1. #1
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    Default Roof flap vs. Total roof removal

    Just wondering what you guys prefer flapping a roof or total removal. I know it all depends on the situation but I was curious.

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    Thumbs up

    Removal unless otherwise dictated. Same number of cuts to flap or remove usually.
    Developer and Sr. Presenter, Team Xtreme
    BIG RIG RESCUE

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    Total roof removal:
    Make the opening to fit the pt. not the pt. to fit the opening.
    With a total removal of the roof this gives the rescuer more options when removing the pt.
    If you flap the roof line behind the front seat of a sedan you are limited to how you will remove your pt.
    If you remove the whole roof you have more options.
    Taking the whole roof also makes for less points of sharpe contact as you will be able to cover the A-B-C posts that were cut low to be coverd with a heavy blanket.
    Also you can remove the whole roof to a trash pile which is located away from your vehicle.
    With just a flap you still have a large piece of metal resting on top of the vehicle.

    FYI
    If you plan on taking the whole roof try using large zip ties to be placed on the A-B-C post above the cuts. This keeps all the window casings attached to the roof when your remove it. Thus keeping all your loose metal pieces together with out the need for someone to place them in the trash pile.
    Most of these large zip ties can be found at your local hardware store.

    Stay safe when working around the roadways.

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    These are both valid options and one should never be discounted or discontinued due to the other. (Does that make sense?)

    Both have pros and cons. Every accident is different...
    Luke

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    Funny,they all seem to load the same.One flatbed,no waiting.You've been out in the sun too long.OPTIONS on extrications? Balderdash! Hehe T.C.

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    You've been out in the sun too long.OPTIONS on extrications? Balderdash! Hehe T.C.
    That's right grandmaster101- I forgot, if it can't be done with a tow truck then it's just not worth getting out of bed for is it!!!

    How are you O Wise One?
    Luke

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    Take the roof! Flaps are nice for cars on their side though.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    Guys thanks you all have gave some great insight in to the question I asked. Have one more question/inquiry to pick your brains. Had a rollover MVC the other night with vehicle on top and three occupants trapped inside. My Dept. rolled as mutal aid. The first arriving rescue crew stabilized the car and popped the doors and instead of cutting the C post they removed the back glass and extricated the pt. out the doors and back glass. IMO I would have cut the C post and used air bags to lift and then shore the car with cribbing. What is your all's takeon this scenerio?

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    Better ways to remove the roof on an inverted auto. I suggest using a buttress stabilization system that will allow raising the auto sufficiently. Obviously cribbing as the lift progresses is needed.

    Although it can be done, balancing something on a cushion of air is likely tricky.
    Developer and Sr. Presenter, Team Xtreme
    BIG RIG RESCUE

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRig
    Better ways to remove the roof on an inverted auto. I suggest using a buttress stabilization system that will allow raising the auto sufficiently. Obviously cribbing as the lift progresses is needed.

    Although it can be done, balancing something on a cushion of air is likely tricky.
    I second BigRig's plan of attack. buttress stabalizing, take the rear window, "C" and "B" posts and do sort of a reverse flap.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    On the roof flap, I believe they both have their place and we need to teach both, but for me, If at all possible I take the whole roof, they both take about the same time to accomplish, and as was already said the whole roof gives you more options but if you flap it and your plan A dose not work then it while cost you the same amount of time to cut the rest of the roof. and time some times is a problem ( remember the Golden Hour )
    http://www.midsouthrescue.org
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    I had another thought about roof flaps over roof removal. I could see a reason to flap a roof based upon manpower. With a roof removal, you really should have five people to perform it properly. One on each corner and the person operating the cutting tool. With a roof flap, you could get by with three or even two people to safely perform the task. If you are short handed, that would be a reason to resort to a roof flap and for that reason it is worth teaching.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    The manpower is a good point. It does require several to assist in supporting the roof to do a full removal. I do see that it does really depend on the situation and the equipment at hand. Some vehicles lend themselves to flaps more readily than total removal. Full size pick up trucks come to mind right away.

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    we just roof it!

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    Good point about manpower MetalMedic.

    With many departments struggling at times to fill trucks, the flap makes for an easy option...
    Luke

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    Default Teach it !!

    I can think of a few good reasons to teach it, one that comes to mind, is an old cadillac I used a while back in a class, that for the same reason I menchened in the other post, " Time " it was better to flap then to remove, It was a two door, B post, about 10 " wide, C post about 16-18' wide, to flap the roof, cut two A post, and two relieve cuts and your in. As you can see by my first post I am for removing the roof but every car is different and we need to give our people as many options as possible.
    http://www.midsouthrescue.org
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    how many of you guys are using a sawzall with the rescue blades for cutting roof posts?

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    We do, sometimes.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I think it is one of the best tools we have today.

    If we could just find some one who would make a battery that would last a little longer. I have thought about putting an extension cord real on the truck and running an electric one off of a generator.
    http://www.midsouthrescue.org
    Is it time to change our training yet ?

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    Milwaukee just came out with a new 28 volt lithium battery, my dept is going to purchase a few of them, and I'll let everyone know how they work out.

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    Never used a Sawzall in anger except at a fatality....
    Last edited by lutan1; 04-06-2006 at 06:22 PM.
    Luke

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    You should try it sometime,with the new demo blades they are quite effective.On a side note,did you "weather"the recent bad spell in OZ OK?Here's hoping you are on the high ground. T.C.

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    Thumbs up roof flap vs. total removal

    What I've learned from extracation comp is that with roof rack it's difficult to do a roof flap unless you remove the racks itself, which is an extra operation. In the feild I've found that it all depends on the scene itself. It's all about the safest and easiest way to remove the patient/

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    total removal is the best for most incidents since it gives you more access.
    Jonesy
    Fail to plan. Plan to fail.

    FL EMT-B
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    A man sent me a ppt presentation last week and in it he brought out a point that all of us know in the back of our mind but we don't take the time to bring it out in a class, and this is one place it is needed.
    Auto makers are building car smaller on the outside but roomier on the inside, to do that they are moving the front occupants back further, which puts them behind the B post. by popping a door or flapping a roof we still have to compromise the spine alignment to get them out, with a roof removal we can maintain alignment by lifting them out to the rear of the vehicle.
    http://www.midsouthrescue.org
    Is it time to change our training yet ?

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