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    Default 2 1/2 Feet And Higher

    We Just Had Structure Fire A Few Days Ago In A 2-story Residential. I Am Sure All Of You Guys That Have Been Around For Awhile Have Seen This But It Was My 1st. Alarm Came Out As Second Story Full Of Black Soot . When We Arrived On Scene There Was No Smoke Showing Just A Little Black Area Above A Window On Side B. Packed Up Went Inside 1st Floor Was Okay No Sign Of Heat Or Smoke When We Got Half Way Up The Stairs To The Second Floor You Could See Soot On The Walls. When We Got Upstairs I Could Not Beleive It, From About Dresser High Everything Upstairs Way Was Burnt Or Melted, Detector, Tvs, Cds Etc. Everything Below That Was Just Covered In Soot. The Upstairs Consisted Of Three Bedrooms And Two Closets. All Three Rooms Were Burnt The Same Way. I Understand The Fire Flashed And Then Snuffed Itself Out Because There Was No Air Left. The Part I Don't Get Is Why The Fire Went Out Since The Window On The B Side In The Room Where The Fire Had Started.was Gone, So You Think That It Would Of Fed The Fire. Just Curious. I Am Sure Some Of You Are Thinking What An Idiot But This Made Me Curious.

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    I doubt that someone who cannot figure out the proper way to use a keyboard could possibly understand a complex scientific phenomenon like fire dynamics.

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    LOL at the Sarcastic One...

    Although I admit I felt like I was at a tennis match, albeit my head going up & down instead of right & left

    Anyway, it doesn't sound like a flashover to me. Sounds like something burned, but didn't extend. A mattress maybe? Enough heat to melt ****, but nothing close enough got hot enough to extend the fire.

    I've seen fires with similiar damage that had almost no smoke showing on arrival, and took very little water (single digits of gallons...) to extinguish whatever was burning.

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    I Have Never Said That I Was A English Major. Anyway When We Arrived On Scene We Did Not Use Any Water The Fire Was Completely Out. There Was Still Quite A Bit Of Heat But No Fire. A Table Lamp That Fell Onto A Bunk Bed Was The Origin Of The Fire According To Fire Marshal. It Burnt Through Part Of The Lower Mattress And Ignited The Upper One. I Can Understand The Burning Like That In One , But The Whole Upstairs Was The Part That Amazed Me. Im Sure You Big City Boys See It All The Time , So I Must Just Some Hick Vollie With No Background Right.

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    No, I'm a vollie in a relatively small town (new term I recently read: Rurban -- not quite suburban, no longer rural..."Rurban"). It is a pretty amazing phenomen (spelling?) to see...in addition to mattresses, I've seen a Christmas tree do it...I guess the tree was dry enough to catch, but moist enough that it was a "slow burn" that put out enough heat & smoke to do the damage, but never had enough open flame / radiant heat to spread.

    And the gripe isn't anything to do with the English. It's tough to read the way you're typing.

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    Can't help but imagine how the fire investigator from Backdraft would describe that scene .......

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Can't help but imagine how the fire investigator from Backdraft would describe that scene .......
    Ooohh...I got it...wait for update..


    Okay....here we go..

    "..You sneaky little son of a bitch...Hide and seek... Come on, tell me what I want to know...Heavy smoke stains observed in entry room. Demarkation line high, fire never got hot enough here to cook soot off. It started somewhere else...Less soot here. More heat.....And very little soot here...It started in this room. Took its time, hung out... but the air ran out. It couldn't breathe. So it was snuffed. But it wasn't dead... still all that trapped heat, lying low, waiting for some sucker to open the door and give it that one gulp of air...
    Last edited by pfd4life; 04-03-2006 at 11:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    ......Im Sure You Big City Boys See It All The Time , So I Must Just Some Hick Vollie With No Background Right.

    With comments like this I can't understand why most aren't responding.


    ps....If you did have "background" you wouldn't have posted this......


    You're Awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    I Have Never Said That I Was A English Major. Anyway When We Arrived On Scene We Did Not Use Any Water The Fire Was Completely Out. There Was Still Quite A Bit Of Heat But No Fire. A Table Lamp That Fell Onto A Bunk Bed Was The Origin Of The Fire According To Fire Marshal. It Burnt Through Part Of The Lower Mattress And Ignited The Upper One. I Can Understand The Burning Like That In One , But The Whole Upstairs Was The Part That Amazed Me. Im Sure You Big City Boys See It All The Time , So I Must Just Some Hick Vollie With No Background Right.
    Genius. If you want a serious answer to your question, I am certain that many of us would be happy to oblige. But the idiotic way youtype your posts and the underlying attitide tells me that you are trying to be inciteful.

    That is exactly what is needed on these forums, one more person trying to start trouble.

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    I APOLOGIZE , I AM NOT TRYING TO BE AN ***HOLE ,BAD DAY YESTERDAY. THE ONLY THING THAT I WAS TRYING TO CONVEY WAS THAT IN MY 5 YEARS I HAD NEVER SEEN A HOUSE BURN THAT WAY THAT IS ALL. i WILL NOT POST HERE ANYMORE.

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    Dalmation190, we had one a few years ago that was set by a kid who was bored. He lit a couch in the living room on fire and then left. The House Appeared Exactly As Typed Above. It Was Reported As A Smell Of Smoke In The Area And LEO Saw Smoke Coming From The Attic Gable Vent. We Got On Scene Thinking There Was An Attic Fire, But Found It To Be The First Floor Living Room.

    (that was tough to do )
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    George, Why are you riding his ***? Big deal he can't spell and typing is all over the place. At least the guy is trying to find an answer to something he doesn't know. I've seen way worse on here. It seems you are getting more cynical by the day. If you didn't like what you read you didn't have to respond and insult the guy. I would think a person that always tries to put on a good show like your history has shown, would at least take the effort to try and make constructive criticism and try to help this guy improve rather than just bash him.

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    Default Taking a sidestep.

    PS - for those that care, it's really not that hard to get typing to show that way. Type your statement in Word. Select all the text, then click on Format, Change Case, choose Title Case. (then again, you can use the same steps to make it Sentence case).
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    For those capable of understanding this...

    The likelihood that this fire went to flashover is remote. What likely happened is fairly simple...one side of the fire triangle went away. That would be the oxygen. As anyone with even a minimal amount of fire service eperience knows, furniture fires are notoriously smoky. The tendency is for the upholstery to smolder and generate lots of smoke and lots of heat energy. This somldering fire will also gobble up most of the available oxygen in the room. As the oxygen level is deplted, the amount of heat energy put out by the burning upholstery is reduced. This will occur until the fire goes completely out.

    I investigated a fatal fire where the fire was not discovered until the victim's son went to check on his father after not hearing from him for several days. when he entered the house, all surfaces were covered with a coating of soot. No heat. No smoke. Dad is dead in bed. Post morterm exam showed carboxyhemoglobin level over 70%.

    Fire damage consisted of a footstool that had burned completely through the floor of the living room and dropped into the basement. The depletion of oxygen in the room caused the fire to dwindle to a point that was similar to a charcoal barbecue. There was no fire in the basement, which indicated that the majority of the fuel package was consumed when the floor was breached.

    Here is an interesting note about flashover. Research by DeHann and Icove (for example) points out that at flashover, oxygen depletion is very high, due to the massive amount of heat energy being relased. Oxygen levels can drop to below 3%, with the dynamic fire conditions continuing. The nature of the post-flashover fire will be determined by the rate at which oxygen is available through openings, HVAC and adjacent compartments.

    Remember also that as a fire in a compartment develops, much of the heat is lost to the walls, ceiling, floors, contents, openings, etc. If sufficient air is not available to the fire in the incipient stages, the ire will lose more enrgy than it creates, causing it to eventually go out.

    This information is readily available in graphic form through the works of Quitnerre, Drysdale, Babrauskas and DeHaan.

    In short, the theory that the fire "flashed" and "snuffed itself out" is erroneous. This would have been a long process involving decaying, ventilation controlled compartment fire.

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    George,

    I have seen and understand the concept that you are describing. However, the two or 3 times I have seen this over the last 15 years have all been in instances where the entire structure (windows & all) remained intact.

    If there was an open window, as the guy proclaims, it would seem much more difficult to prove the fire became oxygen deprived. I am not saying impossible, as I am sure you see much more of this than I do. You investigate fires, I just put fires out in my small section of the city.

    Just seems hard for me to say that a fire becomes oxygen deprived in a room with an open window. What are the odds?
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    George,

    As one that reads these threads more than posting(listens more than speaking) I have learned quite alot from people that have vast amounts of experience and knowledge. Your posts, generally, are very insightful and informative. From what I gather from your posts, I think that the opinion of most people on here means little or nothing to you. This being said, I still wish to tell you that your condescending tone and cynisism are not appreciated by the people that have straight forward questions or points of discussion. You slam people because of their typing syle, punctuation and grammar. Not everyone on these forums have the advanced education or formal training to be able to engage in "typing battles". Not everyone can be an english major. The styles of typing and communication on these threads are as varied as the types and styles of communication that you will find in almost any house in the business. However, they have the guts to TRY to put into words, the questions that they have about doing their job or doing it better. Many are just trying to find answers in any way that they can. Wouldn't it be more benificial to the thread (and to the forum as a whole) if you could just offer us the insightful and knowledgeable type of information that I mentioned earlier?

    I mean, really, if you want to comment on someone's typing style or grammatical errors, couldn't you use constructive critisism to convey your point rather than "bashing" them?

    Again, I think that you and others on here offer a vast amount of knowledge and experience to these forums. I just hate to see these forums turn into threads of insults and arguments.

    *stepping down from my soap box*

    *shuffling back over to my corner to donn the prox suit for the flames*
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    jercvfd,

    Like memphis said, I have also seen this in structures where the compartment wasn't breached, but I am curious, when you mentioned the soot around the window on side B, was this the fire room or was this another room on the same floor? Also was the window open or vented by the fire/heat? If the room was simply open, would there be enough oxygen being entrained back the the seat of the fire to provide adequate flow of oxygen to support further combustion?

    Here again, I have seen similar burns, just not with a vent opening in the structure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a
    George,

    I have seen and understand the concept that you are describing. However, the two or 3 times I have seen this over the last 15 years have all been in instances where the entire structure (windows & all) remained intact.

    If there was an open window, as the guy proclaims, it would seem much more difficult to prove the fire became oxygen deprived. I am not saying impossible, as I am sure you see much more of this than I do. You investigate fires, I just put fires out in my small section of the city.

    Just seems hard for me to say that a fire becomes oxygen deprived in a room with an open window. What are the odds?
    I note that he doesn't say the window was open, he says the window is "gone". My guess is that the window fell out after the fire had sufficiently decayed to preclude its positive development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cityfire7
    George,

    As one that reads these threads more than posting(listens more than speaking) I have learned quite alot from people that have vast amounts of experience and knowledge. Your posts, generally, are very insightful and informative. From what I gather from your posts, I think that the opinion of most people on here means little or nothing to you. This being said, I still wish to tell you that your condescending tone and cynisism are not appreciated by the people that have straight forward questions or points of discussion. You slam people because of their typing syle, punctuation and grammar. Not everyone on these forums have the advanced education or formal training to be able to engage in "typing battles". Not everyone can be an english major. The styles of typing and communication on these threads are as varied as the types and styles of communication that you will find in almost any house in the business. However, they have the guts to TRY to put into words, the questions that they have about doing their job or doing it better. Many are just trying to find answers in any way that they can. Wouldn't it be more benificial to the thread (and to the forum as a whole) if you could just offer us the insightful and knowledgeable type of information that I mentioned earlier?

    I mean, really, if you want to comment on someone's typing style or grammatical errors, couldn't you use constructive critisism to convey your point rather than "bashing" them?

    Again, I think that you and others on here offer a vast amount of knowledge and experience to these forums. I just hate to see these forums turn into threads of insults and arguments.

    *stepping down from my soap box*

    *shuffling back over to my corner to donn the prox suit for the flames*
    I have carefully pondered what you have written. I note with great interest that you failed to note that I was actually theonly one who even answered his question. But I suppose that was to be expected.

    After considering what you have written, and giving it great thought, I have decided that I do not care what you think.

    Have a nice day.

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    Nice.

    Thanks George. Have a great day
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    And by the way George, your explanation was great. As I said earlier, your knowledge is vast but you sometimes have the people skills of a wolverine on crack
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    When our Dept. arrived on scene,the only visible sign that there was possibly a fire was a dark line of soot from the window on side "b" all of the way to the peak of the roof. The window on side "b" that I am referring to was the window in the room were the fire started. When we entered the upstairs the screen on the window that was broke had so much soot on it you could not see through it. If that window did break during the fire, I would think that it would of fueled the fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    When our Dept. arrived on scene,the only visible sign that there was possibly a fire was a dark line of soot from the window on side "b" all of the way to the peak of the roof. The window on side "b" that I am referring to was the window in the room were the fire started. When we entered the upstairs the screen on the window that was broke had so much soot on it you could not see through it. If that window did break during the fire, I would think that it would of fueled the fire?
    I wasn't there. I provided a general answer. There are a hundred variables as to the role of the window in this incident.

    A screen in the window cuts doen the air flow through the window significantly. If it was clogged early in the fire, that could account for the lack of airflow to cause the fire to continue to burn.

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    Words misspelled in georges posts or improper english/ grammatical errors.

    A screen in the window cuts doen the air flow through the window significantly. -misspelled down

    I note with great interest that you failed to note that I was actually theonly one who even answered his question. -no space between "theonly"

    As anyone with even a minimal amount of fire service eperience knows, furniture fires are notoriously smoky. -misspelled experience, smokey

    This somldering fire will also gobble up most of the available oxygen in the room. -misspelled smoldering

    As the oxygen level is deplted, the amount of heat energy put out by the burning upholstery is reduced. -misspelled depleted

    when he entered the house, all surfaces were covered with a coating of soot. -did not capitalize "when"

    If sufficient air is not available to the fire in the incipient stages, the ire will lose more enrgy than it creates, causing it to eventually go out. - even a preschooler will tell you that you need an f to spell fire

    But the idiotic way youtype your posts and the underlying attitide tells me that you are trying to be inciteful. - no space between "youtype"


    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I doubt that someone who cannot figure out the proper way to use a keyboard could possibly understand a complex scientific phenomenon like fire dynamics.

    I am thinking of a saying about glass houses. Just an observance. As stated before, I would think that someone as eduacted as you always like to tell us you are, would know that there are people from all walks of life performing this job. I would think that somewhere in your career you would have had a chance to review ideas on basic courtesy, sympathy or at least theories in instrcutional techniques. Get off of your high horse and join the rest of the people that are here to learn, teach and exchange ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEck51
    Words misspelled in georges posts or improper english/ grammatical errors.

    A screen in the window cuts doen the air flow through the window significantly. -misspelled down

    I note with great interest that you failed to note that I was actually theonly one who even answered his question. -no space between "theonly"

    As anyone with even a minimal amount of fire service eperience knows, furniture fires are notoriously smoky. -misspelled experience, smokey

    This somldering fire will also gobble up most of the available oxygen in the room. -misspelled smoldering

    As the oxygen level is deplted, the amount of heat energy put out by the burning upholstery is reduced. -misspelled depleted

    when he entered the house, all surfaces were covered with a coating of soot. -did not capitalize "when"

    If sufficient air is not available to the fire in the incipient stages, the ire will lose more enrgy than it creates, causing it to eventually go out. - even a preschooler will tell you that you need an f to spell fire

    But the idiotic way youtype your posts and the underlying attitide tells me that you are trying to be inciteful. - no space between "youtype"





    I am thinking of a saying about glass houses. Just an observance. As stated before, I would think that someone as eduacted as you always like to tell us you are, would know that there are people from all walks of life performing this job. I would think that somewhere in your career you would have had a chance to review ideas on basic courtesy, sympathy or at least theories in instrcutional techniques. Get off of your high horse and join the rest of the people that are here to learn, teach and exchange ideas.
    Wow! you caught all kinds of mistakes! You're good.

    First of all, my reference to this person's "typing" had nothing to do with spelling and grammar. It had everything to do with the style of typing, which is typical of a high school blogger. But you keep on looking for the insignficant little typos and miss the fact that I am the only one who actually answered the kids' question.

    No high horse. Nobody that I like or have respect for ever seems to complain about my "people skills". Kids I teach in school never seem to complain about the instructional techniques I use. Well...there is the one guy that I threw out of my class because he was talking on his cell phone, but I digress...

    I have also carefully reviewed your post. I have come to the conclusion that I really don't care what you think, either.

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