1. #51
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    Whats your point?
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    They were both killed on bicycles and had the same chance of operating at a structure fire as the Kangas boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, you read it right. They should not receive the Federal PSOB and should not be on the National Fallen Fire Fighters memorial.

    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    Ok bones... so for a probie who has recieved his ff1 and ff2 but dies on a scene should not recieve anything. Just because they are on probation doesnt mean they havent gone through training. On my dept. you are on probation for 1 year no matter if your a career firefighter transfering to our department or a guy who just wants to be a fireman. There is a big difference in this example but they are both on PROBATION and are treated the same.
    My views, are my views and do not give the views of any orginization i belong to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, you read it right. They should not receive the Federal PSOB and should not be on the National Fallen Fire Fighters memorial.

    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    OK, this's getting asenine. That's like saying if a state has a "Fallen Police Officers" memorial, that Deputy Sheriffs or Highway Patrol Officers shouldn't be included, because their title isn't "Police Officer".

    The semantics backing your argument are specious at best, and that's being kind. We all know there's a big difference between a "Probationary Firefighter" and a "Junior Firefighter" or "Fire Explorer".
    Besides, by your line of "logic", such as you're calling it, a Fire Apparatus Engineer, Fire Captain, or Battalion Chief doesn't qualify either, because their job title isn't exactly "Firefighter".

    The state of the Fire Service in this country must be great, because the biggest issue we seem to have on our plate is "Who qualifies to bear the title 'Firefighter'?"
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    They were both killed on bicycles and had the same chance of operating at a structure fire as the Kangas boy.
    I've said that before in other posts. I totally agree with yah
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    OK, this's getting asenine. That's like saying if a state has a "Fallen Police Officers" memorial, that Deputy Sheriffs or Highway Patrol Officers shouldn't be included, because their title isn't "Police Officer".

    The semantics backing your argument are specious at best, and that's being kind. We all know there's a big difference between a "Probationary Firefighter" and a "Junior Firefighter" or "Fire Explorer".
    Besides, by your line of "logic", such as you're calling it, a Fire Apparatus Engineer, Fire Captain, or Battalion Chief doesn't qualify either, because their job title isn't exactly "Firefighter".

    The state of the Fire Service in this country must be great, because the biggest issue we seem to have on our plate is "Who qualifies to bear the title 'Firefighter'?"
    I could give a rats @$$ about semantics. It's really simple. If you are trained and able to fight fires, you are a firefighter. In my area, a probationary firefighter is not. It has nothing to do with titles and/or names. It has all to do with what you CAN do and what you are ABLE to do.

    A firefighter can be assigned to direct traffic at a call. He's still a firefighter, just not directly doing it at that call. He's different than the guy that has only ever done that, but they are both doing the same task at that call.

    I would hope, that your apparatus driver/operators are firefighters first before they are allowed to drive/pump/etc. They are, a firefighter doing another task/job, regardless of what you name them. The guy that drove tractor trailers for a living and decided to join the FD to drive trucks and has never done anything else, is not a firefighter.


    Really, it's that simple. You are/were trained and able to do it, or your not.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I could give a rats @$$ about semantics. It's really simple. If you are trained and able to fight fires, you are a firefighter. In my area, a probationary firefighter is not. It has nothing to do with titles and/or names. It has all to do with what you CAN do and what you are ABLE to do.
    That includes when a member has been through Firefighter I, graduated, and is placed on his 6 month, or 1 year probation?

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    That would include that per his definition, yes. at that point, the person has the basic skills in place, to be able to work at a structure fire, and act as a full firefighter.

    However, like Bones has said, in some places probation is different. You can be a probie in my fire dpet, with absolutely no training. at this point, you aren't a firefighter. Once you complete PA Essentials of firefighting, First Responder, and HazMat training, we then consider you a firefighter, and let you operate as such, with an experienced member of the department, on calls. Is there more training for you to do, of course. There is always training. For us though, you have to have PA Essentials, to operate on the fire ground, and until you do, i wouldn't consider you a line of duty death if something happened to you on say the rehab truck, or while you were being a gofer. Not sure about what my department would think, but that's just me.

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    It has nothing to do with titles and/or names.
    And this would be an exact 180 from your earlier statement (with which I did and still do take issue with):
    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    OK, so to clarify that someone is in fact "trained and able to be" a firefighter, yet is within their probationary period in their department, we'll call them a "Firefighter on Probation" (or "FOP" for short). Oh but wait, then everybody will want to argue why we hired someone who's currently on probation. *LOL*

    There's no limit to how stupid we can get about titles and such...but please, let's do our best to find the limit!
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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    My FD has a pretty simple way of who qualifies as a firefighter. If you could not fight fire you would no longer be employed. Nuff said.
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 05-15-2007 at 02:18 PM.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

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    Quote Originally Posted by st42stephenAFT View Post
    That includes when a member has been through Firefighter I, graduated, and is placed on his 6 month, or 1 year probation?
    Graduated FF1. They are a fire fighter. They are on a probationary period where we (not the instructors) evalutate their skills and update them on our tactics. But they are a fire fighter.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    why cant you just accept that juniors are firemen to .......... so what if all the juniors quit ... are you going to get on top of the truck at 3 am to get a broom for a MVA ... and it seems to me that your saying a regular brand new fireman over 18 that does not have their FF1 can get LODD benifits but a junior with a few years experince is not good enough
    These opinions are mine and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.

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    why cant you just accept that juniors are firemen to .......... so what if all the juniors quit ... are you going to get on top of the truck at 3 am to get a broom for a MVA ... and it seems to me that your saying a regular brand new fireman over 18 that does not have their FF1 can get LODD benifits but a junior with a few years experince is not good enough

    This makes no sense at all.

    Juniors are not firefighters.

    Up until just a couple of years ago, none of our firefighters ever took the firefighter certification tests, yet were far better trained than any level I, II, III certification requires.

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    Calling a pile of s**t a rose doesn't make it a rose

    Calling a kid a jr firefighter doesn't make him a firefighter.

    The feds run the program and they get to make the rules and definitions since a lot of departments can't get it right.

    KIDS ARE NOT FIREFIGHTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bvfa23 View Post
    why cant you just accept that juniors are firemen to .......... so what if all the juniors quit ... are you going to get on top of the truck at 3 am to get a broom for a MVA ... and it seems to me that your saying a regular brand new fireman over 18 that does not have their FF1 can get LODD benifits but a junior with a few years experince is not good enough
    listen kid. I happen to think that juniors should be considered firemen under certain circumstances. that is my personal belief, and primarily relates to LODD, at least under certain circumstances.

    however, don't think for an instant that a junior firefigher is the same as a certified, non-probationary adult firefighter. VERY big difference.

    also, to answer your question, at 3am at the MVA, yes, an interior firefighter will be climbing on top of a truck to get the broom. juniors are nice to have, but if they all quit tomorrow, oh well, all it means is the little grunt work would have to be done by the probie or a senior firefighter. but it will still get done.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bvfa23 View Post
    why cant you just accept that juniors are firemen to
    Because they aren't?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Seriously don't any of you have anything better to do than argue about this stupid topic thats been discussed 15125136517613769713209671309670 times before, what does it matter to anyone else across the country anyway if some one wants to call jr. firefighters firefighters then let them, how will it effect you???

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    Quote Originally Posted by YBLOC06 View Post
    Seriously don't any of you have anything better to do than argue about this stupid topic .... how will it effect you???
    Yes, it is a stupid topic. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of so-called "junior firefighters" out there who don't seem to be able to grasp that they aren't firefighters.

    How does that effect us? Many of us are firefighters -- we've earned the title and we tend to be a bit protective of it.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YBLOC06 View Post
    Seriously don't any of you have anything better to do than argue about this stupid topic thats been discussed 15125136517613769713209671309670 times before, what does it matter to anyone else across the country anyway if some one wants to call jr. firefighters firefighters then let them, how will it effect you???
    Because on my Federal Form IRS 1040 it says firefighter. I don't want every tax dollar that I earn going to a PSOB program for 14 y/o. I'll pay my taxes, I make a good living as firefighter, but I don't want my tax dollars WASTED on some BS PSOB program anymore than I want them wasted ag subsidies. Pretty soon we are going to be giving money to every deceased person because they wanted to be firefighters when they were 4. We fought hard to have PSOB programs for families of FIREFIGHTERS killed in the line of duty. Every time some ridiculous claim like the one filed by the Kangas family is promulgated through the court system, the entire program is jeopardized.

    The PSOB program is for firefighters and their families, not whackers - not wannabes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bvfa23 View Post
    why cant you just accept that juniors are firemen to .......... so what if all the juniors quit ...
    Considering we don't have Juniors/Explorers in our department...I guess the same thing we've always been doing, eh?

    are you going to get on top of the truck at 3 am to get a broom for a MVA ...
    Nope, see, A) our broom is in the rear compartment, not topside, and B) Brooms are the tow-truck's job, not mine. Patient's extricated, packaged, and TOT to ambulance, my azz is outta there.

    and it seems to me that your saying a regular brand new fireman over 18 that does not have their FF1 can get LODD benifits but a junior with a few years experince is not good enough
    You gain wisdom, Young Glasshoppah. That is almost exactly what we're saying. Thanks for catching up to the herd.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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    Default How was Chris Kangas killed while "responding" to his station for a call?

    ["We were just sitting there getting ready to have a barbecue and we heard the sirens," said Messner, who has only been on the Brookhaven police force for one of his 12 years in the field. "He was asking me, 'Is that us, is that us?' Then he got on his bike. I told him to be careful, and that I'd put the hamburgers on."]

    Funny, wouldn't his pager have alerted him to a call for his dept.? Wait, Chris didn't have a pager. Strange that a firefighter on-call doesn't have a pager.


    [Kangas proceeded to pedal to the Brookhaven Police Station where he checked in with Officer Adam Brown who was on patrol Saturday.
    "He asked me if I knew the nature of the alarm," said Brown, who has been on the Brookhaven force for nearly three years. "When I told him I didn't know he just left.]

    I don't know about you, but I don't swing by the police station to find out about a call while I'm responding.

    [As it turns out, the fire call was not in Brookhaven at all.]

    Interesting, now what was he responding to?

    ["We got a call to be on stand-by for a house fire in Concordville," said Grant.]

    And Chris knew about the standby call?
    (these quotes are from http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2002/pa_may5b.html)

    Before you say that Chris Kangas' death was a LODD let me give you a scenario:
    I'm outside working in my yard and here some sirens. For some reason I'm unusually curious and happen to not have my pager on me. I decide to drive down to the station to listen to the radioes not knowing if my dept has a run or not. I get in an MVA on the way to the station and get killed. As it turned out the sirens were actually from a neighboring dept responding to a call. My dept was put on standby for the neighboring dept but I didn't know that because I didn't have my pager on me.

    So now let me ask you these two questions:
    1. Me driving to my station because of my curiosity of the sirens I heard means I was responding?

    2. How can I be responding if I don't even know that my dept has a call?

    Bottom line, Chris was not responding because he didn't know that he even had a call. It's quite clear that he had no idea that his dept had a call because he asked his friend "Is that us?, is that us?". How is him riding his bike to the his station a LODD when he wasn't responding? If he knew that he had a run then it would be a different story. But the fact is that he wasn't responding. So quit calling it a LODD. He was a good kid and deserves to be remembered, but he doesn't deserve the benefits or his name on the memorial.

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