1. #76
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    Bones:

    No, I cannot. However being that much further removed from the station adds an additional step in the "auto-pilot" response. Like I said in an earlier post, I have an occasional beer or two. I have had one beer, been paged out for a call, and started for the door before the light went on that I had been drinking and to not respond so I stayed home. If I had been at the station, I would have been that much closer to responding and there would have been less in my way to prevent getting on a truck. The temptations and pressures to get on a truck after "just one" would be too much for most of us to resist (IMHO).

    I agree with firemanjb: Image, perception, and reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Can you, without a doubt and with 100% certainty absolutely declare that those responding from home/bar/restaraunt/etc had not been drinking AT ALL?
    Of course not.... that's impossible.....But what CAN be done is with 100% certainty absolutely declare that those responding were NOT drinking at all at the firehouse.

    This ain't about drinking and responding, that's a no brainer....It's about the intelligence of keeping alcohol in a firestation. What's more is it's about a department going to the public for a referendum to keep this antiquated practice continuing. In this day and age when so many FD's have to beg for donations because they're govt. won't fund them appropriately, why in the world would anyone want to do anything that even has the perception of diminishing the professionalism we work so hard to attain.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietone
    I agree with firemanjb: Image, perception, and reality.
    The image of how things are in our society is split in half. Recent Presidential elections have reflected this, and so was the referendum concerning the storage and consumption of alcohol on fire district property. Our community was split right down the middle. This clearly indicates that not everyoneís perception is the same, and therefore; not everyoneís reality is the same.

    To be prized, more than perception, is discernment; which gets to the core of the issue. Perception is easily disregarded as a matter of opinion, six of one, and half a dozen of another.

    Whose perception do we accept as reality? Which half of our society do we accept as molding reality for the rest of us?

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    However being that much further removed from the station adds an additional step in the "auto-pilot" response.
    True, but looking at it from the evil side, seeing who is at the building drinking gives you the ability to say "You don't go." to that guy/girl.

    As to the public's perception...if their perception of you is that you hang out drinking at your firehouse...your battle is long lost. You need to get out in the public and show them what you do for them.

    Hey, look at this, a discussion about alcohol that does not have people going crazy on each other. Good Job.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    RoadsideRay:

    I disagree. In your community of Palmyra, the perception is that it is OK to have alcohol in the firehouse until it is proven otherwise. In the firefighting community, this perception has been proven to the contrary. It is not OK to have alcohol in the firehouse.

    IMHO, to have this even brought to a referendum by the fire department and to have over half of your community in favor of it casts a black cloud on the perception of the entire firefighting community. That is a reality.

  6. #81
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    You know; I've been looking at this issue for several years. I have watched innocent kids killed by drunk firefighters and yeah; many more have been killed by non-firefighters. But we are the guys who are suppose to show up for a call sane, sober and in control. When someone else's world has literally crashed to the ground, WE are the shoulder that the public lays their head upon for re-assurances. We are suppose to be what's RIGHT with the world and not what's wrong. Is that too much burden for you to bear? Because if it is, you have no business on the fire department.
    If the community that you serve believes that it is OK for you to have alcohol at the fire station, if your community believes that it is OK for you to respond to calls after you have been drinking and if your community believes that it is OK for you to wear a shirt with your department's/their communities' name on it when drinking at the bars or at the conventions that you attend; that will ALL change quickly as soon as a husband or boyfriend gets drunk and stays out till 2:00 am and is caught with their best friend in the back seat or someone wrecks the rig going through the living room of their house or one of their firefighters shows up on the 6:00 news getting handcuffed for drunk and disorderly.
    If your insurance company is good with it, then baby; I want to party with you.
    You want to be in the liquor business, then buy a tavern.
    You want to be in the firefighting business, then dump the alcohol.
    I am not a puritan. I have not been nominated for sainthood.
    And I don't have "dumbass" tattooed on my forehead either.
    This argument insults the intelligence of good hardworking volunteers everywhere.
    IMHO.
    CR
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  7. #82
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    Default This makes me sad

    I am a member of Palmyra Fire Dept and have been for 6yrs now. First I would like to say until you walk in my shoes don't judge me. I am a mother of 2 kids 6 & 8, and a step mom of a 10, 14, and 19. I am a wife and I pay taxes just like everyone else. I became a basic in 2000 for the following reasons, to know what to do when something happened to my children and to help my community. I then went to Intermediate but missed it by 1.5% on the test. But that didn't stop me from going for IV Tech 6 months later. I have taken every test, refresher, any extra classes, and meetings. My life for this VOLUNTEER service takes up alot. But I chose that, not you. I choose to go on a call at 2 am, I choose to go and miss X-mas morning with my family because someone else needs me. When I joined this department we had a different Chief, who retired and moved on to another dept. That is when a new chief became voted in by all member's that were there and in good standing. We vote once year and the body determines who is appointed to what. Again the same cheif was voted again. (Someone did run against him.) Why was he voted on? Because he did a damn good job in running the department. We are a close knit family and will and do ANYTHING for each other. We have stood by each others side through everything and we will continue during this bashing we take now. We did not put ourselves out on the front page!! The media and a few people with nothing better to do did. If it werent for any of the people in this world that dedicate their time and skills where would we be? The society that is being created by simple minded people continues to get out of hand. Media takes things far out of reach and glamorizes or destroys what is really the problem. I hope people will get the facts straight and ask us ourselves. OUR department has rules and regulations that we abide by everyday. I commend anyone who does what they do for their fire department. It is not any easy job. And to the person that said we hardly have any calls cause we are a small town, you need to get your facts straight also. We run about 300 per year. Our town has 1500 people, that is not including our surronding area we picked up a couple of years back. So please take a moment and thank your lucky stars you have a department that cares for their community.
    Proud to be a member of Palmyra Fire

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadsideRay
    To be prized, more than perception, is discernment; which gets to the core of the issue. Perception is easily disregarded as a matter of opinion, six of one, and half a dozen of another.

    Whose perception do we accept as reality? Which half of our society do we accept as molding reality for the rest of us?
    I am not sure what you intend by discernment, but I can assure you that perception, while based on opinion, is still a critical issue.

    As for whose we accept? Fair question...my take on the vote?

    1/2 of the people think it is unprofessional for the FD to have alcohol; 1/2 of the people don't think the FD is professional, so they don't care if they have alcohol.

    Am I right? I don't know...but I do know that the career fire service does not accept alcohol in the firehouse and many in the volunteer service do not as well. Overall, your firefighting brethren find alcohol in the firehouse an unprofessional stance. While you may not agree with their beliefs, I'd suggest it is the general stance.

    Can you harm your image by banning alcohol from the firehouse?

    Can you harm your image by keeping alcohol in the firehouse?

    I believe that only one of those questions can be firmly answered "yes." Is it worth it?
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by crystalemt76
    I am a member of Palmyra Fire Dept and have been for 6yrs now. First I would like to say until you walk in my shoes don't judge me. I am a mother of 2 kids 6 & 8, and a step mom of a 10, 14, and 19. I am a wife and I pay taxes just like everyone else. I became a basic in 2000 for the following reasons, to know what to do when something happened to my children and to help my community. I then went to Intermediate but missed it by 1.5% on the test. But that didn't stop me from going for IV Tech 6 months later. I have taken every test, refresher, any extra classes, and meetings. My life for this VOLUNTEER service takes up alot. But I chose that, not you. I choose to go on a call at 2 am, I choose to go and miss X-mas morning with my family because someone else needs me. When I joined this department we had a different Chief, who retired and moved on to another dept.
    Please understand, nearly everyone else on this forum has the same story. Some of us are from communities extremely similar to yours. The question I can't understand (probably cuz I'm not so smart) is this..... With all the controversy that the subject of alcohol in the firehall brings to this fourm of your fellow brothers and sisters, along with 1/2 of your community.....why would you want to continue with it? If the FF's took the beer outta the station would there be a public outcry saying "Oh my Gosh!...They took the beer out of the station!....please put it back in so we can feel safe?" My major misunderstanding with this whole issue is this.....We are in a time of dwindling public resources and increased public scrutiny.... why would anyone waste so much political capital on such a non firefighting issue as fiighting to keep and consume alcohol in a publicly funded fire station?..... That's what I don't understand.

    The sky will not fall if depts remove the alcohol from a firestation, but for a large segment of the poplulation you serve, it may fall by keeping it in.....is it REALLY worth it or are there bigger issues to expend our capital on?

  10. #85
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    Default Wake up folks the times have changed

    Drinking at the firehouse was once accepted practice....Both in career houses and the smallest volunteer outfits. Now it isn't. Is that really so tough to comprehend ?
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    No comment...sorry for the intrusion.
    Last edited by thratz; 04-15-2006 at 10:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    You know; I've been looking at this issue for several years. I have watched innocent kids killed by drunk firefighters and yeah; many more have been killed by non-firefighters. But we are the guys who are suppose to show up for a call sane, sober and in control. When someone else's world has literally crashed to the ground, WE are the shoulder that the public lays their head upon for re-assurances. We are suppose to be what's RIGHT with the world and not what's wrong. Is that too much burden for you to bear? Because if it is, you have no business on the fire department.
    If the community that you serve believes that it is OK for you to have alcohol at the fire station, if your community believes that it is OK for you to respond to calls after you have been drinking and if your community believes that it is OK for you to wear a shirt with your department's/their communities' name on it when drinking at the bars or at the conventions that you attend; that will ALL change quickly as soon as a husband or boyfriend gets drunk and stays out till 2:00 am and is caught with their best friend in the back seat or someone wrecks the rig going through the living room of their house or one of their firefighters shows up on the 6:00 news getting handcuffed for drunk and disorderly.
    If your insurance company is good with it, then baby; I want to party with you.
    You want to be in the liquor business, then buy a tavern.
    You want to be in the firefighting business, then dump the alcohol.
    I am not a puritan. I have not been nominated for sainthood.
    And I don't have "dumbass" tattooed on my forehead either.
    This argument insults the intelligence of good hardworking volunteers everywhere.
    IMHO.
    CR

    HMMMMMMMMMMM.....Good thoughts CR.
    Last edited by thratz; 04-18-2006 at 01:05 AM.

  13. #88
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    wow, I cant believe some of the crap I have read in this thread!!! But anyhow, I would hate to see how some of you would react when you saw the TOBACCO free facility signs posted on all of our doors!!
    Local 216
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    Default ???

    O.K. i agree with you crystalemt76. and im not judging you or your dept. or the community, however i still dont see how the community could allow the firefighters have beer at the fire station. volunteer or not. we still encounter the same as paid or bigger dept's. meaning that someone elses life could be in one of their (intoxicated) hands. Wether it's extrication or rescue or just a structure fire. my bottom line. Beer should not be allowed at the station. volunteer or not!! We are liable for others life, property, and if we go to a call intoxicated thats just a combination for disaster. if you wanna drink go home and turn of the pager.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilson10
    wow, I cant believe some of the crap I have read in this thread!!! But anyhow, I would hate to see how some of you would react when you saw the TOBACCO free facility signs posted on all of our doors!!
    Been there....done that. Nobody quit the dpt. Life goes on.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersonch
    Brad,
    Don't worry...we didn't fire you when you "promoted" yourself to "Captain" of the department

    C2
    I don't know where that came from, but claiming that I was a "Captain" was not something that I ever did.

    Brad

  17. #92
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    My volly FD took beer out of the station years ago. It was a regular staple in the fridge for decades. WE have even in the past 5 years or so moved our annual party out of the fire house to a restaraut to eliminate the appearance of drinking in the firehouse.

    Okay there is my background with drinikng in the fire house.

    Here is my perception of this particular situation.

    1) It was a heated referendum with almost a 50/50 split. Is losing 50% of your community's support worth it over having beer in the fire house?

    2) Whether you have tight controls on the beer or not, now half of your community believes, whether correctly or not, that firefighters are dinking in the fire station and then going on calls.

    3) IF an incident occurs where a firefighter is involved in an accident and has been drinking, or is injured or killed and has been drinking, it won't matter if he sat in the bar all day the assumption will be he was drinking at the fire house.

    4) Being a volunteer firefighter does NOT give you special rights to drinking in a public building. Particularly when half of your community says it doesn't like it. If you think you deserve special privilaeges for being a volunteer firefighter I question your motivation for being there.

    Agree or disagree this is one man's opinion.

    FyredUp

  18. #93
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    Once in a while when somebody is upset they say things that they shouldnít. My comments last week in this forum were just that. I want to publicly apologize for anything awful that I said about the members of the Palmyra Fire Department and most importantly the Chief. The damage has already been done and to any member of the Palmyra Fire Department that I might have hurt, Iím truly sorry and regret my actions. Because I have seen members of [fire department(s)] drink alcohol, then go on calls I get especially upset over this issue.

    When I make a mistake I admit to it, adjust fire and move on. Iím not the type to dodge the issue when Iíve done something that I know to be wrong. Honesty and integrity are two of my personal traits that I deeply value. My comments last week undermined those very qualities, which I hold with such high regard.

    At the same time, despite my apologies for the personal comments I made toward members of the Palmyra Fire Department, I will not apologize for my opinion that any alcohol in ANY firehouse, even in Palmyra, is not right. It will NEVER be right. Yes, I enjoy going out and having a cocktail now and then (more like a hundred last week in Mexico) but I donít drink at the firehouse and if Iíve been drinking at all, I donít go to fires. Period.

    Thereís more to this alcohol vote than what the story implies, but Iím not going to even try and explain any of that. Iíve dug myself a deep enough hole.

    Maybe some day the members of the Palmyra Fire Department will forgive me, but for now itís doubtful that Iíll ever be welcome at the Palmyra Fire Department again.

    Stay safe and sober out there.

    Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by andersonch
    c.) And their taxes would be so high that no one would be able to afford to live in the town anymore!!!!!
    Urban legend.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    scfire86, just curious, but how much of a tax jump would you find acceptable?

    My population is ~8000. Town is 1.5sq miles, 75% residential, %20% commercial, 5% boardwalk tourist area. Current daytime response from FD is 1 engine, 1 truck, each with 5-7 guys. We don't run EMS. Approx 250 calls per year. How many paid guys would I need to equal that response and how much would that cost annually, figuring a salary of $30k? No, we are not a district that already collects a fire tax. We get less than $70k from our town's overall budget to operate on.

    I don't think it's an urban legend at all.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    scfire86, just curious, but how much of a tax jump would you find acceptable?

    My population is ~8000. Town is 1.5sq miles, 75% residential, %20% commercial, 5% boardwalk tourist area. Current daytime response from FD is 1 engine, 1 truck, each with 5-7 guys. We don't run EMS. Approx 250 calls per year. How many paid guys would I need to equal that response and how much would that cost annually, figuring a salary of $30k? No, we are not a district that already collects a fire tax. We get less than $70k from our town's overall budget to operate on.

    I don't think it's an urban legend at all.
    Well Bones. I don't know since I don't live there. But I do know a locale in CA can either contract out to the County or the State. If that option is not available to your city I would suggest you take it up with your representatives and ask why they are not willing to provide that type of service. They are getting a free ride as long as someone is willing to do it for free.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    Hey, Wisconsinites;
    Is Monroe Fire School still THE social event of the year?
    Watching the folks roll into the campground and tapping their first keg.
    And I keep hearing that Monroe is still one of the best schools to go to, but nobody ever says why.
    Is it the training or the "social" aspects? Or are we calling that "networking" now?
    CR
    Hey Chief...

    The Monroe Fire School is a product of the Northern Illinois Southern Wisconsin Fire Protection Association and there are as many, if not more FIB's at Monroe for the fire school as cheeseheads.

    And frankly, thanks to some of your fine Illinois firefighters, who may or may not have been drinking, the campfire rules were changed for everyone. They couldn't seem to understand why about 20 pallets was too big of a campfire. Even after being asked multiple times to put it out. Eventually a rig was brought in to put out the "campfire".

    I for one, and many others, go to Monroe for the classes. Some admittedly go for the partying. Some go for both. The quality of the classes continues to improve and the number of students climbs every year. I would recommend that you actually attend the school before voicing a second or third hand opinion about it.

    FyredUp

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Well Bones. I don't know since I don't live there. But I do know a locale in CA can either contract out to the County or the State. If that option is not available to your city I would suggest you take it up with your representatives and ask why they are not willing to provide that type of service. They are getting a free ride as long as someone is willing to do it for free.
    No, County and State are not options as there is no County/State fire departments. And my town is providing the best service for an affordable amount. What incentive would they have to pay for 3 or 4 shifts worth of 10 guys each at a time? You state an "urban legend" that people would have tax hikes. I just asked you to justify that statement a bit.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    What incentive would they have to pay for 3 or 4 shifts worth of 10 guys each at a time? You state an "urban legend" that people would have tax hikes. I just asked you to justify that statement a bit.
    Saved lives and property for a start.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86
    Saved lives and property for a start.
    So is that a shot that we don't save lives and property? thanks.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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