Thread: Pump and Roll

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    Default Pump and Roll

    anyone out there have a truck capable of pump and roll?

    How is the pump driven - Transmission mounted PTO or Rear Engine PTO? or Independantly driven Pump (gas engine)?

    Pros ? Cons ?

    Pump ratings?

    I understand that it is not possible to get a 1250 US GPM with pump and roll capablility off a transmission PTO, as Allsion and Chelsea will not improve the horsepower and torque required to drive the pump. Going to a REPTO presents some problems as well.

    Open discussion...fire away...thanx in advance

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    We got a skid-mount CAFS F550, it has its own Kubota engine.

    I've seen several 1250gpm pump and roll's including Attleboro MA E-2, which is a foam unit, 1250gpm top mount pump with a cab roof foam turret and in-cab pump controls for the turret.

    What do you want to do with your pump and roll? Is it primarily for brush work, or are you looking for like a big Class B foam pumper? I know most if not all ARFF trucks use a seperate engine for the pump(s).
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    I think PTO driven main pumps only go up to 1000 GPM as you probably know. However at 1000 GPM that is really straining the PTO and it has to be rebuilt after only like 100 or 150 hours as I recall.

    We use the water cooled 3 cylinder diesel pumps that are now so common. Our engine has the Waterous version with the 950cc Daihatsu engine, CDF is using some other manufacturer to retrofit some of their model 1s and 5s. Before they had Wisconsin air cooled diesels but they were getting so old they were hard to keep running.

    The downside is that it is a whole other engine to maintain, but it's not that terribly bad to do.

    Birken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire304

    What do you want to do with your pump and roll? Is it primarily for brush work, or are you looking for like a big Class B foam pumper? I know most if not all ARFF trucks use a seperate engine for the pump(s).

    it is primarily for grass fires / bush fires. I think the best solution is a seperatley driven pump, specifically for that use...it could have a remote start in the cab, and badda bing...you're good to go (as long as you have water)...but others don't like the seperate pump idea.

    Personally, I am down with the whole KISS theory, but others prefer to complicate things for some reason.

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    What is your taget GPM for a wildland fire. Wildland is our main fire and most of our wildland engines have 18 hp pumps (we have 4) that pump all the water we need for a wildland fire. A neighboring department has 18 hp pumps on their main structure engines to use to circulate water in the winter and for any wildland fire they can reach from the road.

    Most engines are already short on compartment space and long on weight but if you can find a spot I would use the extra engine and pump.

    Brad

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    Check Out Rosenbauer's Website.they Have A Pump That Is Pto Driven At 1250.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLONE2
    Check Out Rosenbauer's Website.they Have A Pump That Is Pto Driven At 1250.
    That is all well and good but the PTO rating of the transmission is certainly being overrated and it isn't going to last very long.

    Birken

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    Quote Originally Posted by canuck1
    it is primarily for grass fires / bush fires. I think the best solution is a seperatley driven pump, specifically for that use...it could have a remote start in the cab, and badda bing...you're good to go (as long as you have water)...but others don't like the seperate pump idea.

    Personally, I am down with the whole KISS theory, but others prefer to complicate things for some reason.
    why is an extra engine kiss compared to a pump driven from front or rear engine (not transmission) PTO? especially when you were initially asking for 1250 gpm?

    a pony engine to drive a 1250 gpm pump is not going to be compact or light, or inexpensive.

    a pto pump can be be engaged from the cab, also

    it may not be able to be engaged "at speed", but for brush fire work you probably aren't cruising along anyhoo.

    Do you have any contraints suck as cab or chassis type, realistic gpm requirements, etc?

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    There is no "simple" way to have a 1250 pump and roll engine. What I have concluded is the standard split-shaft pump (midship) plus a small engine driven booster is the "best" way. A small PTO driven booster is also an acceptable way.

    Birken

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirkenVogt
    There is no "simple" way to have a 1250 pump and roll engine. What I have concluded is the standard split-shaft pump (midship) plus a small engine driven booster is the "best" way. A small PTO driven booster is also an acceptable way.

    Birken
    I'll have to disagree - a front mounted pump can do 1250 gpm - as long as you have an engine rated for that use, like PTO drives, different engine manufacturers rate the capablility of their front hubs differently

    The rear engine pto is intriguing, I wonder how many engine manufacturers can accomodate this? I know mercedes provides front and rear engine ptos

    I'd like to see the Rosenbauer Timberwolf. I think it does 1000 gpm (or is it 1250) with a pump capable of pump and roll, and their pump also has the high pressure side built in, also.

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    We have a '74 GMC/Brucco that has pump and roll. How they did it was put a smaller pto driven pump in addition to the 1,000 GPM main pump. It has it's own tank-to-pump line and it pumps only the booster lines.

    I really don't see what the benefit of having anything other than a booster line with pump and roll. Granted I haven't seen everything, but the only thing I've seen we've needed the pump and roll for is grass fires, which it works great for. The driver just has to use the gas pedal to boost pressure. I don't see why a set-up like this couldn't be done today. 1,250 GPM seems like an aweful lot of water to be able to pump while you're rolling. The other alternative I guess is to release the brakes and make sure you're pointing downhill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    I really don't see what the benefit of having anything other than a booster line with pump and roll.
    The biggest feature is the ability to quickly put down a fire break along the edge of a road. Some interface pumpers are coming with small remote turrets on the front bumper for the purpose.

    The down side to the 2nd pump is simple: it takes up space, which is becoming more precious in modern apparatus.

    But you're right, you would not want or need a lot of water, if you could pump even 500gpm you'd be out of water pretty damed quick.

    A possible solution might be a seperate PTO for the same pump, say a hydraulic unit which turns the existing pump up enough to make 150psi@100gpm, though I've yet to see anything like this. Just a thought
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    I have a 2002 KME built on an IHC 4800 chassis that is a front pump Hale 1250. It runs off the front of the crankshaft through a driveshaft that goes through the radiator. Ugly truck but it works.

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    A hydraulicly driven pump makes the pump speed independant of the engine speed. I have seen a truck that has a hydraulic pump which is powered by PTO, then the hydraulic system turns the fire pump. It works along the same lines as a hydraulic generator. It is powered off of a "hot shift" PTO so it can be engaged at any time.

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    The problem with any PTO drive is that PTO's are accessory drives, meaning they are not designed for more than a fraction of the engine's rated HP (typical PTO used in generators etc., is 40-60HP, the largest might reach 100HP) where your typical pump needs nearly full rated HP of the engine to make its capacity. To transfer full HP you need a transfer case, which is rated 100%.

    Here's a possible solution (note, I am copywriting this idea as we speak) have a hydraulic motor on the water pump with a small PTO driven accessory drive for pump and roll, plus a large drive on a transfer case to meet pump rating.

    Hydraulics are inherently inefficient and you'd need more HP to drive the pump than a direct drive system, you'd also need to incorporate a large hydraulic cooler as transmitting 300HP through to the pump would generate a large amount of heat. But I believe its doable.
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    I'm not sure I get exactly what you are saying. You are going to have a "small drive" which is hydraulic of course but is your "big drive" going to be hydraulic or mechanical? As you state, hydraulics are inherently inefficient, which means that if the big drive is going to be hydraulic then the truck motor will have to be oversized quite a bit. Lots of departments are buying high HP but lots aren't. So that could be a problem. Also keep in mind engine cooling. If the drive is inefficient, but has a large enough cooler of its own, it will keep itself cool but the truck engine cooling system might only be designed to cool the engine putting out 300 HP to the pump as opposed to 500 HP going down the road.

    Birken

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    Both drives would be hydraulic to avoid having two drive systems, it would have two hydraulic pumps feeding one hydraulic motor (which drives the water pump).

    In my experience you'll get 95-80% of the power out of hydraulics that you put into it, so at worse to drive a pump that requires 300HP you'll need a 375HP engine.

    Engine cooling is not changed, if the pumper was designed to run a 375HP engine it'll be fine. The problem is the heat in the hydraulics. The 75HP lost in the above system is lost as heat, it'll require a considerable amount of cooling.

    I don't know if there are many applications of this amount of HP being coupled hydraulically, but I've seen smaller set ups including generator drives (if you have an Amps. Harrison, or Onan you've got a hydraulic coupled drive train) and fire pumps on boats. There are also some vehicles which use hydraulic drive.
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    [QUOTE=Fire304]Engine cooling is not changed, if the pumper was designed to run a 375HP engine it'll be fine. The problem is the heat in the hydraulics. The 75HP lost in the above system is lost as heat, it'll require a considerable amount of cooling.[QUOTE]

    It is changed in that it is a 375 HP engine, but a 1250 pump (for example) does not need nearly that much HP to drive it through a regular pump gear box. Suppose it only needs 300. Therefore the engine cooling system of the truck manufacturer only needs to reject enough heat to keep the engine cool at 300 HP when the truck is not moving. If the truck is moving then its engine can be loaded to the full 375 HP. This is more pronounced with some manufacturers than others as you might imagine.

    Birken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire304
    The problem with any PTO drive is that PTO's are accessory drives, meaning they are not designed for more than a fraction of the engine's rated HP (typical PTO used in generators etc., is 40-60HP, the largest might reach 100HP) where your typical pump needs nearly full rated HP of the engine to make its capacity. To transfer full HP you need a transfer case, which is rated 100%.

    .
    That's a generality, and mainly for transmission ptos

    there are also front and rear engine ptos available from some manufacturers

    BTW, in looking at Unimog literature, MBs engine is rated around 260 hp in the fire version, and front engine and rear engine ptos are rated at 204 hp

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    Briken, you're absolutely right, one would hope that the truck would be properly engineered, but as we all know that would be just a hope.

    pfd, wow, that's quite a PTO on the Unimog! I'm not that familiar with the Mog's drivetrain and I wonder if that's an "in drive" PTO (don't know the correct name for it) where you have to be moving to use it like a US military 5 ton? Those PTO's (US 5-tons) are designed for driving a trailer axle and are high HP rated.
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