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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyCFPD View Post
    By your logic, a firefighter that dies at a residential house fire does not deserve to be on the same fallen firefighters memorial as the FDNY from the WTC are on?
    Exactly.

    If a memorial is for firefighters who died at the World Trade Center, then you're damn right no one else should be on there.

    If a memorial is for firefighters, than someone who is not a firefighter should not be on there.

    If a memorial is for juniors/explorers who died performing their duties, than a firefighter should not be on there.

    I personally do not understand the mother of this boy wanting financial LODD benefits after she was denied her son's name on a memorial for firefighters. Death benefits are to help those who were financially dependent on the person who died - a teenager is financially dependent on his/her parents, not vice-versa. If what she's really upset about is that he is not being memorialized, then why not try to get a special memorial for him that memorializes his service as a junior firefighter (not one of the firefighters, but serving in his own way) - why go for the money?
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  2. #42
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    baileydonk, according to all articles that I have seen, his mother has consistently said she was not doing this for the money, but for his name to be on the monument.

    I said this before (on one of the 6 or 7 threads about this) - if everyone chipped in $10 they could pay for an Explorer/Junior/Cadet/etc monument to be placed right next to the NFF memorial.

    and this whole arguement/discussion would be done.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    baileydonk, according to all articles that I have seen, his mother has consistently said she was not doing this for the money, but for his name to be on the monument.

    I said this before (on one of the 6 or 7 threads about this) - if everyone chipped in $10 they could pay for an Explorer/Junior/Cadet/etc monument to be placed right next to the NFF memorial.

    and this whole arguement/discussion would be done.
    Nice sentiment, but do we really want to be building memorials for the children we plan on killing on the fireground in the future? If we can learn anything from all of this maybe it should be a foundation dedicated to cyclist safety

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Actually, hfdexplorer, you are correct. Until they are trained and certified (whether they are an Explorer/Junior/Probationary member) they aren't a firefighter. They are an Explorer/Junior/Probationary member.

    It's that simple.

    So if a probie collapsed over and died on the scene of a brush fire, you believe he shouldnt recieve any benefits? I dont think that is right! They are a firefighter, there official term is a "probationary firefighter". Just explain to me how you came up with this, because i am questioning your logic right now. Maybe im mistaken, or reading it wrong, but i dont understand.
    My views, are my views and do not give the views of any orginization i belong to.

  5. #45
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    No, you read it right. They should not receive the Federal PSOB and should not be on the National Fallen Fire Fighters memorial.

    "probationary firefighter"
    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #46
    Forum Member Hazmat91180's Avatar
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    Now I think this thread is going to semantics of words. Probationary means completely different things per each department. I could have my fire II cert, but am probationary for one year just because I am new to the department. Or it is up to the chief's discretion.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazmat91180 View Post
    Now I think this thread is going to semantics of words. Probationary means completely different things per each department. I could have my fire II cert, but am probationary for one year just because I am new to the department. Or it is up to the chief's discretion.
    Bro, it's all semantics. the argument (and yes, it has boiled down to an argument) is all semantics: what defines a firefighter? for example:

    over 18 vs under 18? and over 21 vs under 21?

    do they recieve a paycheck or not?

    do they respond to alarms in a motor vehicle, or do they run or ride a bicycle?

    do they have the proper firefighter training? or not? what is the paper training? Firefighter 1? firefighter 2, hazmat ops, MVC extrication, etc?
    are they off probation yet? even if they are certified as a career FF, if they are on probation, does that count?

    are they interiorly qualified? were they ever interiorly qualified? are they medically cleared to become interiorly qualified?

    do fire police qualify?

    do older members who pass on scenes while participating in non-suppressions roles count?

    traumatic deaths while actively suppressing the fire vs cardiac deaths from being out of shape?

    among numerous other variables..

    paid, volunteer, young, old, everyone has a different take on the situation, all based on their experiences. and it's an argument that won't be ending anytime soon.
    Last edited by DrParasite; 05-11-2007 at 09:16 PM. Reason: additional spaces for clarity
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, you read it right. They should not receive the Federal PSOB and should not be on the National Fallen Fire Fighters memorial.

    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    Bones, not that I entirely disagree with you, but there are differences. On my job, recruits earn FF1,2, Hazmat Ops, Nims, Safety and Survival, Flashover, Confined Space Rescue, Basic Rope Rescue, MRT(First Respoder), and a few other Certs I can't remember, while in the academy. They come out fully trained Probationary FF's, and remain a Probie for one year. They are expected to know the basics and be able to perform immediately. The probationary period is to make sure they know their stuff, have a good work ethic, and are a good fit with the dept. They are out there doing the job the day after graduation. They are FF's. Now, on a few combo departments here, they are called probies upon being voted in for membership, and are considered a probie until they receive the necessary training. They are not allowed to do the job until they receive the required training. They are not yet considered FF's. Like I said, I don't entirely disagree with you, but I believe there is a difference in how the term "Probationary FF" is used, and how they are viewed.

  9. #49
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    This whole debate is getting just plain silly. Chris was not responding to an alarm, period. He was not functioning in the line of duty. That is where the difference is, despite the fact that Chris should not have been responding to any type of an alarm, other than his school bell.

    If a probationary firefighter is operating at an alarm, and while operating at said alarm is killed, that would be a line of duty death, and should be honored as such.
    There is a huge difference between a ‘probationary’ firefighter, and a junior. A probationary is typically someone new to a job who has less than a year or so on.

    15 years ago we had a recruit killed while in the academy; this persons name was never submitted to the memorial because their death wasn’t considered a line-of-duty death.

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  11. #51
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    Whats your point?
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  12. #52
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    They were both killed on bicycles and had the same chance of operating at a structure fire as the Kangas boy.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, you read it right. They should not receive the Federal PSOB and should not be on the National Fallen Fire Fighters memorial.

    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    Ok bones... so for a probie who has recieved his ff1 and ff2 but dies on a scene should not recieve anything. Just because they are on probation doesnt mean they havent gone through training. On my dept. you are on probation for 1 year no matter if your a career firefighter transfering to our department or a guy who just wants to be a fireman. There is a big difference in this example but they are both on PROBATION and are treated the same.
    My views, are my views and do not give the views of any orginization i belong to.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, you read it right. They should not receive the Federal PSOB and should not be on the National Fallen Fire Fighters memorial.

    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    OK, this's getting asenine. That's like saying if a state has a "Fallen Police Officers" memorial, that Deputy Sheriffs or Highway Patrol Officers shouldn't be included, because their title isn't "Police Officer".

    The semantics backing your argument are specious at best, and that's being kind. We all know there's a big difference between a "Probationary Firefighter" and a "Junior Firefighter" or "Fire Explorer".
    Besides, by your line of "logic", such as you're calling it, a Fire Apparatus Engineer, Fire Captain, or Battalion Chief doesn't qualify either, because their job title isn't exactly "Firefighter".

    The state of the Fire Service in this country must be great, because the biggest issue we seem to have on our plate is "Who qualifies to bear the title 'Firefighter'?"
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    They were both killed on bicycles and had the same chance of operating at a structure fire as the Kangas boy.
    I've said that before in other posts. I totally agree with yah
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  16. #56
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    OK, this's getting asenine. That's like saying if a state has a "Fallen Police Officers" memorial, that Deputy Sheriffs or Highway Patrol Officers shouldn't be included, because their title isn't "Police Officer".

    The semantics backing your argument are specious at best, and that's being kind. We all know there's a big difference between a "Probationary Firefighter" and a "Junior Firefighter" or "Fire Explorer".
    Besides, by your line of "logic", such as you're calling it, a Fire Apparatus Engineer, Fire Captain, or Battalion Chief doesn't qualify either, because their job title isn't exactly "Firefighter".

    The state of the Fire Service in this country must be great, because the biggest issue we seem to have on our plate is "Who qualifies to bear the title 'Firefighter'?"
    I could give a rats @$$ about semantics. It's really simple. If you are trained and able to fight fires, you are a firefighter. In my area, a probationary firefighter is not. It has nothing to do with titles and/or names. It has all to do with what you CAN do and what you are ABLE to do.

    A firefighter can be assigned to direct traffic at a call. He's still a firefighter, just not directly doing it at that call. He's different than the guy that has only ever done that, but they are both doing the same task at that call.

    I would hope, that your apparatus driver/operators are firefighters first before they are allowed to drive/pump/etc. They are, a firefighter doing another task/job, regardless of what you name them. The guy that drove tractor trailers for a living and decided to join the FD to drive trucks and has never done anything else, is not a firefighter.


    Really, it's that simple. You are/were trained and able to do it, or your not.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #57
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    I could give a rats @$$ about semantics. It's really simple. If you are trained and able to fight fires, you are a firefighter. In my area, a probationary firefighter is not. It has nothing to do with titles and/or names. It has all to do with what you CAN do and what you are ABLE to do.
    That includes when a member has been through Firefighter I, graduated, and is placed on his 6 month, or 1 year probation?

  18. #58
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    That would include that per his definition, yes. at that point, the person has the basic skills in place, to be able to work at a structure fire, and act as a full firefighter.

    However, like Bones has said, in some places probation is different. You can be a probie in my fire dpet, with absolutely no training. at this point, you aren't a firefighter. Once you complete PA Essentials of firefighting, First Responder, and HazMat training, we then consider you a firefighter, and let you operate as such, with an experienced member of the department, on calls. Is there more training for you to do, of course. There is always training. For us though, you have to have PA Essentials, to operate on the fire ground, and until you do, i wouldn't consider you a line of duty death if something happened to you on say the rehab truck, or while you were being a gofer. Not sure about what my department would think, but that's just me.

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    It has nothing to do with titles and/or names.
    And this would be an exact 180 from your earlier statement (with which I did and still do take issue with):
    Note how it does not say firefighter, it says probationary firefighter. There is a difference.
    OK, so to clarify that someone is in fact "trained and able to be" a firefighter, yet is within their probationary period in their department, we'll call them a "Firefighter on Probation" (or "FOP" for short). Oh but wait, then everybody will want to argue why we hired someone who's currently on probation. *LOL*

    There's no limit to how stupid we can get about titles and such...but please, let's do our best to find the limit!
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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  20. #60
    Forum Member FDAIC485's Avatar
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    My FD has a pretty simple way of who qualifies as a firefighter. If you could not fight fire you would no longer be employed. Nuff said.
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 05-15-2007 at 01:18 PM.
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