Thread: 6" hard suction

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    Default 6" hard suction

    Do any of you know of any mfgr. of 6" hard suction (the lightweight PVC) that can be used on at hydrant pressures.

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    JF,I don't know of any.The EZ bend PVC works great for drafting but doesn't work at all on a pressure hydrant.The only stuff we use on a pressure hydrant is the old hard sleeve. T.C.

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    Try Kocheck www.kocheck.com They make almost anything you could ever need as far as hard suction, soft suction, adapters, etc. They are usually pretty reasonably priced. Kocheck is sold by most fire equipment and truck dealers.

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    Yankee,We've GOT Kochek.But the clear suction JF's asking about won't stand hydrant pressure,or at least the stuff we have won't.Only the old hard sleeve style works on the pressure hydrants.Now they might have some clear that will,but no one around here has it.If you noticed JF was inquiring about the EZ bend clear PVC hose.If you hook that stuff to a pressure hydrant you'll either blow the couplings off it or put a hole in it.Seen both. Sarraight? T.C.

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    Since this conversation is going, I have a question I've pondered for quite some time. Why do you use hard suction on a hydrant? Isn't it easier, and cheaper, to buy a short section of 5"?
    Honestly curious if there's any benefits, or if it's a "we've always done it this way," or what the deal is.
    Last edited by Catch22; 03-20-2006 at 10:36 AM. Reason: typo

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    I wondered the same thing as Catch22...

    There is no benefit to using hard suction on a pressurized hydrant. You aren't going to get anymore water and it is a real pain to hook up if you don't practice it over and over and over. It takes 2 guys to do it efficiently and then I question the use of efficiently in this context. One guy can lay out a 25 or 50 foot section of 5 inch hose and your positioning isn't so critical.

    I would like to know why jfTL41 wants to do this.

    FyredUp

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    I believe it is Kochek that makes a flexible HARD suction, Darley carries it or at least they did. Why use it? Because you can park right on the curb throw a bight in it and hook up. I know one man can do it with 5" because I've done it myself. Also if you're going to tandem pump you need to hook up with a hard sleeve.

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    One guy can lay out a 25 or 50 foot section of 5 inch hose and your positioning isn't so critical.

    I would like to know why jfTL41 wants to do this.
    Ill see if I can answer part of this for him. Our positioning is critical. One of the main reasons our ECCs go for the 10 foot connections first is to ensure that the engine is as close to the sidewalk as possible. This will help keep the road open for our truck companies. On wider roads, positioning may not be as critical, but when you have already tight roads and people double parked up and down the block, it is an absolute necessity to keep as much of the road open as possible. Even though our ECCs are trained and know to get as far off the road as possible, the use of the 10 foot connection only helps insure this.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    So, if I understand this correctly, we're proposing employing a more cumbersome method of hooking to a hydrant (hard suction hose vs short sections of LDH) for the sole purpose of overcoming what is clearly a training and discipline issue (leaving room for the truck)?

    I think not.

    I'm firmly on the side of those who see no advantage whatsoever to hooking hard suction to a street hydrant. Maybe there's an advantage that doesn't apply to me and my area, but I don't know what that would be.

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    Why don't you get a 20 or 25 foot section of 6 inch LDH and use it to make the pumper to hydrant connection. Most pumpers have a front suction that if you spec'd the truck right it has this.

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    or maybe, since I think he is from FDNY, where they don't carry too much 5", he's looking to use what he has on his engine and just upgrade that? Not sure if the individual engine companies get to decide what size hose they buy.
    I would agree, using the hard sleeve over soft sleeve would not be justifiable as a positioning cure, at least for me.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    You use a hard sleeve because you'll kink a soft one. Those that are talking about using it are talking about streets that are so tight that if you make a steamer connection any other way you will block the street. One man can make the connection with no problem using the flexible HARD suction. I know I'm old and set in my ways, but if you can't make this connection by yourself with a 5" sleeve, you have no business driving the engine.

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    You use a hard sleeve because you'll kink a soft one. Those that are talking about using it are talking about streets that are so tight that if you make a steamer connection any other way you will block the street. One man can make the connection with no problem using the flexible HARD suction. I know I'm old and set in my ways, but if you can't make this connection by yourself with a 5" sleeve, you have no business driving the engine.
    What he said. If you cant connect the 5" hard connection by yourself, you should be nowhere near a fire engine.
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    Correct me if I am wrong but the type of "hard" suction the FDNY uses is not a traditional hard suction at all. It is a semi rigid suction that offers more rigidity than a piece of LDH but actually could not be used for drafting because it really is not a true rigid hard suction hose.

    I would love to see the driver that could position his rig EVERY time to be able to hook up the traditional hard suction to a hydrant all by himself without repositioning. Can it be done? Probably. Every time without repositioning? Don't think so.

    As for both my career and volly FD's. a short piece of LDH works fine for us.

    FyredUp

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    Fyredup , you are and I will:
    The 6" hard suction is exactly what I am asking about, 6" hard suction. The 10 foot soft suction is exactly that, the 10 foot soft suction 3.5 inch with 4.5" connections on both ends.
    The soft suction is used as a primary hydrant connection due to its flexiblity and resistance to kinking. It also keeps the engines close to the hydrant and out of the way of the trucks. Too many guys are relying on the 35 foot 5 inch in the front bumper which generally allows the engine co chauffer to block the road with the *** end of the rig and is much more succeptable to kinking.
    The 6" is used for drafting operations and in our books is to be used by later arriving units on 2nd alarm or greater fires. Most manufacturers of the lightwieght drafting hose won't rate the hose for being pressurized from a hydrant, the heavy stuff we now carry can be, looking for alternative if availible.

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    Interesting thread!!!! I guess I'm just a little confused because I was ALWAYS taught to NEVER use anything but LDH with a pressurized water source. The reason being that you could create a vacuum and damage the water system if you used hard suction hose.

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    Default Some clarification

    Here is a link to Engine Co. 277 with the soft suction (I know, I know no such thing) connected to the johnny pump.

    Engine Co. 277 with soft suction

    FTM-PTB

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    OK, I think I see now, it's a "Tender/Tanker" thing. I'm thinking of the rigid hard suction while you all are talking about a different animal all together. Makes more sense now. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter1244
    Interesting thread!!!! I guess I'm just a little confused because I was ALWAYS taught to NEVER use anything but LDH with a pressurized water source. The reason being that you could create a vacuum and damage the water system if you used hard suction hose.
    Your wagon have a compound guage? Use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    OK, I think I see now, it's a "Tender/Tanker" thing. I'm thinking of the rigid hard suction while you all are talking about a different animal all together. Makes more sense now. Thanks.
    I'm not sure what a "tender/Tanker" thing is that you are refering to...I just wanted to clarify there is a difference between the soft suction that was mentioned earlier in the thread and Hard Suction hose that jfTL41 was looking for. At least I think he is looking for a lighter version of our hard suction that is rated for hydrant pressures.

    Here is Engine Co. 23 with the soft suction hooked up and the hard suction left on the trays behind the pump panel.


    Engine Co. 75 also using the 10ft. soft connection.


    Here is Engine Co. 9's new Engine. The top two sections are Hard Suction...the lowest one is soft suction.
    Engine Co. 9

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-21-2006 at 01:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    I'm not sure what a "tender/Tanker" thing is that you are refering to...I just wanted to clarify there is a difference between the soft suction that was mentioned earlier in the thread and Hard Suction hose that jfTL41 was looking for. At least I think he is looking for a lighter version of our hard suction that is rated for hydrant pressures.
    I was just making a tongue in cheek comment. Tankers out west are airplanes and Tenders are trucks. Here Tankers are trucks, we don't use the term "Tender."

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    FFFred, looks to me like what you are calling soft suction is just smaller diameter hard sleeve.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    I was just making a tongue in cheek comment. Tankers out west are airplanes and Tenders are trucks. Here Tankers are trucks, we don't use the term "Tender."
    Ahhh...you say To-Mah-Tow I say To-May-tow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    FFFred, looks to me like what you are calling soft suction is just smaller diameter hard sleeve.
    It might look similar however it isn't hard at all.

    It is a 10 ft semi-rigid hose that when hooked up can have multiple bends and kinks in it and when the hose is charged 99% of the kinks and twists will be removed giving one an excellent supply of water from the hydrant.

    However it won't draw a vacuum as there are no rings in it...it is NOT hard suction and isn't used for that. The other two lengths of 10ft hard suction are used for that evolution.

    As jfTL41 stated at multiple alarms we are by the book to use the larger hard suction and not the soft connection.

    I hope that clears things up.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Does anyone have a guess on why at a multiple alarm we are to use the hard suction hose?
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-21-2006 at 03:21 PM.

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    PS- Does anyone have a guess on why at a multiple alarm we are to use the hard suction hose?
    I'll be honest, I still can't think of a reason to put a suction hose on a hydrant, other than to bring it closer to zero and risk the problems associated with that.

    Problems we have had when doing so: draining water from houses in area and causing water heaters to collapse, reducing the water supply of another engine, cavitated pumps.

    We have used our clear pvc hard suction on hydrants with no problems in drilling. The flexibility allows it to corkscrew/curve as needed and not collapse. I'd have to check and see what brand it is.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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