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Thread: Pump and Roll

  1. #1
    Forum Member canuck1's Avatar
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    Default Pump and Roll

    anyone out there have a truck capable of pump and roll?

    How is the pump driven - Transmission mounted PTO or Rear Engine PTO? or Independantly driven Pump (gas engine)?

    Pros ? Cons ?

    Pump ratings?

    I understand that it is not possible to get a 1250 US GPM with pump and roll capablility off a transmission PTO, as Allsion and Chelsea will not improve the horsepower and torque required to drive the pump. Going to a REPTO presents some problems as well.

    Open discussion...fire away... Thanx in advance


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber mohican's Avatar
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    Default What are you trying to accomplish?

    I'm mentioning Darley because that is what I'm familiar with. Hale and Waterous make good pumps too.

    We have a truck buillt on a Ford 800 with a front mount pump that can pump and roll. It has a Darley 750 gpm 2 stage pump, and can exceed the 750 by a good margin during pump test from draft.

    Darley makes at least a 1500 front mount pump, although not all engine manufacturers rate their engines for that much flow driven from the front hub of the crankshaft

    Darley also makes a hydraulic driven pto pump that they rate up to 1000gpm. The advantage of hydraulic drive is that it can generate the pump volume independent of ground speed.

    In real world applications, I don't know why you would need that much volume for pump and roll. The pump and roll is of benefit in a brush fire.

    If you have your heart set on pump and roll, and 1250 gpm then a conventional chassis rig with a front mount pump may be your best bet. (or least expensive option)

    Another way to do this with a midship rig is to add a separate pto pump for the pump and roll. If you are wanting to flow several remotes or boosters for brush work, a separate 250-350 gpm pto pump should be adequate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck1
    anyone out there have a truck capable of pump and roll?

    How is the pump driven - Transmission mounted PTO or Rear Engine PTO? or Independantly driven Pump (gas engine)?

    Pros ? Cons ?

    Pump ratings?
    Transmission mounted PTO 1250 Hale Pump (1971 Pirsch/Cummins/Allison) - they made things different then! I am told that this combination doesn't happen today, but I don't really believe that its impossible. When somebody tells you that something is impossible, you must find out WHY and what it would take to fix it. The question is, why do you want a pump that big to pump and roll? You can't get more than 700GPM or so from most Tank-to-Pump lines and i doubt you are going to pump and roll with a tanker behind you....

    Quote Originally Posted by canuck1
    anyone out there have a truck capable of pump and roll?

    I understand that it is not possible to get a 1250 US GPM with pump and roll capablility off a transmission PTO, as Allsion and Chelsea will not improve the horsepower and torque required to drive the pump. Going to a REPTO presents some problems as well.

    Open discussion...fire away... Thanx in advance
    Why does REPTO present some problems? I have no idea - actually curious...

    Sounds like a good discussion...

    Jon

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    We have a waterous that is capeable of pump and roll. We use it in addition to our main pump on the truck. It is a gas job and it will supply two 13/4 (45mm) lines . We don't use it alot but when we do we don't seem to have any problems with it.

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    After extensive research, our department’s structure fire/pump and roll pumper is finally on order.

    We decided to go with a Darley 1250 gpm (1050 imp, 5000 l/m) main midship pump with a Waterous CPK-2 high pressure PTO pump, with both pumps sharing the main manifold.

    Both pumps are designed to work exclusively and independently of one another (Darley for stationary/structure type fires, and Waterous for pump and roll only)

    Installed on the custom bumper extension is a Akron Firefox bumper monitor plumbed to Class A foam.

    The main body of the apparatus is a heated enclosed top mount pumphouse with SCBA seating for three.

    The chassis is an International 7600 with 310hp engine and Allision EVS 3500 transmission with PTO. It also has a selectable 2 speed rear end. One important note is that this design made it imperative that 6th gear on the Allison could not be locked out, otherwise the truck’s top speed would only be 55mph. With 6th gear the top speed is approx 75 mph. This required approval from International, Darley, and Allison (which we have).

    With a 1st gear ratio of 4.59:1 and the selectable low range rear end ratio of 7.39:1, we’re confident (at least mathematically) that we’ll achieve a ground speed of approx 3mph at 1100rpm. This speed will be further reduced by ground that is softer than pavement.

    The PTO pump will be geared (PTO & Pump Transmission) to produce 100 gpm at 100psi at 1100 rpm engine speed (the speed of the impeller is 4500 rpm). The Firefox bumper turret has a selectable flow that will most likely be set at 30gpm.

    On the PTO pump side (totally independent of the main midship pump through a check valves) is a Darley pressure relief valve that is adjustable (Darley says 75-800psi). This is important because when the driver goes above 1100rpm the additional pump pressure generated will be returned to the booster tank. This allows the driver to have his foot to the floor (2200 engine rpm and an impeller speed of 9000 rpm) and the pressure generated is still 100psi / 60gpm. Of course the pressure relief valve allows us to either reduce or increase the pressure to tweak the flow. This paragraph was worked out with the Waterous engineers.

    For grass and light bush fires we use 1” hose. If required a firefighter will be able to walk along side (remember 3mph) and fight fire one handed (no nozzle reaction to 300psi). Since the PTO pump is plumbed into the main manifold, every discharge on the truck can be used.

    All of the controls for the pump and roll (with the exception of the pressure relief….too big) are in the cab of the truck. All of the controls for the main midship pump are in the top mount pumphouse.

    The main Darley 1250gpm pump has an FRC pump boss engine governor, FRC ultimate flow gauges on all discharges (except bumper monitor), a FoamPro 2001 foam system (520gpm@ 0.5%) plumbed to the rear 2 ½”, both speedlays, and the bumper turret).

    The emergency lighting all NFPA 1901 complient Whelen Super LED including Whelen Freedom lightbar, plus LED traffic advisor, 500 watt generator, 2x 1000 watt and 2x 500 watt floodlights.

    The full frame hand built body is totally extruded aluminum (6061/6063 structure with 5083 salt water marine grade body panels & 3033 treadplate)

    And the winner was….. Fort Garry Firetrucks, Winnipeg Manitoba a family owned business since 1919 (ISO 9001, CWB certified). $299,300 (US$260,000 approx)

    Now all they have to do is build it properly (this is our 2nd pumper from them so we know what to expect).

    No, I do not in anyway, shape, or form work for Fort Garry

    I hope this helps. Feel free to post any questions or comments

    Stay Safe

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    Talking Our pump and rollin' engines

    The Brush Engines that we have in the two Departments where I work vary..... at one Department, we have a combination of P.T.O. driven pumps. At the second Department I work for (a much larger Department) we have Auxillary driven pumps.
    My personal preference is the Aux. driven pumps. Some of the advantages are: Totally independant of the vehicle motor (simply put..... you can pump whatever p.s.i. you need, no matter what speed you are driving..... or not driving), Aux. pumps' fuel lines can be tied into the vehicles fuel tank/system, Aux. pumps are so easy to use and operate, Aux. pumps truly "pump and roll", certain hoselines or all hoselines can be tied into the Aux. pump, still have the capabilities of flowin' Class A/B foams, modern Aux. pumps only have one button to start and engauge the pump, are very simple pumps..... so when something goes wrong.... it is very easy to troubleshoot.
    Disadvantages are: It' s another pump that must be checked daily/weekly or whatever your Department S.O.G. states, Aux. pumps are normally limited in size (the largest I have seen is 500 g.p.m.), Aux. pumps may take up a little more space than other pump types, yearly drafting certifications are required even for Aux. pumps.
    In my opinion, for wildland........ there is no pump that even comes close to the Aux. pump. In So. California, we know a thing or two about wildland fires.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    As it seems you already know, PTO drives are limited to about 1000 GPM, and that only for 100-150 hours before they must be rebuilt. Not a very good system. An aux PTO pump or a diesel powered aux would almost certainly be more cost effective. Our newest engine has one of the 3-cylinder diesel waterous aux pumps and it is great. Reliable, powerful, also if pumping a long duration veg fire I will shut off the main truck engine and just let the little aux purr along, it is better to have a little engine working at 50% load then to have a huge engine working at 1% load anyway. The cons are the maintenance to the aux pump engine and transmission (not a real big deal though) and the inital purchase cost which is quite steep comparatively. But it is so much simpler to operate than any main engine driven system.

    Birken

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    Default Pump and Roll imformation

    I hope this helps you on the matter of pto’s and pump and roll . the simplest pto on our cars are power steering pump and alternator these are belt driven pto’s. even the transmission and drive train are pto’s. an other example is a riding lawn tractors cutting deck to farm tractor rear output shaft . Commercial applications are garbage trucks but some units can not engaged the pto in drive.
    Cement trucks, tow trucks, and those in the snow belt most state and local plow and spreaders run on ptos.

    In the fire service most standard fire engines pumps are a type of pto . At the rear of the drive engine to the drive transmission to a transfer case from there it either goes to the drive train or pump gear . As for pump and roll fire fighting units (wild fire units) there (for this) 3 basic types of pumping systems on these unit.

    There are auxiliary engine/self powered pumps from simple 50 gpm gasoline pumps up to 1500 gpm diesel powered pumps . The larger gasoline and diesel powered units can get certified the same as a standard fire engine . For brush truck/grass unit 4 types of basic pumps 1) low pressure /regular volume 2) regular pressure/regular volume 3) high pressure/regular volume 4)high pressure/low volume (like pressure sprayer pumps) also CAFS systems . The first 2 are generally single stage centrifugal pump the third multiple stage centrifugal pumps or positive displacement pumps and the fourth generally use positive displacement pumps are piston, diaphragm ,roller-tubes/vane or rotary gear pumps .

    Then the basic pto pump and roll units are powered off the truck engine. They are connected to what we call power several ways . 1)Belt drive like the power steering pump.2) the front fly wheel where generally where the belts are connection. A larger pulley is added . 3) if there is a gear (front fly wheel) behind the belt pulley access and away to bolt a the pump on to the engine. 4) connected to the rear engine fly wheel before the transmission 5) some truck manufactures have placed access ports on the transmission this is a connection point. 6) access port on a 4x4 transfer case 7) a transfer case is added between the transmission and rear axel 8) by extending or placing the front drive shaft

    The last type of general type of pump and roll system is a hydrostatic pump system this is a 2 pump system the first pump is a hydraulic pump that powers the firefighting water pump . The hydraulic pump is connection pretty much like the first type of pto pumps then powers the firefighting pumps . In my research I have found a company makes a hydrostatic pumps up to 1500 gpm .
    As with the 2 basic pto pump and roll pumping systems they have the same pressure/volume styles of pumps as the self powered .

    The last system is a pressure vessel tank system . This is generally for uses in the home/ranch/farm ,industrial ,and/or airport use. The are water system, compressed air foam system , wet chemical and/or dry chemical systems. The unit consist of a steel round tank in which water and/or foam or other chemical up to the ¾ of the tank and then it is pressurized or a 2nd tank of air, nitrogen , or co2 to charge the tank to the discharge point. Generally this system is the best compressed air foam system . But it has one major draw back when you are out of the pressurizing agent the system no longer works till it is refilled again. But it require the lowest system maintain.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to all the systems.

    Here is pro’s and con’s sheet I found several years ago from a company no longer in business

    Pump and Roll Capabilities For an interface type engine to function effectively, it must be able to pump and roll, or be able to flow water while the vehicle is in motion, and have a large GPM capacity for structural firefighting. Small skid mounted pumps are great tools for fighting grass fires, but the output volume of the pumps is very low. On the other hand, split shaft pumps on full size pumpers have the volume, but they can't pump and roll.
    For years, fire apparatus have used PTO (Power Take Off) driven pumps to accomplish this requirement. PTO units are attached to the vehicle transmission or flywheel and allow the pump to turn while the vehicle is stationary or traveling. This allows a vehicle to pump and roll. However, the pump pressure is tied directly to the engine RPM, which causes the nozzle pressure to rise and fall as the vehicle speeds up or slows down. This does not make for good firefighting, especially for the person on the nozzle.
    There are two methods of driving a water pump that provide a large volume output along with pump and roll capabilities that have proven to be very effective...engine driven pumps and hydrostatically driven pumps. Let's take a look at both and learn more about them.
    Engine Driven Pumps
    Just as the name describes, the pump is driven by an engine that is independent of the chassis engine. The pump is attached to the back of the engine, driven directly off the crankshaft. This combination is typically mounted to the frame rails just behind the cab, basically in the same location as a traditional cross mount pump.
    Small diesel engines work perfect for this application due to their low maintenance, long term durability and low heat output. Due to the close proximity of the water pump to the engine, the low heat output is critical in reducing the possibility of cavitation of the pump. In the past, when gas engines were used for this application, the engines produced an excess amount of heat, which could not be dissipated before reaching the pump housing. The heat would raise the temperature of the water in the pump, causing cavitation.
    Since the pump is driven by an engine that is separate from the chassis engine, it does not care whet speed you are traveling when you want to flow water. It can be a 2 MPH crawl, or a 50 MPH blast down the freeway, the water pressure will not change as a result of road speed. These pumps are typically set up with controls at the pump panel as well as in the cab, allowing the apparatus operator the ability to control the pump without leaving the drivers seat. The pump can even be fired up and ready to go as you are arriving on scene.
    With an engine driven pump, you have the option of pumps ranging from 750 GPM up to 1,250 GPM. These are rated fire pumps, capable of handling any structural needs you may have, and meeting ISO ratings for a structural engine.
    All the desired accessories that are installed on traditional pumpers can be installed on an engine driven pump, such as foam systems and electronic controls. Some manufacturers have even developed CAFS units that are built as an integral part of the engine driven pump, eliminating the need for a separate compressor motor.
    Hydrostatically Driven Pumps
    When you require a compact interface pumper that provides structural capabilities, yet you do not need to meet ISO ratings, there is no better system than the hydrostatically driven pumps.
    Hydrostatic systems are well known for their use in cement mixers and farm equipment, vocations that require the ability to provide constant component operation, regardless of engine speed. These systems must operate constantly, any time the vehicle is in operation, so long term durability is of utmost importance.
    A hydrostatic system consists of a swash-buckle type hydraulic pump that is attached directly to the engine crankshaft, which in turn spins a hydraulic motor that is attached to the water pump. Even at an idle, this type of system is capable of achieving 100 GPM at 100 PSI. Increasing the RPM increases the speed of the pump, increasing GPM and PSI accordingly. Typically to get the most out of a hydrostatic system, a two stage pump is utilized.
    This system works perfectly to provide a 500 GPM pumper on a short wheelbase chassis, since the system takes up little room and does not require a transfer case in the drive system.
    This is also one of the simplest pump systems to operate, since all you have to do is flip a switch and turn a knob and the pump is in gear and producing water. With in cab controls, the driver can operate the vehicle without leaving the cab.

    The state of California Fire Department has been using hydrostatic pump since about 1980’s in their model 05,14,15,and17. For more information check out Roscommon Equipment Center

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    Why not a Darley pto pump?

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    because basic pto pumps you are at the mercy of the rpm/speed of the truck. which is no problems when you are not moving you can ramp up the rpms/engine speed.. but when you are going do that field at 2 mph and trying to get a nice stream .. it is not going to happen..

    how ever with a pick up truck brush/grass unit a skid load unit is most likely the best .. for a larger permitted mounted system that does not need a ISO. Rating it is my opinion a hydraulic pump system is the best .. Only my opinion..

    The first posting in this section was asking about pumps and roll .. I was just showing the 4 type of systems ..

    Darley list 2 pumps that can be hydraulic driven pumps and here they are
    http://www.wsdarley.com/modules.php?...umps&file=pto1 (1 ½ AGH ,2 ½ AGH ,HH 500,and LSH 1000)

    http://www.wsdarley.com/modules.php?...umps&file=pto7 ( LDM-XHD-PTO it is an optional equipment)

    http://www.fire.ca.gov/php/fire_er_c...odel5hydro.pdf

    http://www.fire.ca.gov/php/about_con...ds/Model14.pdf

    http://www.fire.ca.gov/php/about_con...ds/Model15.pdf

    http://www.fire.ca.gov/php/about_con...ds/Model17.pdf

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    My question was to Firefighter1692. Why a Waterous and not a Darley pto pump. I would think if possible you would be better off with the same make. One could also ask, why not a Waterous main pump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfheib
    because basic pto pumps you are at the mercy of the rpm/speed of the truck. which is no problems when you are not moving you can ramp up the rpms/engine speed.. but when you are going do that field at 2 mph and trying to get a nice stream .. it is not going to happen..
    Yes it can work fine. What you do is spec a pump that is around 500 GPM and gear it to run 110 psi at idle. You also spec an internal relief valve on the pump (just like we have always had) and that way when the driver increases engine RPM the relief valve just dumps the pressure and the nozzle pressure remains relatively constant. With the infrequency that pump and roll is actually used, it sure beats maintaining a whole separate pump system.

    The problem of course is that you can't really do this with a full size 1000-1500 GPM pump. But generally speaking, a vehicle with that size pump doesn't need to be making mobile attack anyway. If you have to have it that way, then a small aux pump really is the way to go IMO. We have one of the Waterous aux pumps with the 3cyl Daihatsu diesels on our big dual purpose engine and it is sure a powerhouse. In fact when I pump a long term forestry hoselay I use that pump all the time instead of the midship and shut the truck engine off entirely. Sure cuts down on the noise and fuel consumption and worry about overheating when pumping a small amount of water, hour after hour....

    Birken

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfheibA
    hydrostatic system consists of a swash-buckle type hydraulic pump that is attached directly to the engine crankshaft, which in turn spins a hydraulic motor that is attached to the water pump. Even at an idle, this type of system is capable of achieving 100 GPM at 100 PSI. Increasing the RPM increases the speed of the pump, increasing GPM and PSI accordingly. Typically to get the most out of a hydrostatic system, a two stage pump is utilized.
    This system works perfectly to provide a 500 GPM pumper on a short wheelbase chassis, since the system takes up little room and does not require a transfer case in the drive system.
    This is also one of the simplest pump systems to operate, since all you have to do is flip a switch and turn a knob and the pump is in gear and producing water. With in cab controls, the driver can operate the vehicle without leaving the cab.

    The State of California Fire Department has been using hydrostatic pump since about 1980’s in their model 05,14,15,and17. For more information check out Roscommon Equipment Center
    The State of California hates their hydrostats, and is working toward getting rid of them. It is a large draw on an already overtaxed, underpowered engine, as they hydrostat is very inefficient. But mainly, it is highly maintenance intensive. They found it more cost effective to simply use a small auxilliary engine, since pump and roll is only done with one or two small hose lines.

    Birken

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    “because basic pto pumps you are at the mercy of the rpm/speed of the truck. which is no problems when you are not moving you can ramp up the rpms/engine speed.. but when you are going do that field at 2 mph and trying to get a nice stream .. it is not going to happen..”

    With a 1st gear ratio of 4.59:1 and the selectable low range rear end ratio of 7.39:1, we’re confident (at least mathematically) that we’ll achieve a ground speed of approx 3mph at 1100rpm. This speed will be further reduced by ground that is softer than pavement.

    The PTO pump will be geared (PTO & Pump Transmission) to produce 100 gpm at 100psi at 1100 rpm engine speed (the speed of the impeller is 4500 rpm). The Firefox bumper turret has a selectable flow that will most likely be set at 30gpm.

    On the PTO pump side (totally independent of the main midship pump through a check valves) is a Darley pressure relief valve that is adjustable (Darley says 75-800psi). This is important because when the driver goes above 1100rpm the additional pump pressure generated will be returned to the booster tank. This allows the driver to have his foot to the floor (2200 engine rpm and an impeller speed of 9000 rpm) and the pressure generated is still 100psi / 60gpm. Of course the pressure relief valve allows us to either reduce or increase the pressure to tweak the flow. This paragraph was worked out with the Waterous engineers.

    “My question was to Firefighter1692. Why a Waterous and not a Darley pto pump. I would think if possible you would be better off with the same make. One could also ask, why not a Waterous main pump.”

    We saw the Waterous pto pump in service, although it did not work well, due to bad gearing. Quite simply the truck moved too fast to be effective, and when the truck was slowed to a manageable speed the flow was not there.

    We studied the data of how that particular truck was designed, and discovered that with proper gearing it could be made to travel at a crawling speed (1100rpm engine speed). Conversely with the foot feed pinned (2200rpm), the pto pump impeller turned near it’s upper limit of 9000rpm.

    Now why Darley? It’s not a popular pump in this part of the world. We found that in regard to pumps it got into that Ford-Chevy-Dodge debate.

    Everyone that did not have a Darley could not tell us why, and everyone we talked to that did have one were happy with it. The US Navy uses Darley fire pumps.

    The feature we really liked with Darley was the check valve between the pump discharge and the main manifold.

    This did two things for us.

    First, since this is a rural responding truck that relied heavily upon drafting, the check valve means that the operator does not have to shut the discharge lines to prime the pump. While this may not be as important on initial setup, sudden loss of prime while members are in the structure needs to be dealt with quickly.

    Second, it isolates the main (Darley) pump from the main manifold when the PTO pump is using it (the manifold). We were not sure what the effect may be (seals. etc), of subjecting a pump to 100-400 psi from the other pump through the discharge and turning the impeller the opposite direction. So we just decided to isolate the two systems and not take any chances.

    Another feature we liked on the Darley pump was injection packing.

    There were other considerations, but this getting long……

    Hope this helps, stay safe

    Firefighter1962

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    Well it's finally here and in our initial trials the results have been spectacular and much better than expected. It's definitely head and shoulders above anything that we looked at and evaluated.

    We have control of ground speed down to 3mph on a hard surface (I anticipate even slower speed on slightly softer ground), pressure control from 30 psi to 200psi (up to 400psi for short durations), and variable flow control from 10-140 gpm (dependent upon pressure).

    Traveling at less than 5 mph we are able to lay down an effective fire stream for approx. 2.3 miles before having to refill (860 gal).

    When we replace our brush truck in a few years, we'll definitely use what we just learned.

    Stay Safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck1 View Post
    anyone out there have a truck capable of pump and roll?

    How is the pump driven - Transmission mounted PTO or Rear Engine PTO? or Independantly driven Pump (gas engine)?

    Pros ? Cons ?

    Pump ratings?

    I understand that it is not possible to get a 1250 US GPM with pump and roll capablility off a transmission PTO, as Allsion and Chelsea will not improve the horsepower and torque required to drive the pump. Going to a REPTO presents some problems as well.

    Open discussion...fire away... Thanx in advance
    Okay, my volly FD has 2 trucks capable of pump and roll.

    First is a brush truck with a seperate 70 gpm engine drive pump.

    Pros: Seperate engine means running the pump is independent of the vehicle engine and allows for pump and roll at varying speeds.

    Cons: Small engine, small pump, limited gpm. Although all of this is fine for a brush rig.

    Second is a 1000 gpm front mount pump on out pumper tanker.

    Pros: Bigger pump driven off the engine crankshaft pulley.

    Cons: Pressure is dependent on engine speed, vehicle speed affects this. Although if you need a burst of higher pressure push in the cliutch and buzz the motor up for the time you need more pressure.

    Remember I am a salesman so the following info is from the company I represent, HME Ahrens Fox. The RAT (Rapid Attack Truck is available with pump and roll from 500 to 1250 gpm.

    FyredUp

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