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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by spackmann
    Also, why were you looking at Stedair 3000 instead of Crosstech moisture barrier?
    Cost vs. benefit. It is much more expensive (up to $200/set) and doesn't provide enough added protection to be cost efficent. So I guess there is a little monetary factor.

    We've not seen the wear issues from any other places except contact with the ground. The crotch issues we had were all vapor barrier/thermal liner tears, no shell material issues. Was Bristol the maker of the Basofil gear you have/had? Another issue with them and Viking is the sewing in of the liners top and bottom: hard to check for ripped crotches until they come all the way through. You also can't add anything to the pants (Like harness loops) after you recieve them because of this. I wonder if this isn't part of the problem when the liner doesn't move independantly from the shell?

    Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind. Given your experinces with the gear I'd certainly be asking alot of questions and thinking about a change too.


  2. #22
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    Default good point...

    You bring up a good point about the construction of gear - that's one of the reasons why we are moving away from Bristol.

    The current sets of bristol we have do not allow for the separation of outer shell from the moisture/thermal layers - they are connected at the wrists.

    Plus, its all single stitching - whereas globe, janesville and morning pride have double stitching standard.

    I must say however that I'm not entirely sure that the abrasion issues we've seen with basofil could be directly related to bristol's construction of the gear - but rather more closely related to the nature of basofil.

    Another thing, that's another reason why we are abandoning bristol all together - they refused to even replace this set of gear - granted gear DOES indeed wear out, but to simply refuse to warranty this set of gear that wore out from WALKING was just the last nail in the coffin (we got the refusal in writing from the bristol corporation).

  3. #23
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Spackmann,See if you can get a "beta" set in Millenia.Our current issue is G-7 Globe Millenia,Caldura SL,Crosstech with NY triple trim.A shade under Basojunk in TPP but lightyears ahead in durability.We put one of our active guys in Basofil to test it.I'm not impressed.Abrasion resistance is low,lower than any other material we tried.What do you think the TPP is on abraded gear? And I'm not saying Millenias for everyone.I AM suggesting you try it to see if it meets you needs.It has fit ours nicely,the crew likes the gear(compared to our old stuff)and it wears like iron.Seems to hold up well under high heat conditions too.Until we find a better system(price/service life)this will be our standard issue. Good luck! Oh,for what it's worth our Millenia is Southern mills. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 03-29-2006 at 09:55 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Spackmann,See if you can get a "beta" set in Millenia.Our current issue is G-7 Globe Millenia,Caldura SL,Crosstech with NY triple trim.A shade under Basojunk in TPP but lightyears ahead in durability.We put one of our active guys in Basofil to test it.I'm not impressed.Abrasion resistance is low,lower than any other material we tried.What do you think the TPP is on abraded gear? And I'm not saying Millenias for everyone.I AM suggesting you try it to see if it meets you needs.It has fit ours nicely,the crew likes the gear(compared to our old stuff)and it wears like iron.Seems to hold up well under high heat conditions too.Until we find a better system(price/service life)this will be our standard issue. Good luck! Oh,for what it's worth our Millenia is Southern mills. T.C.
    Thanks Rescue101,

    I looked at Millenia, but apparently its still not as good as Pbi Matrix according to vendors - have you looked at this?

    - Spack

  5. #25
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    I won't argue the abrasion resistance of Millenia. It is by far the toughest stuff out there. Also I can't argue that Basofil is not somewhat less durable than many others. Like I said in the balance of things we'd rather have the higher TPP/THL. But for durabilty, Millenia is tops. BTW: The Globe guy says wash it about 5 times upon delivery to take the stiffness out and its as comfortable as any other.

    Spack: I agree the basofil Bristol issue probably is not a Bristol only issue, but that is one of the factors we've seen with wearability.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    BTW: The Globe guy says wash it about 5 times upon delivery to take the stiffness out and its as comfortable as any other.
    That's interesting that the Globe guy suggested to you that you can simply wash milenia to get it more comfortable.

    Our rep suggested that pbi matrix was the "best of both worlds" - durability (abrasion resistance) and comfort/mobility (non-restrictive).

    Are you suggesting that millenia is the best? (do you have additional documentation?)

    - Spack

  7. #27
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Spack,go back and take another peek at my post.And do YOURSELF a favor.Since I don't know the balance you're trying to achieve,try this:Get the Globe "sample"pack of material from your Globe dealer,the stuff that's been exposed to flame(char) and abrasion.Then draw your own conclusions.We do more heavy rescue than we do fires.Therefore abrasion/cut resistance is high on our list of priorities for gear.As I said we've had some "cookers"where the crews came out smokin'.And the gear has held up well.Again,my suggestion would be to get a trial set,hang it on the busiest person in your outfit and see how it works.We're VERY happy with what we bought but it may not work as well for you.On a side note,get the samples and check out Millenia AFTER the flame test.If that doesn't give you an idea of the protection of this fabric I don't know what will.But please,get the sample pack and form your own conclusion.All the outers you're considering are in it.Have fun! T.C.

  8. #28
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    We have 31 sets of MILLENIA globe g xtreme on order. Was on the fence with PBI and MILLENIA. What sold me on MILLENIA was the following, Only outer shell with 5 year warranty from southern mills was a big selling point. What sealed the deal was talking with Norfolk Virgina Fire Department who has used the MILLENIA since 2001 or 2002. They are very happy with it, Even after this time frame you can cut a piece of the outer shell and you can not rip it. Very durable stuff. I spent an hour on the phone with a Captain and a Deputy Chief and they were very happy with it.

    I got talked down by other brands, but I was told after was all done that they buy bulk PBI therefore they are more competitive with PBI so try to steer toward PBI. The V Force came in 3 grand higher than our G Extreme did.

    Ask me again in 2 years and I will let you know how it does then.

    Good luck with what ever you decide.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spackmann
    Our rep suggested that pbi matrix was the "best of both worlds" - durability (abrasion resistance) and comfort/mobility (non-restrictive).

    Are you suggesting that millenia is the best? (do you have additional documentation?)

    - Spack
    "Best of Both Worlds"? Does actual protection fall somewhere in the salesmans best of both worlds scenario? Durable and mobility are nice but I still look at Thremal performance as the most important single feature of a set of gear.

    I'm not suggesting Millenia is the best at all. Only passing on what I've seen and heard about Abraision resistance and durability from wear. Again, thermal performance is to big a factor for me to even consider Millenia.

    I think 101's idea to test some gear is great if you've got the time and/or alot of runs. I know Securitex offers a trial program where you buy a set at a reduced cost and trial it for a while then decide. Each set there after is full price.

    As for gear holding up under fire conditions. The honest truth is very few of us will ever put our gear to a true test of its ability, thankfully. We cannot withstand nearly the heat that the outershell can withstand. All that 700-1000 degree BS is for the wannabe's. Normally, down at the floor its nowhere near this hot, thank god. Hell look at all the threads about Chicago and Boston not even wearing bunker pants? You don;t think they go into fire as hot as most of us? Another case of why training should not be limited to burn buildings, they instill flase lessons about heat in structural fires. The whole TPP is in case of flashover or other rapid fire event that exposes your gear (and you) to a huge dose of high heat.

  10. #30
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Interesting analogy.But is heat protection the lone factor when purchasing gear? If you're a busy company doing a bunch of working fires,perhaps it is.I submit for many companies it MAY not be the controlling factor. Basofil may have a TPP higher than our current ensemble.But if the replacement cycle is three times higher for an outfit that does 5 heavy rescues for every fire is it the best protection for our crews? I submit that it is NOT. So it comes down to the AHJ what the "best"protection for the jurisdiction is.Fortunately,there are many choices.Choose wisely. T.C.

  11. #31
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    I did not mean that TPP is the only factor, but is the most important single one. If I had to assign one factor as the most important that's what it's be. After that abrasion resistance,life expectance, comfort, mobility would all follow.(maybe not in that order)

  12. #32
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    rescue101 and rfdacm interesting debate about what is more appropriate for the given district.

    As I"ve explained before, our district is working to implement a four year replacement strategy at around $2500 per set of gear (everything boots, helmet, jacket, etc.) and since we have 200 firefighters, that's going to cost $100,000 a year - which with our budget is very significant.

    Basofil, as we have seen, and as both of you have argued, probably does not fit into this strategy.

    Thanks for the insight!

    - Spack

  13. #33
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Spack,My advice to you remains the same.Look at ALL the materials and their strengths/weaknesses.Pick the three vendors you want to deal with.Look at your runs for the last 5 yrs and try to project type/frequency for the next 5.Then pick an OUTER that best matches your day to day ops.Our PRIORITY is the TOTAL protection of our personnel and after much study of the above factors was how we settled on the ensemble we bought.And you may want to check those TPP ratings,according to what I remember when we bought ours I don't think the Millenia/Caldura SL/Crosstech was many points off the Basofil in the same configuration(using Globe figures).The superior wear/protection factor was what tipped us toward Millenia.After seeing the results of our Beta test on BASOFIL,I wouldn't have it in the house.High TPP? Yes,in it's virgin state.With the wear thru? You might as well be in Nomex. Remember if it's worn thin or breached it HAS NO TPP(at least not in superiority). We can offer insights but only YOUR personnel know what hazards your gear face day to day.Learn as much as you can,try to "beta"the systems that interest you(even if you have to purchase the set)and beat the s**t out of it.If it works,buy more.We tested 4 systems before we settled on the current one and we bought 60 sets.That was over two years ago and I'm happy with both the performance of the gear and the value of the investment.RFD and I have differing views but we're both from differing jurisdictions(although the same geographical area).The end result for you?A good natured "sparring" by us and some useful input for you.Good luck and please post your final decision. T.C.

  14. #34
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    Rescue101,

    Great advice, and actually that is what our testing game plan has been. I have two additional followup meetings this month with different vendors, but our testing is as follows:

    1) We have four fire companies, and we are testing three vendors - so we picked one of the most active person from each company to be the test subjects and ordered 12 sets of gear (one set of each vendor for each person)

    2) we are testing Janesville V-Force, Morning Pride and Globe GxTreme - they are all roughly in the same ball park for price (which was really surprising).

    3) We are currently testing both mills of Pbi Matrix (Southern Mills and Safety Components) but as I pointed out, we have had some issues with Safety Components - so I do not know what mill we will be going with, but we are leaning towards Southern Mills.

    4) we are now investigating the rescue harness option (we already have the firefighter drag harness as part of our test gear - it will be a NFPA requirment next year)

    5) as part of the followup meetings with the vendors - I will be discussing with the manufacturer reps the specifics to each outer shell and trying to downselect AGAIN which outer shell is best for our department. Initially, the vendors pushed Pbi Matrix on us as the "best of both worlds" - but maybe that is inappropriate for my district.

    I'll post back what our decision is - this is also some good documentation to help make this decision:

    http://www.southernmills.com/common/...COMPARISON.pdf
    http://www.globefiresuits.com/globe/...hl-compare.asp

    - Spack

  15. #35
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    I have a curious question...
    Is there any reason why two different out shell fabrics couldn't be spec'ed? In a department that size, some people would really never see an interior, some would do MVA extrication weekly, etc.

    The "Martha Stewart" in me would want everybody to dress the same, but would it be worth using a couple of different configurations of turnouts to fit the function of the employee. Any volume discounts lost would likely be offset by some difference in cost of the configuration.

    Just thinking out loud...
    earl

  16. #36
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    Spack,I know I'm sounding like an endless tape but I'd try at least one set of Millenia.PBI Matrix is real nice stuff but again;look hard and long at the numbers and total cost of operation.It's been awhile since I crunched the Tpp and all the rest of the rating factors but I remember the warranty and the wear factors easily offset the few points difference in TPP.Also MAKE SURE you get those sample sets abrasion/flame from your Globe dealer.Important stuff that you need to SEE. And good luck in whatever you choose,I would say that your organization has a good sound method of evaluating equipment,one that will pay off over time. T.C.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Spack,I know I'm sounding like an endless tape but I'd try at least one set of Millenia.PBI Matrix is real nice stuff but again;look hard and long at the numbers and total cost of operation.It's been awhile since I crunched the Tpp and all the rest of the rating factors but I remember the warranty and the wear factors easily offset the few points difference in TPP.Also MAKE SURE you get those sample sets abrasion/flame from your Globe dealer.Important stuff that you need to SEE. And good luck in whatever you choose,I would say that your organization has a good sound method of evaluating equipment,one that will pay off over time. T.C.
    Rescue101, I agree - which is why i'm going to be investigating it - from what I remember however, it was very restrictive in terms of movement - which is why the vendors pushed Pbi Matrix on us.

    - Spack

  18. #38
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Spack,From our experience,the first sets were a bit "starchy"(stiff)The last of the run were NOT.In either event,a couple trainings or one "worker" and they get pretty limber.We experienced no working restrictions.Remember the vendor isn't going to wear the gear,YOU are.Experiment and enjoy. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-02-2006 at 07:33 PM.

  19. #39
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    Spack:
    Dounds like you've got decent plan. I won't try to convince you otherwise on the Basofil. But for clarification of numbers. Basofil is on average 10 TPP higher than PBI Matrix for the same set and 11 TPP higher than Millenia. I agree with Rescue101 ont he Millenia, compares very close to PBI Matrix but tougher. Our Globe guy says wash it a few times and the stiffness goes away. As for the Basofil, as I said before, we have yet to see wear issues other than knees and cuffs that we will reinforce on the next sets, and being worn by our guys running a bit of everthing, I've yet to see anyone actually tear it on a wreck. That's our experience, you've got to trust your own.

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