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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber sdff1520's Avatar
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    Default Tanker Application Opinion

    Looking for some input from folks who may have actually received funding for apparatus or have some good ideas as to what it takes for a successfull apparatus application. I am considering submitting an application to replace one of our tankers, its was built by us, its not properly baffled, its not NFPA compliant, its OLD, it has a ton of miles on it, and has some mechanical issues. My questions is would it appear as though our department is in a situation that would allow this application to be competitive. I hate to waste the app on a tanker considering the odds of actually getting an apparatus, but that is one of our largest needs. We have previouslly addressed PPE, compressor, fill station, etc... we don't really need to replace our SCBA, they arn't that old, bought them in 1998.

    Department profile:
    Rural - city population 1,300, plus we protect roughly 450 square miles of rural area with another 1,500 population - running 30-40 fire calls per year.

    Apparatus:
    Engine 1 (structural engine) - new in 2000
    Engine 2 (structural engine) - new in 1979

    Tanker 1 (home-made) - 1995
    Tanker 2 (home-made) - 1971 (this is the one we want to send down the road)

    Brush 1 - 1986 pickup
    Brush 2 - 1992 pickup
    Brush 3 - 1995 pickup

    Do we have a chance at being competitive? Do we own to much apparatus? Is the 1995 tanker going to hurt our app because its to new? Is the new engine in 2000 going to hurt us at all? Thoughts? Opinions? Discussion? All are welcome?

    Thanks for the input
    Rick Gustad - Chief
    Platte Volunteer Fire Department
    www.plattevfd.com


  2. #2
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    Default

    We need some more info such as are the tankers only tankers or are they pumper/ tankers. To be a pumper/tanker they have to meet NFPA for a pumper and tanker. If they are both tankers ie: same catagory, then your chances are slim to none. I beleive that in order to be sucessfuf you must have 1 or none of the vehicles that you are applying for. The other engines and brush trucks should't hurt you if you can get past the 2 tanker issue.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber sdff1520's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by waterboy1
    We need some more info such as are the tankers only tankers or are they pumper/ tankers. To be a pumper/tanker they have to meet NFPA for a pumper and tanker. If they are both tankers ie: same catagory, then your chances are slim to none. I beleive that in order to be sucessfuf you must have 1 or none of the vehicles that you are applying for. The other engines and brush trucks should't hurt you if you can get past the 2 tanker issue.
    The tankers are tanker only, they have small booster pumps (18hp 150 gpm) just to run the occasional handline and offload water etc... They are simple water on wheels, with small pump and quick dumps.
    Rick Gustad - Chief
    Platte Volunteer Fire Department
    www.plattevfd.com

  4. #4
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    Default

    I'll throw in a similar scenario (and seems to pertain to a lot of small rural depts). 35mi2 pop 350 (including a city of 130) avg 10-15 fire calls/yr. In the last 3yrs we've solved/are solving all our other major problem and what we still need to solve is apparatus, biggest need is tender/tanker.

    Current fleet:

    511 - 1985 commercial L9000 1000gpm/1500gal 12000mi. We purchased in 2003 with all cash we could scrape up and a USDA grant (replaced a 1970 POS). Expect to use 10-15yr.
    513 - 1988 IH1854 4x4 Brush truck - Forestery FEPP 600gal/18hp portable pump. Expect to use 10-15yr.
    512 - 1988 L8000 homebuilt converted milk truck. 150000mi 2600gal unbaffled SS milk tank. Rear axle load is within mfg axle load rating but exceeds Iowa bridge/road limits. 16hp portable pump. Manual transmission which is not optimal. Largest tanker in the area (all others avg 1800gal).

    We only have 6x seats in available on these. Rest of dept has to respond in POVs.

    511 is a tanker pumper according to AFG. Why use a rural dept would have for something with less than 1000gal of water on board (a pumper tanker) I don't understand. And in a small fleet why a tanker that has no pump (assuming $ allow/AFG). But apparently AFG scores you down if you want 2 pumper tankers. Is this correct? IE better off with tender only req?

    What we would like is replace our tanker a real tanker. 3500gal NFPA compliant pumper tanker. Min 1500gpm rear mount. Commercial or custom cab so we have seats for at least 4-5 FF. We are working to for ISO rating and need tanker capacity, mutual aid not much help (none within 10min). This truck will act as supply engine, set up at road and pump LDH to the attack engine (511). In all likelyhood might well move up and become the attack engine and lay in from the road. Role on mutual aid calls which are 1/2 of our business as tender.

    Could no doubt design/build as tender only and add pump down the road if it made the app score better.

    BUT more important do we have any hope of scoring high enough to get any kind fo vehicle grant?

  5. #5
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    sdff - the 95 hurts, and considering your call volume, not a real demonstrated need for more than one. Not saying it personally as a firefighter, saying it from the grant program perspective.

    Roger - you don't score lower with a pumper-tanker than just a tender. They're in the same category. The difference is in how much the truck costs having the pump and other toys on it and whether or not that crosses the magic $ amount mark over which you're not competitive anymore. And your trucks don't really meet the age priority. Not compared with others that are asking for trucks this year. But it goes back to what the assessment says. If you really don't need anything else then it's worth the shot instead of just making stuff up for a different project. If you think it's your greatest need, then go for it and support the request. Worst thing that can happen is that they say no and you're still in the same spot doing the same thing.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber sdff1520's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    sdff - the 95 hurts, and considering your call volume, not a real demonstrated need for more than one. Not saying it personally as a firefighter, saying it from the grant program perspective. .

    Let me add a bit more information and then get another opinion. The 1995 is home-made as well, and was put into service in 2004 to replace a 1968 IH 1,200 gallon tanker that was rusted out (flooded the station a couple of times becuase the plumbing rusted and broke loose from the tank) and had a bent frame, and frankly just wasn't safe to drive anymore. As far as our need for two tankers. We are in VERY rural america...we have ver little mutual aid resources available, and call for mutual aid is 45 minutes out minimum. It is vital that we arrive on-scene with enough water to support initial attack activity, drop the water at the scene and return for more to support continuing ops. Most likely our tankers can return with the next load and maybe even 2 trips before our mutual aid support will arrive. Simply a square mileage thing, nearest communities with tanker support are 30+ road miles out.

    Also the structural engine thing, the 2000 was purchased to replace a 1948 model - it was getting a bit old and tired as well.

    Brian, you think we have a prayer at being competitive? or shall I ditch the tanker idea and come up with something else.
    Rick Gustad - Chief
    Platte Volunteer Fire Department
    www.plattevfd.com

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    Even with that, the situation is that you solved the problem already to some extent. Remember, you're going against people with 1 tanker of the 70s era that are looking to replace it, some with no pumper newer than 85, and more of a call volume. Again, not trying to diminish your need, but part of putting in competitive apps is knowing what else is out there and who else is worse off with less money and more calls.

    If your PPE is new, SCBA is good, other equipment is alright, then shoot for the tanker but don't forget everything you just typed here.

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    Default Wait a minute....

    Am I missing something-after all it's like 5:30am and been up since 4:00pm.....

    These folks are running a home made tender? Homemade as in a converted milk truck w/o baffled tanks and all the NFPA Apparatus standard stuff?

    Cost benefit is 1.15 per person, and if you add mutual aid pop...cost is less then dollar per person covered based on 150k tender?

    I say go for it JUSTIFY IT, but the need is there

  9. #9
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    Home made matters but when other people are running older chassis home-made they'll still score lower in comparision. It's still a 1995 truck, home-made or not, so engineering and design is a whole lot better than a chassis from the 70s or 80s, so it is a safer truck in direct comparison. That's the difference on why it's not a slam dunk decision. If they were both 79 home-mades we wouldn't have even made it this far in the discussion.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber sdff1520's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    Home made matters but when other people are running older chassis home-made they'll still score lower in comparision. It's still a 1995 truck, home-made or not, so engineering and design is a whole lot better than a chassis from the 70s or 80s, so it is a safer truck in direct comparison. That's the difference on why it's not a slam dunk decision. If they were both 79 home-mades we wouldn't have even made it this far in the discussion.
    Guess my main question is do we have a chance at making it past the computer scoring...if so I'll submit my application and rely on the merits of my narrative to justify the need and cost benefit. If I won't make it past computer scoring and no one will ever read the narrative I'll try and come up with something else....

  11. #11
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    Rick, if I could predict that for you I'd be typing this from the Caribbean after winning every lottery for the past 6 months. All we can do is take educated guesses and hope for the best. And whatever decision you make, stick with it, defend it, and your narrative will be airtight if it does make it.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber sdff1520's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    Rick, if I could predict that for you I'd be typing this from the Caribbean after winning every lottery for the past 6 months. All we can do is take educated guesses and hope for the best. And whatever decision you make, stick with it, defend it, and your narrative will be airtight if it does make it.
    I realize there are no 100% predictions, just trying to get a "gut-feeling" ... hate to waste the time on the app if it has the preverbial "snow-balls chance in hell" On the other hand the old 1970 tanker is currently our biggest need and one of our largest exposures as far as comprimising the safety of our staff is concerned. We have other needs obviously, but this is the biggest need and due to $$$ one of the needs that we have virtually no chance at addressing without significant financial assistance.

    Rick

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    Well sounds like you just made your decision based on need and safety. You have a need for water supply, and I'm not trying to tell you the 1995 tanker isn't a factor. It is, so just be prepared to talk about why you need two. That's all. The algorithms that compute statistical need are mysteries to all of us, so no one can say for sure at which point it decides that your square mileage and hydrant coverage dictate when you should have X amount of water on wheels. Your call volume hurts any project, not just truck. It's just more pronounced when taken into consideration with the cost of the truck. As long as you aren't going for a war wagon you should have a decent shot at it.

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    Nope - no war wagon ... Pretty much water on wheels, small booster pump, quickdumps, porta-tanks and thats it ....
    Rick Gustad - Chief
    Platte Volunteer Fire Department
    www.plattevfd.com

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    Rick, my South Dakota department was awarded a tanker last year. One of the elements we used in our application narrative was a publication put out by FEMA and the US Fire Adminstration entitled "Safe Operation of Fire Tankers". This is available from FEMA's website free of charge. They hate home built tankers like the piece of #$!$# we have, a 1960 military transport. We quoted numerous passages related to fatalities related to home built vehicles from there own publication. I know what you guys are up against in your area. Also, Senator Tim Johnson and Congresswoman Stephanie Herseth were helpful by sending letters of support. Senator Thune never replied to our request, so I don't know what happened there. I would apply, but you do have to make your narrative stick. Using FEMAs own information does help. Best of Luck! Captain Nemo

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber sdff1520's Avatar
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    captainnemo, may I ask what department in SD? Also how much did you spend on the new tanker and if you don't mind what manufacturer did you get it from?

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    Nemo VFD, Nemo S.D. (Black Hills west of Rapid City) 188,000, FWD due to terrain, 2000 gal tank,
    500 gpm pump(pto) crosslays and all equipment to make it NFPA compliant. Danko of Snyder N.E. got the contract to build it.
    Brian (BC79ER) knows his stuff I have learned much from him over the years. He is right it will be tough, but I think you can justify it.
    Mutual aid state wide helps! Seems to me I saw some of you guys out here in 2002 during Grizzly Gulch. I know how alone you guys are out in the flatlands.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainnemo
    Nemo VFD, Nemo S.D. (Black Hills west of Rapid City) 188,000, FWD due to terrain, 2000 gal tank,
    500 gpm pump(pto) crosslays and all equipment to make it NFPA compliant. Danko of Snyder N.E. got the contract to build it.
    Brian (BC79ER) knows his stuff I have learned much from him over the years. He is right it will be tough, but I think you can justify it.
    Mutual aid state wide helps! Seems to me I saw some of you guys out here in 2002 during Grizzly Gulch. I know how alone you guys are out in the flatlands.
    You are correct, we were there for Gizzzly Gulch as well as the others that year, Battle Creek, Little Elk. Is that bar in Nemo still open ... the one with the tree in it ... spent to much time in there a few years ago ... the next morning was a rough one!!! We were out in your neighboorhood last year as well. Matter of fact I was in the hills just last weekend for some training.
    Rick Gustad - Chief
    Platte Volunteer Fire Department
    www.plattevfd.com

  19. #19
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    Unfortunately the bar is closed but the tree is still there! We appreciate your help in saving our community. Check your email, I sent you a message.

    Greg

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