1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp, New Jersey
    Posts
    863

    Post Laking FDNY Truck Maintenance

    Stephen Cassidy , said the FDNY maintenance program is a " disaster " . He said mechanics spend only two and a half hours per truck to get equipment back in service. A bronx ladder company was forced to use a 17 year old truck with bald tires & lights hanging by wires.The fire department brass defended itself, chief of operations Sal Cassano said we do a thorough , bumper-to-bumper safety check on a rig or we would'nt release that rig untill it was safe." The department also said it would be getting 12 new tower ladders & 8 new 100ft rear mount ladders in the next 6 - 7 months from " Seagrave to upgrade it's older fleet!..
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 04-04-2006 at 10:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    north east
    Posts
    26

    Default

    This was posted on UFA FDNY web site:

    For Immediate Release: April 4, 2006

    The State of FDNY Fire Trucks….JALOPIES
    New York City Firefighters are counted on by millions of New Yorkers to be their safety net in case of an emergency, but union leaders say New Yorkers are at greater risk due to the failure of basic FDNY equipment, including trucks that firefighters call Jalopies.

    “Clearly this is an issue of mismanagement by the Fire Department,” said Steve Cassidy UFA President. “Members of the greatest fire department in the world should not be driving around New York in Jalopies with equipment that fails when life is on the line.”

    Cassidy compared the regular maintenance checklist of an FDNY fire truck to that of a New York City Sanitation Truck. In a head-to-head mechanical check, a garbage truck gets a strenuous review that is 7.5 times more rigorous than for a life saving fire truck.

    The preventive maintenance checklist for New York City fire trucks are: 25 check list items for an FDNY Engine Company; 26 check list items for a Ladder Company; with FDNY provisional employee mechanics, encouraged to take no longer than 2 ? hours before getting an FDNY rig back out into the field.

    By comparison, the checklist for a New York City Department of Sanitation garbage truck is 189 checkpoints with a safety review by a Sanitation mechanics regularly taking 8 hours to fully inspect.

    “FDNY mechanics do not want to be in this position, but are mandated by management to churn these rigs back out into the field faster than time allows for them to be properly inspected,” said Mr. Cassidy. “These employees know that if they do not comply they can and will be fired by the FDNY.”

    This type of risk management utilized by the FDNY’s Fleet Services division compromises firefighters and civilians’ safety on a daily basis. The department’s Fleet Service Technicians are not to blame, but are being unnecessarily hampered by the lack of resources and bureaucratic red tape, that is more concerned with saving dollars than putting the best fire truck out on the street.

    “If this results in a fire truck being delayed in getting to the scene of an emergency or results in delays in getting in service once at the scene of an emergency the results can be disastrous,” he added.

    Recently the department also purchased new fire trucks that were found to have problems immediately off the assembly line. FDNY Fleet Services response to get the manufacturer to fix the non-operating fire trucks, was to order 12 more trucks from the same company, without putting it out for competitive bid.

    Mr. Cassidy suggested that common sense, good business practices and city’s bidding rules would lead one to think that the FDNY would utilize competitive bidding among the various fire apparatus manufacturers, causing them to improve the quality of the final product and compete on price, versus simply isolating the fleet to deal with only one product and one vendor.

    “We need to be asking what are the qualifications of the FDNY official directly responsible for decisions that result in tens of millions in taxpayer dollars being spent on contracts for new FDNY trucks, and the maintenance of older vehicles,” Cassidy suggested. “Even after Comptroller Thompson’s analysis last year, the more questions you ask of the department the less answers you get. There needs to be some accountability and answers.”

    He also pointed out that due to the inadequate amount of spares FDNY trucks, some fire companies who usually operate with tower ladders are using an aerial ladder trucks, which affect operations and the safety. With the overuse of old, spare fire trucks by the FDNY Fleet Services, he asked, what are standards for spare fire trucks, are there any age limits and oversight over their use.

    Last December the UFA called for an outside investigation of the FDNY’s procurement and bidding process for new fire trucks, after a Manhattan firefighter was ejected from an a fire truck dating back to the Koch Administration. To date, the City Council is the first to begin looking into this serious equipment issue.

    Given that none of the Comptroller’s recommendations from May of 2005 have been implemented by the FDNY and the practice of ancient fire apparatus has only worsened, Mr. Cassidy renewed his calls for an independent investigation.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,679

    Default

    Never thought anyone from FDNY would want to go with low bid.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp, New Jersey
    Posts
    863

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by blueflame
    This was posted on UFA FDNY web site:

    For Immediate Release: April 4, 2006

    The State of FDNY Fire Trucks….JALOPIES
    New York City Firefighters are counted on by millions of New Yorkers to be their safety net in case of an emergency, but union leaders say New Yorkers are at greater risk due to the failure of basic FDNY equipment, including trucks that firefighters call Jalopies.

    “Clearly this is an issue of mismanagement by the Fire Department,” said Steve Cassidy UFA President. “Members of the greatest fire department in the world should not be driving around New York in Jalopies with equipment that fails when life is on the line.”

    Cassidy compared the regular maintenance checklist of an FDNY fire truck to that of a New York City Sanitation Truck. In a head-to-head mechanical check, a garbage truck gets a strenuous review that is 7.5 times more rigorous than for a life saving fire truck.

    The preventive maintenance checklist for New York City fire trucks are: 25 check list items for an FDNY Engine Company; 26 check list items for a Ladder Company; with FDNY provisional employee mechanics, encouraged to take no longer than 2 ? hours before getting an FDNY rig back out into the field.

    By comparison, the checklist for a New York City Department of Sanitation garbage truck is 189 checkpoints with a safety review by a Sanitation mechanics regularly taking 8 hours to fully inspect.

    “FDNY mechanics do not want to be in this position, but are mandated by management to churn these rigs back out into the field faster than time allows for them to be properly inspected,” said Mr. Cassidy. “These employees know that if they do not comply they can and will be fired by the FDNY.”

    This type of risk management utilized by the FDNY’s Fleet Services division compromises firefighters and civilians’ safety on a daily basis. The department’s Fleet Service Technicians are not to blame, but are being unnecessarily hampered by the lack of resources and bureaucratic red tape, that is more concerned with saving dollars than putting the best fire truck out on the street.

    “If this results in a fire truck being delayed in getting to the scene of an emergency or results in delays in getting in service once at the scene of an emergency the results can be disastrous,” he added.

    Recently the department also purchased new fire trucks that were found to have problems immediately off the assembly line. FDNY Fleet Services response to get the manufacturer to fix the non-operating fire trucks, was to order 12 more trucks from the same company, without putting it out for competitive bid.

    Mr. Cassidy suggested that common sense, good business practices and city’s bidding rules would lead one to think that the FDNY would utilize competitive bidding among the various fire apparatus manufacturers, causing them to improve the quality of the final product and compete on price, versus simply isolating the fleet to deal with only one product and one vendor.

    “We need to be asking what are the qualifications of the FDNY official directly responsible for decisions that result in tens of millions in taxpayer dollars being spent on contracts for new FDNY trucks, and the maintenance of older vehicles,” Cassidy suggested. “Even after Comptroller Thompson’s analysis last year, the more questions you ask of the department the less answers you get. There needs to be some accountability and answers.”

    He also pointed out that due to the inadequate amount of spares FDNY trucks, some fire companies who usually operate with tower ladders are using an aerial ladder trucks, which affect operations and the safety. With the overuse of old, spare fire trucks by the FDNY Fleet Services, he asked, what are standards for spare fire trucks, are there any age limits and oversight over their use.

    Last December the UFA called for an outside investigation of the FDNY’s procurement and bidding process for new fire trucks, after a Manhattan firefighter was ejected from an a fire truck dating back to the Koch Administration. To date, the City Council is the first to begin looking into this serious equipment issue.

    Given that none of the Comptroller’s recommendations from May of 2005 have been implemented by the FDNY and the practice of ancient fire apparatus has only worsened, Mr. Cassidy renewed his calls for an independent investigation.
    I think that the FDNY did not utilize competitive bidding on 12 tower ladders because " Seagrave Fire Apparatus " is the only company who builds the Aerialscope apparatus that the department has been using since 1964 ! The other 100' ladders sould have been sent out to bid by any builder who meets the FDNY specs.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas,Nevada
    Posts
    1,012

    Default local politics

    It seems that it is local politics at its best with nobody stepping forward to rectify the situation and probably nothing will be done unless somebody dies and sues and by that time they will have figured out which way to point the fingers. The citizenry and public servants be dam**d and if someone does sue its' still only the taxpayers money thats' being wasted.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BVFD1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    434

    Default

    Mr. Cassidy suggested that common sense, good business practices and city’s bidding rules would lead one to think that the FDNY would utilize competitive bidding among the various fire apparatus manufacturers, causing them to improve the quality of the final product and compete on price, versus simply isolating the fleet to deal with only one product and one vendor.
    The spec would probably read something like this: "...shall have an aerial device constructed of a boxed boom..." "...shall have 1 downrigger at each corner of the apparatus and 2 scissor type outriggers in the middle..."

    Who could meet that besides Seagrave?
    FTM - PTB

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    You know, the solution is obvious. If they had only had bought Pierce, no problems

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BVFD1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    434

    Default

    Uh oh.
    FTM - PTB

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    IronsMan53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Halligan, oh Halligan... What have you done?
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan53
    Halligan, oh Halligan... What have you done?
    He inserted the pointy end of the tool into the crockpot o' crap to see what happens!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp, New Jersey
    Posts
    863

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by BVFD1983
    The spec would probably read something like this: "...shall have an aerial device constructed of a boxed boom..." "...shall have 1 downrigger at each corner of the apparatus and 2 scissor type outriggers in the middle..."

    Who could meet that besides Seagrave?
    The specs on the 8 rear mount ladders could have been met by any builder who makes a 100 " steel " aerial ladder with a fixed cab & chassis just like Seagraves builds for the FDNY !...

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BVFD1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    434

    Default

    Yeah I was saying that no one else builds anything that can match the scope.
    FTM - PTB

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    644

    Default

    It gets kinda annoying when people say the fire department "shoulda bought xyz truck?" The fire department I am with has never bought a fire truck. Our government has. Some pencil pushing bureaucrat, appointed by the mayor as director of purchasing makes the decision. We have a committee that can make recommendations, but the almighty dollar always wins. Ours has no idea what a fire truck is, as long as the bid meets spec low bidder wins. That's why my truck is back at HME/Smeal getting the chasis re-welded.

    Some can't understand that the fire department does not operate in a vacuum. Some one else has the money bag and the chief is appointed by a politician.

    Minor rant off.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BVFD1983

    Who could meet that besides Seagrave?

    American LaFrance
    IACOJ Member

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BVFD1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    434

    Default

    "OUTRIGGER CONFIGURATION: H-type, out-and-down style. 100' and 93', quantity of 4; 75', quantity of 2."

    "OUTRIGGER SPREAD: 100' and 93'-18' (mid-position), 16' (rear position); 75'-18'
    (mid-position). Stabilizing jacks, 2 mounted below front bumper."

    That is nothing like one downrigger on each corner and two radial type outriggers in the middle.
    FTM - PTB

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    No but I am sure ALF can meet thier specs and needs. As far as the boom goes. The LTi that is used by ALF performs the same as the Baker, but is not of solid construction.

    As far as Engines go.....I know for a fact they can meet FDNYs specs. Granted the tester that was used by FDNY (E-34) post 9/11 was less then stellar, they have taken that info and reworked thier design. They have made "city service" rigs since that have performed quite well.
    IACOJ Member

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BVFD1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    434

    Default

    Yeah but what if their spec specifies 4 downriggers?
    FTM - PTB

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The North East
    Posts
    489

    Default

    I think Vinnie's point is that another company could build a truck that functiopns they way FDNY uses them. I'm sure FDNY firefighters care more about functionality than name plates on the grill. If you spec a scope (four downriggers) than thats what you'll get every time.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Woodbridge Twp, New Jersey
    Posts
    863

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    No but I am sure ALF can meet thier specs and needs. As far as the boom goes. The LTi that is used by ALF performs the same as the Baker, but is not of solid construction.

    As far as Engines go.....I know for a fact they can meet FDNYs specs. Granted the tester that was used by FDNY (E-34) post 9/11 was less then stellar, they have taken that info and reworked thier design. They have made "city service" rigs since that have performed quite well.
    The American Lafrance fire apparatus company built a Eagle pumper for the FDNY 3 years ago that went to a engine co. in " Hells Kitchen ". Manhatten engine co. 34.
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 04-17-2006 at 07:07 PM.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BVFD1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    434

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    I think Vinnie's point is that another company could build a truck that functiopns they way FDNY uses them. I'm sure FDNY firefighters care more about functionality than name plates on the grill. If you spec a scope (four downriggers) than thats what you'll get every time.
    I have never read their specs, but maybe that is what they spec?
    FTM - PTB

  21. #21
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,643

    Default

    April 17, 2006 -- The aerial ladder for FDNY Ladder 19 malfunctioned at a raging Bronx blaze - almost a month after the firefighters union complained to the commissioner about the rig's repeated mechanical failures.

    The Uniformed Firefighters Association claims the truck's ladder has failed four times in the past six months - including one life-threatening instance in February, when it allegedly broke down with a firefighter trapped in a six-alarm inferno. That version of events has been disputed by the department.

    "A firefighter or a civilian is going to get hurt or killed" because of the ladder problems, said UFA Bronx trustee Eddie Brown. "This rig is a lemon!"

    During the latest mishap, firefighters from Engine Co. 50 and Ladder Co. 19 responded to a burning, vacant building across the street from their Washington Avenue firehouse on Thursday afternoon.

    Fearful there could be squatters trapped inside or on the roof, the firefighters tried to turn the rig's lever to extend its 100-foot aerial ladder. But the device stalled.

    The fire was eventually brought under control, with one firefighter suffering minor injuries unrelated to the malfunction.

    But the union claims that at another fire, on Feb. 1, the ladder jammed as a firefighter was stuck inside an inferno on Gerard Avenue in The Bronx.

    Ladder 19 was unable to reach the firefighter and another rig had to come to his rescue, Brown said.

    UFA President Steve Cassidy wrote to Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta demanding the truck "be permanently taken out of service."

    Still, the FDNY refutes the union's account of the February fire, saying the apparatus was "nowhere near" the firefighter.

    "We looked into it, and it's not true," said FDNY spokesman Frank Gribbon. "[Ladder 19] was on the other side of the building, and it was not near [the firefighter]. He was in no danger."

    But Gribbon acknowledged that the rig has experienced "intermittent trouble" and has been taken out of service multiple times for testing.

    "It's one truck. We have more than 400 pieces of equipment out there," he said. "This is a particularly rare occurrence."

    The ladder's reported defects come amid the FDNY's ongoing battle with the UFA over what the union calls faulty rigs.

    In September, WCBS/Channel 2 reported that brand-new rigs were breaking down and that the maintenance company, Seagrave, had fallen badly behind schedule in repairing them.

    The FDNY insists that Seagrave has sped up its service.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    Chauffeur6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Metro NY
    Posts
    613

    Default

    The whole situation, aside from the clear and obvious danger it poses, is just so sad. Sad that all the bureaucratic city agency/government BS would overshadow the recommendations of the guys that know BEST...the firefighters and lieutenants/captain of the company actually OPERATING the pieces of crap in question. Honestly, the system of thinking is all backwards...it shouldn't be the hierarchy at headquarters or city hall that decide when a piece of equipment needs service and is unreliable or dangerous enough to take OOS. That decision should ideally be left to the guys in the field. Of course, were it only a perfect world.

    In our dept, any member can take a piece of equipment OOS for cause, drivers can take apparatus OOS for cause, no questions asked, no "just who the hell are you to do that?" either. That's not to say it's not investigated, of course it is, but there are OOS report sheets that are filled out, and an officer is always notified ASAP of the situation. In the case of small equipment, there's usually a spare, so that's not such a big deal. In the case of apparatus, if the problem can't be rectified in house, and it's serious enough to impact safety or proper operation, it's left OOS and an appointment is made for service ASAP. If necessary or warranted, AMA is put in place. It's comforting knowing that everyone's input is important and meaningful enough that our hierarchy trusts us all as adults to know when something isn't right, and doesn't make us jump through hoops to do the right thing.

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BVFD1983
    I have never read their specs, but maybe that is what they spec?

    The spec is written that way b/c that is Seagraves design. We could care less about the outriggers, all our Ladders have different systems anyway, (TL, Arieals, Tillers) Now...what the real reason we have Seagrave is b/c they have the Baker Ariealscope. The job and members love the scope, and have been using is since the Macks. The performance of the scope operates how we think TL should operate. We use TLs differently than most places. The job tested every TL available at the time and they found that the Mack/Bakers (1980's) were the best for us. Then Mack went out of business, and seagrave became the next best thing.

    The ability to use the bucket from the street, shortjacking, whipping the nozzle, large exteneded bucket decking, are just some of the features that we require. Until ALF came out with thier new TL design, Seagrave were the only ones who could accomadate us. I have personnaly demoed the new ALF TLs, (outside the job) and I am very impressed with it, as were members of FDNY TLs Companies. The LTi ladder they use has been redesigned to perform like if not better than the Baker/ArielScope. The only difference is that the boom is not a box construction.

    BTW the job also has a Spartan TL in service. Its with TL-53 in City Island. It also has a Baker Scope on it.
    IACOJ Member

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    The spec is written that way b/c that is Seagraves design. We could care less about the outriggers, all our Ladders have different systems anyway, (TL, Arieals, Tillers) Now...what the real reason we have Seagrave is b/c they have the Baker Ariealscope. The job and members love the scope, and have been using is since the Macks. The performance of the scope operates how we think TL should operate. We use TLs differently than most places. The job tested every TL available at the time and they found that the Mack/Bakers (1980's) were the best for us. Then Mack went out of business, and seagrave became the next best thing.

    The ability to use the bucket from the street, shortjacking, whipping the nozzle, large exteneded bucket decking, are just some of the features that we require. Until ALF came out with thier new TL design, Seagrave were the only ones who could accomadate us. I have personnaly demoed the new ALF TLs, (outside the job) and I am very impressed with it, as were members of FDNY TLs Companies. The LTi ladder they use has been redesigned to perform like if not better than the Baker/ArielScope. The only difference is that the boom is not a box construction.

    BTW the job also has a Spartan TL in service. Its with TL-53 in City Island. It also has a Baker Scope on it.
    What's the difference between the ALF mid-mount platform and any other manufacturer's mid-mount platform? I can see how the Aerialscope is different but the ALF mid-mount platform doesn't seem much different from any others.

    Also, how is the Spartan chassis holding up in NY? I have long been a fan of Spartan and think they make a great chassis.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefSquirrel
    What's the difference between the ALF mid-mount platform and any other manufacturer's mid-mount platform? I can see how the Aerialscope is different but the ALF mid-mount platform doesn't seem much different from any others.
    Ability to flow at zero angles, and negative angles, going above horizontal (flowing water), and whipping. Most manufacturer's say that this is all bad for the ladder. But that's for thier design's. LTi and Baker have figured out how to beef up thier platforms so they can perform in these maners.



    Also, how is the Spartan chassis holding up in NY? I have long been a fan of Spartan and think they make a great chassis.
    It is in a place that doesn't run much, about 100 runs a year. Most TLs do 2500 runs. Its a small Island in the East Bronx, Accessable by bridge and boat only. It did get a work out last month at the Yacht Club fire and worked just fine. It works for City Island.
    IACOJ Member

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Firefighters Betrayed
    By Nail200 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 259
    Last Post: 07-07-2007, 03:11 PM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 10-28-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-31-2005, 07:44 AM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 10-15-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-18-2005, 07:43 AM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 01-23-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-24-2005, 08:28 AM
  5. World Of Fire Report: 12-05-04
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-23-2004, 08:32 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register