1. #1
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    Default Below-grade master stream ops.

    I'm looking for a little apparatus innovation here... but first a little background.

    The department I now work for is very very fond of Squrts (50' boom-box with Duo-Safety ladder welded). The main use is as an elevated master stream, with minor use for low level access (strip malls and such). We are slowly becoming more of an aerial-ladder friendly department, but not without complaints. The last crop of aerials that came in were ALF 75' rear mount ladders, with a pre piped waterway and Elkheart X-stream nozzle. An issue arrising from the field stems from the inability of the X-stream nozzle to be used in a below-grade operation effectively with the ladder.

    Let me clarify. A well-used technique of my department for strip mall fire is to use the boom of the squrt to enter the front of the involved area and use the master stream to hit the floor, walls, and celing. With the ladder this is not possible due to the nozzle coming in contact with the last few rungs on the ladder. A few of our operators discovered this the hard way.

    Anyway, the question is if anyone has an answer to this problem. A extendable nozzle, a removable tip, a pinnable nozzle similar to the firefighting/rescue position pin, whatever. And if this product exists, a few pictures would be nice.

    And before people start to turn this into a 'get a ladder if you need it, get a squrt if you need it' thread, understand that I am looking for innovation only.

    Iluv4201

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    Don't know if it's an option you're willing to look at, but have you guys looked into the quick attack monitors like the Blitzfire, Mercury, or RAM, or whatever else the other manufacturers have?

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    Default Ram portable montior

    Yeah, we actually have a RAM on our ALFs... but we are looking for a larger GPM flow. And the ability to have greater reach into the structure itself.

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    Yesterday the engine I work on, flow tested our new Elkhart RAM and I would have to say for the most part it wasn't that impressive when compared to our removable deck gun. The EP was 165 psi for the RAM to get the 80 psi NP. Although we didn't test it yesterday, prior tests have shown a considerable difference in GPM when we use our portable deck gun. More GPM at lower EP. On a side note we know Elkhart recommeds 3" hose for the RAM, but our 2.5" Ponn con quest gave us less friction loss than the rubber 3" hose. You can get alot more GPM and nozzle movement(up,down,right,left) with a portable deck gun than you can with the RAM.

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    Tower bucket (mid mount for ease of positioning) on the sidewalk use the gun with a smoothbore. Alright, maybe its not an innovation but nothing beats it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecfr1978
    Yesterday the engine I work on, flow tested our new Elkhart RAM and I would have to say for the most part it wasn't that impressive when compared to our removable deck gun. The EP was 165 psi for the RAM to get the 80 psi NP. Although we didn't test it yesterday, prior tests have shown a considerable difference in GPM when we use our portable deck gun. More GPM at lower EP. On a side note we know Elkhart recommeds 3" hose for the RAM, but our 2.5" Ponn con quest gave us less friction loss than the rubber 3" hose. You can get alot more GPM and nozzle movement(up,down,right,left) with a portable deck gun than you can with the RAM.
    The RAM does an alright job, being what it is. But to say you can get more GPM out of a portable monitor than a RAM isnt really fair, since its only designed to flow 350 GPM, as opposed to your monitor. My issues with the RAM arrise from the inability to fix the nozzle in a specified position un-manned. We use a piece of webbing to combat this issue now.

    But I bet the RAM does weigh considerably less than your deck gun.

    iluv4201

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    If you just want high flow and ability to go at any angle, get an Elkhart Jumbo shut off, mini stream shaper and an 1 1/2 master stream tip. 1 guy, about 500 GPM and alot cheaper. No ability to work unmanned, not that that happens much and no safety shutoff like the blitz fire. Used ours a few times with excellent results. I'm all for the TL bucket as well, done that and it's very effective.

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    The RAM we bought has the single 1 3/8" tip smooth bore and flows 500 gpm. Although it might not really be a fare comparsion to the deck gun as far as the gpm, I will say with one person the RAM is by far easier and less time consuming than the deck gun to deploy. With that said each fire dept has to determine which is more important, set up time or GPM. One nice thing about the RAM is that it the nozzle man has a control valve at the nozzle to open and close it, where the deck gun doesn't.

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    What kind and amount of 2-1/2" were you using to loose 85psi in friction loss? We're set with 225' of 3" off the rear, only running at 110ep. And that was verified through field tests with pressure gauges.

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    Default Portable GPM at ground level

    How about an articulated squirt like Philadelphia FD runs. Same water way gpm as a tower ladder, I thinkg, but much cheaper and easier to get into tight spaces. Another option would be to get an Apollo portable monitor base and feed it with two 3" lines. Should be able to flow big gpm with that setup. The blitzfires and other portable monitors might be a little light for a strip mall only flowing 4 - 500 gpm.

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    How about an extension of the piping that can be attached to the existing wateray connection at the ladder, extended out , say 10', and then have the nozzle attached to it. I can see an issue with supporting it's weight though. Maybe a piece of angle iron attached to the pipe with a T where it meets the ladder, and a quick hook system around the rungs of the ladder.

    Probably not a feasible solution but just brainstorming here I guess.

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    We are using 2.5" Ponn conn quest at 200'. When we tested it, we thought that something was wrong. Then we contacted our local Elkhart rep who was testing the same setup for a FD down south and they had the same problem with some of there older engines. However, when they tested the same setup on a new engine they had an EP of 140 psi. Only difference was they specd there new engine with 3" pipe to the 2.5" outlet. There older engine, like ours, only has 2.5" pipe to the outlet.

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    Not that I am supporting RK Aerials or anything, but does this aerial look capable of supporting below-grade master stream ops? If there is no rung in the red section of the tip, it appears (to me) the nozzle could potentially move upwards. Anyone have info? I tried RK's site, but no luck.

    Iluv4201
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iluv4201
    Not that I am supporting RK Aerials or anything, but does this aerial look capable of supporting below-grade master stream ops? If there is no rung in the red section of the tip, it appears (to me) the nozzle could potentially move upwards. Anyone have info? I tried RK's site, but no luck.

    Iluv4201
    I'll bet that with that thing in the lowest angle (-12 degrees?) the nozzle can't raise enough to hit ceilings on the first floor.
    Squrt-yes
    Snozzle-yes
    Tower-yes!
    Regular stick-haven't seen one yet. The concept is valid and it would be a hell on a capability on a stick.

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    A couple of thoughts...

    - Most aerials today have a replaceable bolt-on egress section at the tip (as in the red section in Iluv's picture). If the aerial is still going to be used mostly as an elevated stream, why not just remove the egress section? (yes, I know, it is probably going to void some warranty and violate some standard, but it would work, and it wouldn't be the first time a warranty or standard has been forgone for the sake of functionality in a very specific application)

    - Elkhart seems to have been making a big deal this year about their RF EXT monitors (first the Vulcan RF EXT, now the Scorpion RF EXT). I could be wrong, but wouldn't you think that they must be heading down that road for a reason? You know the old "ya don't build a bridge unless you are planning to cross the river"...?

    (I was going to quote a line from the movie Crimson Tide, but I figured that wouldn't quite be appropriate....) If they don't come up with an application for the RF EXT, there was no point in developing them in the first place.
    Last edited by BlitzfireSolo; 10-12-2006 at 01:15 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iluv4201
    Not that I am supporting RK Aerials or anything, but does this aerial look capable of supporting below-grade master stream ops? If there is no rung in the red section of the tip, it appears (to me) the nozzle could potentially move upwards. Anyone have info? I tried RK's site, but no luck.

    Iluv4201

    My town's dept has a 75' RK ladder.
    It has been used for below grade master stream ops once about 2 1/2 yrs ago. it hit the floor and went pretty far into the building couldnt get the ceiling due to front porch style sidewalk. this fire had a huge head start and this building was well involved by the time units got on scene. I believe it is the aggressive attack by the below grade master stream that saved the rest of the block.



    Last edited by k1500chevy97; 10-12-2006 at 12:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo
    (I was going to quote a line from the movie Crimson Tide, but I figured that wouldn't quite be appropriate....) If they don't come up with an application for the RF EXT, there was no point in develping them in the first place.
    hmm something along these lines ..

    they're fueling their missiles why do you think they're doing that
    you dont put on a condom unless you're gonna $%&#

    one of my favorite lines from that movie

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    Take a 45 degree 2 1/2" discharge elbow and put it in your engineers compt. If you need to flow below grade, stick the elbow on the tip of the monitor then reattach the nozzle.

    Seems to me like every areial ladder I've seen with a prepiped waterway will have the same issue. At negative elevation all youll be able to do is wash the floor, unless you use a fog stream (and we all know what that can do).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecfr1978
    nozzle man has a control valve at the nozzle to open and close it, where the deck gun doesn't.
    Simple solution, add a 2 1/2" shutoff to your deckgun, right before the tips. Now the deck gun has the ability to open and close. We have them on all of ours.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    http://www.mcfd.net/index1.html

    Prepipe a master stream on the front bumper.

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    http://www.mcfd.net/images/e454new2.jpg

    Sorry about the bad link. Try this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by salvage
    http://www.mcfd.net/index1.html

    Prepipe a master stream on the front bumper.
    That is a good idea, except our batt. chiefs tend to frown on us parking the apparatus inside the involved structure.

    iluv4201

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    Default Wow..

    I can't believe this, you use snorkels now, are "upgrading" to ALF (!) rear-mounts, and are suprised you can't do what you are used to?

    An UPGRADE would be an aerialscope (or pretty much any kind of tower ladder or ladder tower with below grade capabilities).

    On a VERY regular basis, we use our mid-mount to go through bay windows, front porches/doors, etc.... its one of the things they're made for...

    edited to add: Also, with your 'step guns', try taking the crappy nozzles off of them and putting something like a TFT on it and crank the pressure (a little). I have done this (on fires) and pumped 800 GPM through 100' of 3" hose into the step gun w/ a TFT nozzle (the one from the apparatus-mounted deck gun)... just a thought...

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefeng7
    I can't believe this, you use snorkels now, are "upgrading" to ALF (!) rear-mounts, and are suprised you can't do what you are used to?

    An UPGRADE would be an aerialscope (or pretty much any kind of tower ladder or ladder tower with below grade capabilities).


    Jon

    Whoa whoa whoa... I never said 'upgrade'. I only said we were becoming more ladder-friendly. And ALF was the first batch of rear mounts. The second were Rosenbauer... yeah, Rosenbauer.
    And I'm not 'suprised you can't do what you are used to'. I am fully aware of what the differences in function between a Squrt and Ladder are - I was only inquiring if anyone had any ideas as to how to bridge the gap between the two.
    I would love to see Tower Ladders running around the county, but the Department is pretty well set on single axle 400 gallon tanks with a 1500 gpm pumps, so a tower, weight wise,
    is not all that practical.


    iluv4201

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    Another possibility for you since you believe that midmounts are out is to keep the squrts and run them as engine co.'s. Use your 75' sticks as ladder co.'s that way you can use the strength's of each while minimizing the weakness. That way training on new equipment such as a tower is kept to a min. and all line personnel will be familiar with the equipment.

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