1. #1
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    Default Tower Ladder Placement

    What is your Departments procedure for 1st arriving Tower Ladders at a taxpayer (stripmall) fire?

    1. Where are they assigned to postion?
    2. Are aerials allowed to take the same positon or are they encouraged to leave space for the tower ladders?
    (by tower ladders I mean Buckets, Platforms...etc.)
    3. What duties do the members on these rigs have on a building such as this...what are the tool assignments?

    Are they given access to the front? Are they placed blocks away?

    FTM-PTB

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    Our procedure is for the 1st in engine to always leave room for the tower. The tower driver has his pick of the positions. Depending on where the fire is, determines where he will park. He will park in such a way as to be able to cut off the fire if the tower has to, and at the same time beable to go to the roof. Most of the time the tower is in the front of the building, or on one of the corners. We don't have assigned tools to grab on the ladder, it really depends on what task they are going to undertake as to what they grab. We don't use our tower as it should be or as often as it should be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    What is your Departments procedure for 1st arriving Tower Ladders at a taxpayer (stripmall) fire?
    You already know the answer for the career dept.....heres the one for the vollies.......

    1. Where are they assigned to postion?
    Wereever they stop......pretty sad I say.

    2. Are aerials allowed to take the same positon or are they encouraged to leave space for the tower ladders?
    There is no plan........they have a TL but don't have a clue what its there for.

    3. What duties do the members on these rigs have on a building such as this...what are the tool assignments?
    They have tried to adopt FDNYs Ladders 3. But they do not understand it at all. Since December I have gone to 3 house fires with them...and each one turned into a disaster......the biggest problem is venting WAY to early and venting to much. I had some 2 year wonder who is a LT yelling at me to vent, I calmley tried to expailn why it wasn't a good idea, fell on deaf ears, I watched him take a window in an adjacent bedroom, I also watched the fire roll right into the unburned room........They burned down all 3 houses so far.....sad part is that fire was in only 1 room on arrival in each case, and blowing out the windows....the "saftey officer" wouldn't allow anyone inside b/c there was too much fire out the window .....I couldn't believe it.....

    Are they given access to the front? Are they placed blocks away?
    I tried to explain this one day, but the look I got told me "lights on, no one's home".

    At one of these jobs, the could have used the tower bucket from street level....I suggested it and I was told that it can't be done and its unsafe. "that's not what tower ladders are for".....my answer was, "your right, they're for parades......ya' cowards"

    Sad state of operations, IMO.


    *****added....I just came back from a small fire in the wall in the basement.....PPV fan to remove smoke.....wall not opened up.....for visual inspection first......unbelievable.....
    Last edited by VinnieB; 03-14-2006 at 12:43 AM.

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    How timely...a 5th Alarm in Jamaica, Queens on Sutphin Blvd. Although this is just one photo...we can see the first due Towers are up close and hitting it with the streams.

    Photos by Steve Spak. Visit his web site at www.stevespak.com.

    FTM-PTB

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    WOW Vinnie such frustration in your words! I can understand. Ummm my volly company has adopted some parts of Ladders 3 and is putting it to use with some good success! Some people seem to have difficulty with it but for the most part it works relatively well. It helps provide a little order to the company on the fire ground. Give guys a little direction as to where they should be, ie roof, ov, can, irons. It has also helped our guys take tools, they used to get off the rig with no tools, now everyone has a tool assignment and we don't have any of that bull crap of going back to the rig for some basic tool. My volly company has a 95 ft rear mount tower ladder so it is great "when and if" we get the front of the building. Now we just have to get the rest of the engine company chauffers in the town to leave the front of the building open for the truck.

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    The city got rid of all our Towers
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    While there is no procedure .............we would obviously leave room for them up front and have them prepare for a trrench cut depending in fire location & involvment. Either way they will be ventilation unless/until we go defensive.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    1. Where are they assigned to postion?
    When it arrives and is put in service mid-May, it will be assigned to the front of the building that is on fire, outside of any "collapse" zone. We have nothing over 3 stories tall so it will most often end up in middle of street.

    2. Are aerials allowed to take the same positon or are they encouraged to leave space for the tower ladders?
    (by tower ladders I mean Buckets, Platforms...etc.)
    This is our only aerial so no others will be in it's way. Engines are to pull past or stop short and leave the area open.

    3. What duties do the members on these rigs have on a building such as this...what are the tool assignments?
    First Due Truck Assignments for Commercial Structure:

    Interior Team:
    Force entry to fire building
    Search and locate fire
    Lead engine company to the fire
    Search for life
    Ventilate rear of building

    Exterior Team:
    --- Driver
    Position truck in front of the fire building
    Raise aerial
    --- Roof
    Initiate vertical ventilation - start with scuttles, skylights, etc.
    Monitor roof and report to IC
    Size and shape of the building
    Location and volume of fire or smoke
    Exposures sides and read
    Roof loading signs, AC units, etc.
    Evidence of cockloft fire
    Roof construction
    Presence or absence of extending parapets or evidence of fire walls
    Difference in the levels of the roof
    --- OV
    Check the rear and sides for access
    Provide vertical ventilation in the rear
    Gain access and conduct a search, when the 2nd Due OV arrives
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    In anticipation of our new tower arriving this fall: beginning yesterday my shift is running the aerial out first ahead of the engine to ensure the best position. We're pretty good most of teh time at leaving the aerial the front, but are trying to determine the pitfalls of ladder/tower first responses(feel free to list any you can think of). We have run a stick forever until last year ours failed and we rented a tower, unfortuneately we had to take a stick again while we await a new tower. Upon delivery of the new tower Mike Wilbur will be conducting a 5 day tower operators course for our personnel and staff officers to maximize our potentail. We realize, that we don't know, what we don't know.

    My inclination on the taxpayer and our current response is to run the tower (only aerial in our burg) out first and take the front and let the engines fall in where they may. The second, third and fourth due aerials are sticks. Not another tower for 2 hrs in any direction.

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    What is a tower ladder? Considering in my **** poor county we don't have a lsdder truck and maximum ground ladders of 24', we can't even reach the roof of most commercial structures. Waiting for the disaster to happen.

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    1. Where are they assigned to postion? -Front of the building, when possible. Engines are encouraged to pull past the building, even when using preconnects.

    2. Are aerials allowed to take the same positon or are they encouraged to leave space for the tower ladders? (by tower ladders I mean Buckets, Platforms...etc.) -We have a 100' platform and one 75' straight stick for our 2 truck companies. Also one 75' stick which is a quint used as an engine. We only get one truck co. at a fire without callbacks, usually the platform goes to commercials or multiple dwellings.

    3. What duties do the members on these rigs have on a building such as this...what are the tool assignments? 3 man rig. Officer and a FF are interior team. Irons, hook, can. Driver is OV with a hook. When the Rescue co arrives, one partners with the OV, the Officer and 1 FF form another team to perform vertical vent, utility control, or any other duty ordered by the IC.

    My personal pet peeve is the platform seems to always go above the fire and pour water down, rather than work through the windows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv
    My personal pet peeve is the platform seems to always go above the fire and pour water down, rather than work through the windows.
    It amazing how often this is the case! Sad use of fine apparatus. I never stop being amazed at the lack of good tactics used by many metro departments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv
    My personal pet peeve is the platform seems to always go above the fire and pour water down, rather than work through the windows.
    It amazing how often this is the case! Sad use of fine apparatus. I never stop being amazed at the lack of good tactics used by many metro departments. You'd think so people would learn tower use from FDNY, except they couldn't possibly admit that maybe they know a little more than the average dept. Anotehr amaizng fact is the number of chiefs who think fires burn differently in their burg than in NYC. Maybe its something in the air there? FFRED or Vinnie any studies done on the chemical chain reaction of fires in NYC vs. the rest of the world?

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    Its not just Metro guys. Many Many Vollie depts do the same....my last 2 had TL but had NOOOO clue what they were for. I have seen Chicago and Boston pics were they are directing it upwards.

    But to answer the question......I dunno....maybe it has something to do with the water...........
    IACOJ Member

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    The picture provides a good visual lesson, look at the TL in the foreground and it's position in relation to the bldg, the other two TL's have a far better position to operate at a taxpayer fire. In a situation like the fire in the picture TL's should be positioned for maximum coverage of the objective (in this case the storefronts) positioning a TL parallel to the objective turned slightly away from the bldg affords us the best coverage, the bucket can be positioned to drive the stream from the sidewalk area upward into the cockloft or into the rear of the store, it can also be brought up to **** on it after all else fails, a position too often taken without trying to operate upward into the cockloft allowing the fire, heat, and smoke to be driven upward. Going over the cab of the rig or off the rear gives you few options for positioning the bucket and the stream.
    As always JMHO. Stay safe!

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    Oh, believe me I know there are plenty of Vol. Co.'s mis-using their towers. Maybe I shouldn't be biased but it seems worse when we who are paid to do this fulltime don't know the difference. And yes, I know some great vol. companies who get it right as a rule.

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    Mine is more of a case of I know how and want to use it correctly, but I am hindered by the higher powers that be. We don't always use ours to its for potential, due to lack of manpower and equipment that they put on our tower. Unfortionately the Chief didn't want to pay extra for all the equipment that should be on that truck, so we have scraped by trying to make due.

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    What exactly is FDNY's "Ladders3"?

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    Ladders 3 is the SOPs for our ladder operations at tenement fires. (If you do a Yahoo or Google search of FDNY Ladders 3, it should come up. All 74 pages.)

    Edited to add: JF, posting at 550 in the morning? You are a sick sick man
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 03-16-2006 at 06:04 PM.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Ladders 3 is the SOPs for our ladder operations.
    Should read.... "our ladder ops at Tenements" (& Mulitple dwellings) Which more or less translates to all ladder operations. It is the basis for everything else which is orgainized around it.

    Ladders 1=Portables
    Ladders 2=Aerial Ladder ops
    Ladders 3=Tenements
    Ladders 4=Private Dwellings
    Ladders 5=revoked
    Ladders 6=Tower Ladder ops.

    FTM-PTB

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    Yeah I left that part out. just changed it. sorry. long day detailed to the EMS express....
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEAN15
    What exactly is FDNY's "Ladders3"?
    thanks .........I was wonderin that too !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1
    thanks .........I was wonderin that too !
    Here you go brother. Ladders 3 is basically the bible for truck work when it comes to "the job".


    http://sageauthoring.com/fdny/ft&p/ftplad03.pdf
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    FFFred,

    We have one of the highest truck to pumper ratios in the country, yet we still have many officers and chiefs that don't have a clue when it comes to ladder placement. This of course trickles down so that future officers and chiefs will in turn also be clueless as well!!

    95% of our fires are handled with pre-connects. Because of this people have developed the mindset that the engine has to be within reach of the hose instead of worrying about ladder company placement.

    Most of our aerials are 100' rearmounts. We have three 95' platforms and about 6 or 7 tillers left. I have argues on many occasions that the trucks have at best, a 50' margin of error. The margin of error for our engine companies is over 1800 feet!!

    Albeit I agree that it is impractical to stretch more than neccessary, it is much easier for an engine company to stretch around or past a truck than it is to stretch the stick.

    Park the truck close enough or come up short are your only options.

    Vinnie - thanks for the pdf.

    We have many more weak trucks than good ones. Not saying that the guys on them are not good, I just feel they are not used or allowed to operate to their greatest capacity.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    You can always stretch a hose, you can never strech a ladder.

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