Thread: VES Steps

  1. #1
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    Default VES Steps

    Okay...hopefully NDemarse or FFFRED can help me with this one (or anyone else who has experience with this)

    If I were to break down the steps of Vent-Enter-Search into "teaching points," would it go something like this? (Any corrections or additions are welcome!) This is for a residential single-family dwelling--FF is carrying a hook, halligan, light, and radio

    1) Locate a window in a room that is threatened by fire and that we presume is likely to have a savable victim.
    2) Ladder the window--drop the ladder into the window to let the smoke blow while you are preparing to climb.
    3) Climb the ladder, don your facepiece (if you haven't alread), and bust the rest of the window out, including the sash. Monitor heat conditions.
    4) Sound the floor below the window for integrity, being careful not to hammer or spike any potential victims just below.
    5) Crawl in headfirst, leave the hook in the window for orientation.
    6) Locate the door to the room. If it is shut, open it quickly and check around it for victims and to monitor heat. If it is open, check around it for victims, then shut the door and proceed with the search.
    7) Search the room quickly. If a victim is found, get him/her out. If not, open the door to the hallway (I'm not sure if this is correct or not--let me know), and get back to the window.
    8) Climb out and move your ladder to the next window. If you have a partner, switch off to allow for rest time. If not, continue searching until you meet with the inside team.

    Am I close? Any help is apprecaited. Thank you all, and stay safe...

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    You the have the gist of it. I would add if you were teaching a class on it why you shut the door. Helps lift the smoke improving conditions for any victims and also helps visibility for your searching. Also remember if there is a front porch to the house you can ladder the porch and then access 2 seperate bedrooms off that porch.

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    Default Thank you

    Thanks Squad1LT...I appreciate the feedback.

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    Sounds good to me, minus 2 things that I learned differently. They are:
    1. When entering the window, go feet first, not head first.
    2. I may have read this wrong, but I thought that you said to open the door before you leave via the window. I learned that once you get in the room and shut the door that you leave it shut. Yes, you can open it to feel around just outside of the door, but then you shut it and leave it shut.

    Now what I was taught could be wrong, but I would love to hear from some people with more experience doing VES than myself.

    KTF-EGH

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    Leaving the door open can pull smoke and the fire to the unburned room you just searched. If the roof isn't opened and there are still other windows intact, the window you just came in could act as a horizontal vent. There may be no victim but you can spread the fire. If the fire's moving quickly out in the hallway it may cause the room to light up before you get back to the window. If you're not going out into the hallway, leave it shut.
    Definately feet first into the window. Even when you sound a floor you're still not putting all your weight down, just hitting one or two spots. If your foot goes through the floor and you're holding on to the sill you can keep from going through the floor. If you dive in head first (which is what your doing because when you get past the waist there's no stopping because you cannot grab onto the sill with your feet) and the floor gives out you will go down into whatever's below. Possibly the fire.

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    Open the door before leaving, to ventilate for the Brothers inside. But you got the main ideas.

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    Default Ves

    I am not sure here! I would leave the door shut. A flashover could cause you not to be able to get back to the window. Just my thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    Open the door before leaving, to ventilate for the Brothers inside. But you got the main ideas.

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    Unless there is a viable victim, you shouldnt be in the room if you feel a flashover is imminent. MattyJ is talking about searching a room either just before or during the hoseline operations. That is why he said keep the door open after you search.

    Edit: We need to get more threads like this going. Im trying to find some pics to post and see everyones ideas on tactics and such. Anyone wanna help me out?
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 03-21-2006 at 01:12 PM. Reason: to add stuff
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bummer
    I am not sure here! I would leave the door shut. A flashover could cause you not to be able to get back to the window. Just my thoughts.
    If you wouldnt re-open the door before going back to the ladder, then why do we take windows if we arnt going in? My point is.... To ventilate! The purpose for taking windows in this case is two-fold, to enter and search, and to ventilate. Once we search we still need to accomplish ventilation, and closing the door is not going to acomplish this.

    Obviously if opening the door is going to cause the fire to advance to the room your leaving, then dont open it.If not, then before opening the door, make sure you know exactly where the window is, and go directly to it after re-opening the interior door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    If you wouldnt re-open the door before going back to the ladder, then why do we take windows if we arnt going in? My point is.... To ventilate! The purpose for taking windows in this case is two-fold, to enter and search, and to ventilate. Once we search we still need to accomplish ventilation, and closing the door is not going to acomplish this.

    Obviously if opening the door is going to cause the fire to advance to the room your leaving, then dont open it.If not, then before opening the door, make sure you know exactly where the window is, and go directly to it after re-opening the interior door.
    I fully agree. The tactic is called "VES" if you don't re-open the door you only "ES'ed" the room. You also have to understand that "we" don't cut peaked roof private dwellings so this is our "vertical ventilation" for the 1st floor.

    When I teach this, (I just did a class in IL last month) I always teach that if you stumble upon a victim on your way to the bedroom door to pass the victim and continue to the bedroom door. Once you close that door (or make sure it's closed) conditions are going to get MUCH better for you. This will give you a few seconds to collect your thoughts and bring the victim down like a gentleman.

    If you get caught up with the victim right away, the fire extending up the interior stairwell is going to "hurry" your removal process and you might not get the victim out due to the fire racing to your new vent point. In short, passing the victim for 5 seconds might buy you 3-5 minutes of work time that you might not have had.

    Additionally, it is much easier to bring the victim down the stairs than it is down a ladder. Let the Engine know that you are coming down the stairs so they can keep the fire out of the chimney (stairwell) and make your life easier. They might even have to back out to a point near the stairwell to protect you. Remember, life is more important than fire and the priority now switches to getting you down with the victim. As soon as you are down, they can immediately make their way back and start attacking the fire if they had to drop back.

    Obviously, if you give the hallway a peek when you go to re-open the door before you leave and the whole thing is lighting up, then leave the door closed while you make your exit.

    Under MOST circumstances, I would say the door should be opened before you leave though.

    Another point for VES is the stairwell window (noted by it's offset height compared to 1st & 2nd floor windows). As the VESing FF, make sure that you take that window out on the way around to the side/rear. It will channel MOST of that crap coming up the stairs out the window. Essentially, it is "cutting the roof" for the 1st floor.

    Good thread guys, Everyone has good points!
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

    Nate DeMarse
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    Thats a great idea about knocking out the stairway window. I had never thought about the fact that it is basically vertically venting the 1st floor. I learned that when doing VES if you take at least a 6' hook with you, then when you enter the room you can use it to sweep the upper area of the room to locate the door. Also once locating the door you can use the hook to close the door. This is mainly for when the smoke conditions are bad, then just put the hook on the window sill to find your way back. One other quick thing that I didn't think I saw mentioned yet is if you are on a porch roof doing VES. To start with the window furtherist from your ladder so that if fire vents from your window after exitting, that it won't block your way back to the ladder. This may have already been mentioned.I too enjoy threads like this. I always learn something new or am reminded of something I hadn't heard in awhile.
    Last edited by GFDLT1; 03-22-2006 at 07:59 AM.

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    **Bump** While searching the internet like most of us do. I came across this article about VES that I thought was good and that I would share. So check it out. Here is the link. http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/doublet...ytraining.html

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    Default Remember the TIC

    After drilling several times on VES, we found having a FF at the top of the ladder with a TIC could direct the FF searching the room towards victims and possibly point out any hazards. If a victim is found, the FF at the top of the ladder is already in place to assist bringing the victim down. Hang the TIC on the ladder, or come down a few rungs and drop it to the ground or to a FF footing the ladder.

    Yeah...I know...it's $20K for a TIC...so...don't drop it. But, I've seen them drop 20 feet and survive a pretty good bounce. Ours (MSA) has a fairly long strap on it, so we can lower it to the ground fairly easily.
    "Doh!...that's gonna' leave a mark!"

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    Default Good Point

    COFIRECPT...That's a really good point. It is very similar to performing the oriented search from the inside, and I think (if you have a TIC) it would be a good idea to employ this practice. You also bring up a good point about having your assistant to help get the victim out when you find him/her.

    I've also been told that it's a good idea to switch personnel @ each window, that way the first guy doing the search gets a quick break.

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