Question with PPE Grant

[RES81CUE]

Hello guys, I am currently working on a grant to replace 20 sets of Turnouts. I have been checking with some of the suppliers to make sure we are covered with the prices. I am being told to make the dollar amount as low as possible so that I make my grant a little more acceptable. But, If I receive the grant I want to buy the best that I can get (More bang for the Buck). We are looking to purchase 20 sets of PBI gear Leather boots and a personel rechargable light. I am looking at asking for around 1700-1800 per set. What do you guys think?

[zoom40]

I think you should put in for $2000 per complete set. There is no way I would put in for the personal light. I think the gurus on this forum would call that mixing high priority with very, very low priority items. Why let a $100 light keep you from gettin new PPE... just my 2 cents..

[rfd599]

Res81cue-

I am in agreement with hillybilly that you should go for a complete ensemble because your funding limits will give you a little more room to move on gear if boot and helmet prices are lower than anticipated. However, do not get stuck on the $2000 figure, I have not seen anywhere that this will be the magic number this year. With the proposed NFPA 1971-2006 update, gear prices will rise at least $50-$95/set for a Drag Rescue Device. Inflation, fuel, shipping, etc....has affected our new pricing and hopefully the government will take this into account. I would go after the essentials (coat, pants, helmets, gloves, hoods, and boots) and if you can get the lights with the $5K excess, then go for it.

Earlier you stated that you wanted to get the most bang for your buck with PBI. Keep in mind that PBI is only the outer shell component of your bunker gear, there are other vital components (thermal liner and moisture barrier) that give the suit high TPP and THL numbers. Other outer shell materials such as: Ultra Advance, Advance, among others may be more cost effective with a good thermal and moisture barrier and keep your firefighters safe. Also, don't forget comfort and workmanship. You want to get a product that the guys are comfortable wearing and that will be durable for the future. Most small departments only have one opportunity in a significant number of years to replace gear, so they need to keep in mind future maintenance issues.

rfd599
www.IllinoisFireStore.com

[ktb9780]

Folks the limits last year was $1200.00 per set of Structural pants and coat. Contrary to what you may be being told by "salesman", and remember I work with 46 of them all the time, DHS always has the option of setting a price limit and they frequently do.

Last year there were many instances of SCBA requests and turnouts requests being asked to accept lower limits. Remember that there is $150 million less in the program this year and the competition will be even tougher than in years past as DHS will seek to fund the maiximum number of departments that it can with the money they have available. If your request is not "reasonable" ,you may not be afforded the chance to even take a lower amount, they will simply move on to another application that is less cost to them.

The word "reasonable" is mentioned on no less than 8 times in the PG. That speaks volumes to shopping price and keeping to the "basics" here, Don't buy a Cadillac when a VW will do the job. In this case the VWs will be leaving the Cadillacs sitting at the start line! It is a handup ,not a handout and raising the greedy flag up the flagpole to a reviewer is a sure way to get your whole grant thrown out. It does not matter one bit what YOU think is a prirority here, it ONLY matters what THEY think. It is their program and they set the rules folks, Play by the rules and you get funded, try to bend them to fit your whims and the DJ blues will beset you every time.See below for the paragraph quoted directly from PG that concerns this:

Reasonableness of a Request
The panelists will review all of the applications in the competitive range and judge each application on its own merits. The panelists will consider all expenses budgeted, including administrative and indirect, as part of the cost-benefit determination and may recommend appropriate adjustments. Regardless of the eligibility of any costs requested, we reserve the right to reduce any requests for assistance, in whole or in part, that we deem to be excessive or otherwise contrary to the best interests of this program.


Forewarned is forewarned here folks. By the way, flashlights are lower priority.

[N2DFire]

I agree w/ 1 thing - ask for $2000 per set (this was the Max allowable by the AFG for a set of TOG on '05) unless you already have prices for gear and they are higher than $2K then list the quoted cost.

If your grant application otherwise has merit and the powers that be think you're asking too much they will contact you and ask if you would be willing to accept the grant with a reduction in price. They did for us. Reduced from $2500 per suit to $2000. I still managed to do some dealing to get everything we wanted under $2k with room to spare. We did get leather boots - not rubber.

Funded grant from 2005
Project 1 – Personal Protective Equipment:

This project includes the purchase of a full set of fitted structural turn out gear (TOG) for each of our 25 active members. This gear will include a Helmet, Nomex Hood, Coat, Pants with suspenders, Gloves, and Boots. Additionally it will include a personal hand light for each member and a gear bag to store & protect the gear when not in use.

FYI - here's a link to our full narrative - http://www.firegraphics.org/Grants/FVFD2005.htm
Thanks to Brian aka BC79er for hosting this.

Good luck with your application and grant in '06.

Edit - Kurt posted while I was writing.

Kurt - I can guarantee that you've forgotten more about the grant process than I'll ever know, but I think we have an Apples to Oranges issue.
The limit of $1200 was indeed for Coat & Pants.
The limit for "Complete Turnouts" (to include boots, helmet, and gloves) was $2000

Edit # 2 - darn typos - I need more coffee

[ktb9780]

One more thing the NFPA change is still only a "proposed" change it is NOT in effect yet and as such, you can't use that as justification.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Quite correct from the gentleman in Florida, only the NFPA Standards in effect at the time of application are justification.

[RES81CUE]

Res81cue-

I am in agreement with hillybilly that you should go for a complete ensemble because your funding limits will give you a little more room to move on gear if boot and helmet prices are lower than anticipated. However, do not get stuck on the $2000 figure, I have not seen anywhere that this will be the magic number this year. With the proposed NFPA 1971-2006 update, gear prices will rise at least $50-$95/set for a Drag Rescue Device. Inflation, fuel, shipping, etc....has affected our new pricing and hopefully the government will take this into account. I would go after the essentials (coat, pants, helmets, gloves, hoods, and boots) and if you can get the lights with the $5K excess, then go for it.

Earlier you stated that you wanted to get the most bang for your buck with PBI. Keep in mind that PBI is only the outer shell component of your bunker gear, there are other vital components (thermal liner and moisture barrier) that give the suit high TPP and THL numbers. Other outer shell materials such as: Ultra Advance, Advance, among others may be more cost effective with a good thermal and moisture barrier and keep your firefighters safe. Also, don't forget comfort and workmanship. You want to get a product that the guys are comfortable wearing and that will be durable for the future. Most small departments only have one opportunity in a significant number of years to replace gear, so they need to keep in mind future maintenance issues.

rfd599
www.IllinoisFireStore.com

Well I thought I was pretty knowledgable About this stuff but, you got me on the TPP and THL numbers. Please explain

[ktb9780]

Well I thought I was pretty knowledgable About this stuff but, you got me on the TPP and THL numbers. Please explain

THL- Total Heat Loss
TPP- Thermal Protective Performance

Your welcome.

[rfd599]

Res81cue-

Without going into a huge ranting:

1) TPP-Thermal Protective Performance (Thermal Insulation)

Thicker/Heavier=Higher TPP (Protection)

2) THL-Total Heat Loss (Breathability)

Lighter/Thinner Garment=Higher THL (Comfort)

Both tests are taken on all three layers of protection together. Usually, there is an inverse relationship between TPP's and THL's. As TPP gets higher, the gear gets heavier and more cumbersome and THL gets lower.

Inversely, if you have a high THL then the gear is lighter and more comfortable, but the TPP values are reduced and do not offer as much thermal protection. These numbers need to be a balancing act of comfort and protection to fit your needs.

rfd599
www.IllinoisFireStore.com

[RES81CUE]

[QUOTE=ktb9780]THL- Total Heat Loss
TPP- Thermal Protective Performance

Your welcome.

Ok gotcha I thought you was talking about grant application stuff.

Thanks

[RES81CUE]

We have been looking for the latest an greatest turnout gear for us to purchase. Basically there are 3 types that are considered the best in this area.
Morning Pride (PPE) Expensive Some love it some hate it. Who knows

Globe G Extreme (PPE) nice but kindve pricey and still new enough to wonder if all the bugs are worked out. All reports say it is pretty good.

Lion Janesville(PPE). This is what most of us are wearing now. It seems a little restrictive and doesnt seem to wear that good. After a few washings it seems to really show the use.



Any help or comments?

[ktb9780]

We have been looking for the latest an greatest turnout gear for us to purchase. Basically there are 3 types that are considered the best in this area.
Morning Pride (PPE) Expensive Some love it some hate it. Who knows

Globe G Extreme (PPE) nice but kindve pricey and still new enough to wonder if all the bugs are worked out. All reports say it is pretty good.

Lion Janesville(PPE). This is what most of us are wearing now. It seems a little restrictive and doesnt seem to wear that good. After a few washings it seems to really show the use.



Any help or comments?

Have you looked at FireDex?

[RES81CUE]

I have read a few articles but, have not spoken to anyone about it. I am pretty sure no one is a dealer for it around here (Arkansas). But, I would not rule it out. The reason I ask about the gear is to have all the price info.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

I've got grant apps for nearly every brand coming across my Inbox, so there doesn't seem to be a real favorite. The best thing to do is try on a set and crawl around in it, that's the only real way to see how you can move in it.

[ktb9780]

Contact me off line ( look at profile) and I'll get someone to call you on it.

[Midland35]

Where is Arkansas?
Are you a volunteer department?
Call volume plays a big part in the $$ requested.
Not knocking volunteer departments, I am a volunteer!

[ktb9780]

Where is Arkansas?
Are you a volunteer department?
Call volume plays a big part in the $$ requested.
Not knocking volunteer departments, I am a volunteer!

Dude, that really sounded like you were slamming a brother for asking a simple question. These forums are just for that. The only dumb question in here is one that does not get asked. Give the guy a break, maybe in the Ozarks they don't have a fire equipment dealer on every corner beating a path daily into the Chief's office. At least he has enough brains to ask before he jumps off the deep end first!

[rfd599]

Have you looked at FireDex?

Kurt-

And I believe that you referred to me as a salesman (ha, ha, ha).

rfd599
www.IllinoisFireStore.com

(Cairns Protective Clothing and Globe Lifeline EMS and Tech Rescue Dealer in Illinois only)

[ktb9780]

Kurt-

And I believe that you referred to me as a salesman (ha, ha, ha).

rfd599
www.IllinoisFireStore.com

(Cairns Protective Clothing and Globe Lifeline EMS and Tech Rescue Dealer in Illinois only)

Touche' guy! 99% consultant 1% sales but, they pay my salary. Got to give them a plug sometime. What can I say.LOL!