midland35
    Where is Arkansas?
    Are you a volunteer department?
    Call volume plays a big part in the $$ requested.
    Not knocking volunteer departments, I am a volunteer!
    Dude, that really sounded like you were slamming a brother for asking a simple question. These forums are just for that. The only dumb question in here is one that does not get asked. Give the guy a break, maybe in the Ozarks they don't have a fire equipment dealer on every corner beating a path daily into the Chief's office. At least he has enough brains to ask before he jumps off the deep end first!
    Kurt Bradley
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780
    Have you looked at FireDex?
    Kurt-

    And I believe that you referred to me as a salesman (ha, ha, ha).

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

    (Cairns Protective Clothing and Globe Lifeline EMS and Tech Rescue Dealer in Illinois only)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd599
    Kurt-

    And I believe that you referred to me as a salesman (ha, ha, ha).

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

    (Cairns Protective Clothing and Globe Lifeline EMS and Tech Rescue Dealer in Illinois only)

    Touche' guy! 99% consultant 1% sales but, they pay my salary. Got to give them a plug sometime. What can I say.LOL!
    Kurt Bradley
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midland35
    Where is Arkansas?
    Are you a volunteer department?
    Call volume plays a big part in the $$ requested.
    Not knocking volunteer departments, I am a volunteer!
    First of all If you dont know where Arkansas is I dont have enough time to offer any help to you. But if your response was supposed to be as rude as it was received I am not here for that kind of smart ***** remarks. I will tell you this, We only run a couple of hundred runs a year. But we are regarded as a very well trained department. We respond on a regular basis to assist large "paid" departments. We have a ISO rating of a 4 and only use hauled water. All Firefighters Firefighter 1 &2 certified and are EMT's or Paramedic's and all are certified rescue divers. So your attitude was not well received and I am sure others on this forum do not want to read your crap either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RES81CUE
    First of all If you dont know where Arkansas is I dont have enough time to offer any help to you. But if your response was supposed to be as rude as it was received I am not here for that kind of smart ***** remarks. I will tell you this, We only run a couple of hundred runs a year. But we are regarded as a very well trained department. We respond on a regular basis to assist large "paid" departments. We have a ISO rating of a 4 and only use hauled water. All Firefighters Firefighter 1 &2 certified and are EMT's or Paramedic's and all are certified rescue divers. So your attitude was not well received and I am sure others on this forum do not want to read your crap either.
    Well said guy!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Kurt-

    Not touchy at all....... I'm just 99% Firefighter, .75% Grant Consultant, .25% Salesman (salesman only because we have bills to pay).

    Our company was formed because of our passion and love for the fire service and I try to provide only factual (to the best of my knowledge) information that can help out my fellow brothers and sisters in the Fire and EMS service.

    I never try to push products or manufacturers unless someone asks a product specific question that I may have an answer to.

    Then again....maybe I was a little touchy when you referred to me as a saleman and also misquoted/or misread my post regarding the DHS figures from last year. We helped several Illinois departments procure funds last year and if they asked for a complete ensemble, then they were limited to $2,000. If they only asked for bunker pants, then usually (not always) they were limited to $1200/set. Also, I stated that the DRD is a proposed update, no where did I state that this was a current NFPA mandate.

    As a firefighter, I would recommend that departments do get the most bang for their buck by purchasing high quality gear that meets their needs. I have been in the fire service for 10 years and a member of three different fire departments. During this time, I have been fortunate (or maybe unfortunate) to have worn gear from several manufacturers and also been able to see that there are significant differences in quality and service varying from one manufacturer to the next. What good is PBI gear if it doesn't fit correctly, is poorly constructed, and has poor durability? I would say a good waste of our hard earned tax dollars!

    Ok, enough already.....I am off my soapbox for now.

    Good luck to all with this year's AFG Program!

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

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    Default Ff/emt-b

    I am on a volunteer department in Arkansas. I only asked the question because I know of a dealer that not only sells PPE he wears it, too.
    A little different if he knows and uses what he sells.
    No intentions of stepping on toes!

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    Looks like someone meant to type 'Where IN Arkansas', not 'Where IS Arkansas'

    And look at all of the fun postings came out of that little misunderstanding. Everyone now realize why we all say to check for the minor details in your grant applications? Massive misconceptions over one little letter happen all of the time, especially in the pressure cooker called Peer Review.

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