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    Default vertical venting

    how many departments still vertically vent on fires and what are your departments policies as to types of construction you can and cant vent?

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    Vertical venting is an option like every other style of venting we do. If the fire is in the attic space or has taken major control of the upper floor we will vertically vent.

    We also use PPV when appropriate, negative pressue with a smoke ejector when it is appropriate, or ventilate with a fog stream whe appropriate.

    All of them work when they are the appropriate method.

    FyredUp

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    What he said.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Well, if the building is on fire and the roof is safe to get on, it is supposed to get a hole.

    Our policy dictates that an order be given to not ventilate; not an order to vent.
    RK
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    We send 2 guys to the roof on every job. 1 guy is responsible for all natural openings. Depending on fire location, the venting may stop there. Should we have a well progressed top floor or cockloft fire opening the roof is standard. A good roof man will know if he needs to cut or not.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    Come on guys, every fire? For a room and contents fire you are cutting the roof? We only open the roof in the circumstances I mentioned. We will use horizontal venting 9 times out of 10 for room and contents.

    FyredUp

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    Default venting

    Thanks for the replies so far. In many parts of Fla. very little emphasis is placed on the need to vertical vent and most a most agencies have policies that prohibit any type of roof operations on lightweight construction. I had a recent conversation that the individual states there is no need to vent a sfd and horizontal is just as efficient. although we have 4 and 4 on all pumps and trucks the general feeling is that we lack the manning available. standard box recieves 3 2 and a rescue with 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Come on guys, every fire? For a room and contents fire you are cutting the roof? We only open the roof in the circumstances I mentioned. We will use horizontal venting 9 times out of 10 for room and contents.

    FyredUp
    I didn't say every fire was getting verticle ventilation. I did say that the policy is to prepare to vent the roof unless ordered not to. That order may come from the IC or the officer on the truck. I would say that nearly every significant sfd and 2nd floor fires in multi-story dwellings and apartment fires will recieve vertical ventilation if possible - when its not possible, it normally vents itself-no what I mean?
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Also, a basement fire or an advanced fire in a 2 1/2 story balloon frame house will require vertical ventilation. Well, unless you want to burn the roof off.

    As far as what construction can and can't be vertically vented. We dont have any set policies on that, but it is up to the officer's discretion and that of the IC. We dont have to worry as much with new lightweight construction, but you still can vent those safely off the aerial or out of the bucket if you can spot your truck to do it.

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    Buildings with bulkheads,scuttles skylights etc.(Flat Roof) vent all these openings (for the purpose of venting the interior stairs) Peaked roof private dwelling, we dont vent (dont even go to 90% of the time) the roof unless fire is directly underneath it. As far as cutting, in the FDNY we cut to allow fire to vent...thats pretty much it.

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    Default Article

    Hey, hate to say another magazine. But, FireChief has a great article on PPV/PPA and it's advantages. Of course on large structures it just doesn't help alot. The article is definately worth reading:
    http://firechief.com/mag/firefightin...ent/index.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmhinkle
    Hey, hate to say another magazine. But, FireChief has a great article on PPV/PPA and it's advantages. Of course on large structures it just doesn't help alot. The article is definately worth reading:
    http://firechief.com/mag/firefightin...ent/index.html



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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    Peaked roof private dwelling, we dont vent (dont even go to 90% of the time) the roof unless fire is directly underneath it.
    I would increase this percentage to 98% of the time. I've NEVER seen one cut even with a substantial fire condition in the attic. Miraculously, the fire still goes out!

    If it had to be done, I am sure it would get done off of a TL basket and someone would be up for the occasion.

    Believe it or not, there are still some VERY LARGE METRO departments that still cut EVERY roof regardless of the location or severity of the fire.
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    Nate, nice to see you back posting. What happened, too tired from Rescue school to post at night?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Nate, nice to see you back posting. What happened, too tired from Rescue school to post at night?
    LOL, it's also nice to see that you are consistant and remain a di*k!!
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    we've been told that we will never ever get on a roof to vent except maybe commercial.

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    LOL....nice, nice.

    we've been told that we will never ever get on a roof to vent except maybe commercial.
    Those are the ones you must be the most careful with, as they are usually the ones with lightweight truss roofs.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    LOL, it's also nice to see that you are consistant and remain a di*k!!
    Play nicely boys, or I'm coming back to the city and makin ya'll sit on your asses while everything goes nice and quiet again.
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    LOL...ok getting the thread back on track....

    FyredUp, I think you misunderstood "opening up". For every fire on a flat roofed building, MD, taxpayer, project, someone has to get to the roof. "Opening up" can be as little as opening the bulkhead door at nonfireproof MDs or project buildings, and opening scuttles and skylights on taxpayers.

    At the 6th alarm in the Bronx in Feb, the original fire was reported on the 3rd floor of a 6 story building. The 1st and 2nd due roofmen did their jobs and went up the adjoining wing and opened the bulkhead to vent the smoke from the stairwell. As they were descending the stairs they found an unusually heavy volume of smoke on the top floors. This happened at about the same time the 3rd due engine noticed smoke at the cornice of the buildings roof. If the two roofmen had not opened up and did their job properly, instead of just the top floor of one wing being burned out, the entire top floor of a 150' wide building most likely would have burned.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    LOL...ok getting the thread back on track....

    FyredUp, I think you misunderstood "opening up". For every fire on a flat roofed building, MD, taxpayer, project, someone has to get to the roof. "Opening up" can be as little as opening the bulkhead door at nonfireproof MDs or project buildings, and opening scuttles and skylights on taxpayers.

    At the 6th alarm in the Bronx in Feb, the original fire was reported on the 3rd floor of a 6 story building. The 1st and 2nd due roofmen did their jobs and went up the adjoining wing and opened the bulkhead to vent the smoke from the stairwell. As they were descending the stairs they found an unusually heavy volume of smoke on the top floors. This happened at about the same time the 3rd due engine noticed smoke at the cornice of the buildings roof. If the two roofmen had not opened up and did their job properly, instead of just the top floor of one wing being burned out, the entire top floor of a 150' wide building most likely would have burned.
    On that same note...my former department had a small fire in a void space in a taxpayer/Tavern. All members are force fed the idea of doing as little damage as possible and need to be ordered to do anything and everything. At a taxpayer fire you would think they would have a man assigned to check the roof and open up from up there at any fire of that sort...however they rather leave that up to chance on whether that gets assigned or not.

    Well the men sent to the roof didn't open up any scuttles or make any inspection cuts. They thought they had it knocked down and were trying to overhaul. I believe they had tin ceilings and most guys on this department had little to no experience with them...along with those cheap hooks that aren't good for anything they couldn't really pull the ceiling very well.

    The one thing they didn't know because they didn't open up properly...checking the returns and making some inpection cuts or opening the roof....there were Multiple cocklofts and a signifigant fire in one of them that had gone un-noticed. A few guys barely escaped as the fire started to push down and visiblity went from hazzy to black in seconds and they burnt the damn thing to the ground.

    Lesson: Open up at every fire...it is your job to ensure the fire is out.

    FTM-PTB

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    they had tin ceilings and most guys on this department had little to no experience with them
    Tin ceilings suck. Most of my downtown area has them sandwiched between drop ceilings, sheetrock, and tongue an groove.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Our bread and butter fires are the 2 and 3 story rowhouse. Most of them have a skylight/hatch directly over the stairs. This is usually all that needs to be hit at most fires. Tap 3 times real loud to warn the engine advancing and break the glass. Sometimes a place has had more than one fire and the glass has been replaced by a box made of metal and roofing material. Very seldom do we need to cut the roof on these homes.

    I worked in construction before getting hired and we built a 2 story brick mental health building back in 78'. Over the middle stairwell, the architect installed a hatch that was set to open automaticly for fire at a given temperature. They've never hosted a fire there but the same guy placed big AC units and generators on the roof of this building.

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    Another tactic I tried recently. Usually when we're going to take a window off a portable ladder, We drop the ladder into the window to break the glass, then re-position it and ascend it and finish clearing the window, and enter. Well Ive been cut (and burned once by hot glass) a few times while clearing the glass (falling glass) while on the ladder. This time, to avoid that from happening, after dropping the ladder into the window, I rolled it to the side, then climed it. I was able to clear the rest of the glass, without getting covered in it (also was able to vent the adjoining window better). I was then able to step into the window from the side (I know it is not the best way to get into a window), once inside the window, I reached out, grabbed the ladder, and rolled it under the window I was now in, in case I needed a quick exit. Took a bit longer to get in the window, but sure beat getting cut again. Always remember to remove the entire window (sash and all) if you enter yhe window. It is much easier to remove the sash if you unlock the window and "open" the window slightley, it becomes MUCH weaker.
    If theres an A/C in the window, push it in, so it doesnt fall down to the 2nd due OVM.

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    Default Enlightenment please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Tin ceilings suck. Most of my downtown area has them sandwiched between drop ceilings, sheetrock, and tongue an groove.
    I've never seen a tin ceiling. Aren't they basically vanity squares attached to the ceiling? What makes them so much more difficult than, say tounge and groove?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840
    I've never seen a tin ceiling. Aren't they basically vanity squares attached to the ceiling? What makes them so much more difficult than, say tounge and groove?
    There are many types...some are individual squares as you mentioned...others are complete sheets of decrotive pressed tin. They come in many different sizes 12", 24" squares, 2'x4' sheets. Or even larger.

    The old ones are firmly secured and depending on design interlocked with the adjoining pannels. One needs a sharp tin hook to puncture it and then begin slowly and methodically ripping or cutting a line in the pannel...much like using a can opener on a tin can.

    Often the tin is secured to tounge and groove planks above that run diagonally from the joists. Or heavy lath and plaster with wire mesh.

    Every truckie is beat dead tired and they usually can't lift their arms after a good job.

    Also making the situation worse...they are usually 8',10' or even 12+ feet high ceilings and require long hooks just to reach.

    FTM-PTB

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