1. #1
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    Question Ladder & Hoseline placement

    What is the procedure in your department when it comes to advancing a hoseline into a structure from a ground ladder via a window? 1) Where do you place the ladder? Tip just above or at the sill, or do you place the ladder alongside the window with the tip even with the top of the window? 2) Once the line has been advanced into the building, do you strap the line to the ladder or do you push the hose clear of the ladder, let it hang down the face of the building, and secure it to the window sill with a hose strap?

    Thanks for your input.

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    In 15 plus years, I have never had to do this.
    RK
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    If the reason you are stretching a hoseline through a window from the outside is because the front door and interior stairs are alreadly clogged with hoselines, then the easiest way is to have someone enter the room and drop utility rope and hoist the line up.
    But if you are entering like this (please explain your reasons why), I would say keep the ladder at sill level, since you are planning on entering the window.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    If the reason you are stretching a hoseline through a window from the outside is because the front door and interior stairs are alreadly clogged with hoselines, then the easiest way is to have someone enter the room and drop utility rope and hoist the line up.
    But if you are entering like this (please explain your reasons why), I would say keep the ladder at sill level, since you are planning on entering the window.

    The only reason I could imagine this senario occuring is where the first floor and/or staircase has collapsed or is unsafe.

    As for the unusual circumstance of advancing a handline up a ladder our procuedures dictate that the hose be removed from the ladder and secured to the building thus freeing up the ladder for other uses if necessary.

    FTM-PTB

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    I've been in the fire service since 1979 and in those 26 years I have never had to advance an attack line up a ground ladder and into a structure fire. The only reason you'd do that would be if the 1st floor of the structure is completely untenable, i.e. fully involved and cannot be entered. In that case, the fire would already be extending up to the 2nd floor, if it's not there already...surround it and drown it at that point. I sure as hell would not want to be operating a hose line above a fully involved 1st floor fire. You're talking about a HIGH probability of structural collapse at that point. The nozzle team is going to end up taking a one-way trip through the floor and into the inferno below.

    Our job is to put out fires yes, but not to go on kamakazie suicide missions.

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    There are a few reasons to stretch hoseline from the outside of a building, none of which involve "kamikaze actions". Fred gave you one example, another example is if there are more than 2 lines already in the front door. Our books require the 3rd line to be stretched either up the fire escape or by a utility rope stretch to the floor below the fire.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    There are a few reasons to stretch hoseline from the outside of a building, none of which involve "kamikaze actions". Fred gave you one example, another example is if there are more than 2 lines already in the front door. Our books require the 3rd line to be stretched either up the fire escape or by a utility rope stretch to the floor below the fire.
    I agree with FFFred & nyckftbl. There are times when you need to or should stretch up the outside of a building.

    In response ONLY to your question, I would put the ladder under the sill, make the window a door (remove the sash), make entry and remove the hose from the ladder.

    There are however some VERY important points to consider when doing this. This under MOST circumstances should NOT be your first line. Protect the interior stairs and make sure there are lines operating on the fire below you if you are above it.
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    Perhaps I misread the question, but I thought he was suggesting that the initial attack line be hoisted up a ground ladder and into the structure. If that's what he meant, then my answer stands. The only reason that would be done would be if the 1st floor is completely untenable, fully involved in fire, and cannot be entered from either the front, sides or back of the structure. In that case, you would have to be completely suicidal to advance an attack line from the floor above. The house is history at that point, will have to be completely rebuilt, and you're not going to save anything. Plus you're risking getting yourself killed in a structural collapse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdurkin44
    I've been in the fire service since 1979 and in those 26 years I have never had to advance an attack line up a ground ladder and into a structure fire. The only reason you'd do that would be if the 1st floor of the structure is completely untenable, i.e. fully involved and cannot be entered. In that case, the fire would already be extending up to the 2nd floor, if it's not there already...surround it and drown it at that point. I sure as hell would not want to be operating a hose line above a fully involved 1st floor fire. You're talking about a HIGH probability of structural collapse at that point. The nozzle team is going to end up taking a one-way trip through the floor and into the inferno below.

    Our job is to put out fires yes, but not to go on kamakazie suicide missions.
    That is most certainly NOT the only reason to do it. About a year ago I did it and the reason was that an exposure building had gotten a fire going in the second floor dormer apt. and attic next door. The only access to this area was an exterior stair in the gangway that we were unable to use because of the same exposure problem that had started the fire in our building. The only way to get to the fire was up a ladder and acroos the roof. Not too tough or suicidal. We left the hose on the ladder to make it easier to advance it as they were pushing into the apt. All ladders into windows here go just below the sill.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Perhaps I misread the question, but I thought he was suggesting that the initial attack line be hoisted up a ground ladder and into the structure. If that's what he meant, then my answer stands. The only reason that would be done would be if the 1st floor is completely untenable, fully involved in fire, and cannot be entered from either the front, sides or back of the structure. In that case, you would have to be completely suicidal to advance an attack line from the floor above. The house is history at that point, will have to be completely rebuilt, and you're not going to save anything. Plus you're risking getting yourself killed in a structural collapse.
    What if it is a house under renovation and there is no interior stair,(or maybe they are just replacing treads, in which case the structural stability of the building isnt in doubt) but only a small fire on the second floor? Wait till the fire gets big enough for exterior ops?

    Like Nate said, these two scenarios are really the only reason that lines should be stretched from the outside. (this scenario and the one about too many hoselines in the front door) Otherwise, the hoseline has to go to the front door and to the interior stairs, especially in a PD where the stairs are usually open and can become untenable incredibly fast.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 03-21-2006 at 11:11 PM.
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    I wrote my answer on the asumption that the question was regarding an initial attack line at a structure fire being advanced up a ground ladder. Sure, there are one or two remote exceptions for everything, but as a sweeping generality, how many of you have initiated an interior attack from a ground ladder? In 26 years, soon to be 27 years as a firefighter, I never have.

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    I would not secure a line to a ground ladder as that is too unstable for it to help any. With movement of the line, there is too much chance the ladder will be moved and that may be my only way back out. I would secure the line to the building with a strap/rope/webbing instead.

    Have we ever done it? In practice, yes. At a fire, no.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Ladder to the sill and we dont tend to tie off. Im sure its written that a rope hose tool should lock it to the sill but I have seen it done. I have on numerous jobs seen an engine take a line thru a window using one of my ladders. We got a lot of old dwellings chopped up into so many apartments you dont know how to get to the 3rd floor. Sometimes its just easier for the company to stretch to the fire on the 2nd floor and another company to stretch to the 3rd floor thru the window. Different companies have different ideas of what is and what isnt a suicide mission.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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