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    Post New Pump Operator Needs Help

    I recently completed the Pump training school at Bucks County Fire Academy and am looking for any material that you see as the best for new pump operators. I just purchased the IFSTA manual because the manual I received at the academy simply explained how the inner workings of the pumps worked, not how to work the pumps. We learned very little regarding friction loss and required GPM, etc. I have been around for 11 years and do know a little, but am a great book learner and am looking for any other manuals or pieces of advice you have for me.

    Thank you

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    This is what you should do...

    1) Read the book...
    2) Put it back on the shelf
    3) Find the oldest pump operator you know, then work them. They can give you more background on the whats, whens, wheres, and whys, then most books ever will.

    Just my "narrow minded" opinion
    "If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."
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    Default Trust me.

    You will pleasantly surprised how easy pumping at an actual fire scene is after what you had to learn in class. Stay calm, stay focused and it all will be a breeze when you get your first "big one" on the panel. Our Fire Apparatus Engineer course here was tough for me because I hate math. But IMHO, the class room is much harder then actually flowing water. Get a little cheat sheet, it will tell you what your friction loss is etc. And finally, did I tell you to relax? You will do fine.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    I took the same class and the instructor knows alot about pumps but litle about teaching. I know how change a valve or impeller but if you asked me the friction loss of 5" I will look at you like you have 3 heads. Is the IFSTA Manual a good book to read? All information is welcome.

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    i used the IFSTA book last year in a D/O class i took and i thought i was a good book. yes, it went in to some things that were kinda over the top i belive, but it has alot of good info.

    you can buy all the books and training aids out there, but you arnt going to learn it and remeber it until you go out and accually do it, pump, draft, etc. like someone else said before, find someone on your dept that knows what they are doing, and have them help you out with a few things.
    Your a daisy if you do.

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    Default Tips for thought

    All of the pump manufacturers have manuals for their pumps. Many of them, and appliance companies too, have quick reference charts you can get. I do believe, however, that when you get out and start working with the pump, supplying hoselines and LDH, you will quickly realized how un-important technical data and charts really are. You will develop the necessary skills by doing it realtime. As one other post stated, find an experienced pump operator that has some real working time on the panel and pay attention. You will quickly get to the point where it becomes second nature. Good Luck.
    Last edited by cachmann; 04-07-2006 at 08:05 PM.

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    Seltzer27e....

    I agree with much of what was said...read the books. By the way one of thebest for understanding nozzles and hose and lfows in a book called "Firestream Mangaement" by Dave Fornell.

    But I also agree with latch onto the best pump operator on your FD and learn from him.

    Determine your FD's hose sizes and flows required and make yourself a cheat sheet.

    Good luck,

    FyredUp

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    Seltzer27e & PENNDEL:

    Was your instructor an older man with the initials TR??

    We had some of our new drivers go through a pump class at the Berks school and that gentleman came here with basically the same results. When I asked why they didn't get friction loss I was told that they had to come back to Pump 2. Sounded to me like he just wanted to set up another class to teach and get paid for.

    Back to the original question: Practice, Practice, Practice. I read the IFSTA manual in order to take the Pumper/Operator Certification and found there was more info in there than you really need. They have one chapter on placing apparatus which is not really your responsiblity but rather for an officer to decide. If you are the first apparatus on the scene with no officer you have to worry about where you should go but do you really need to know where to park the ambulance?

    Good luck.
    Steve Dragon
    FFII, Fire Instructor II, Fire Officer I, Fire Appartus Driver Operator Certified
    Volunteers are never "off duty".
    http://www.bufd7.org

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    I agree totally with these posts...find a good pump operator in your department and practice practice practice with him....he can show you the little cheats. Every truck is the same, but different....he can teach you the little quirks about specific trucks.

    I learned in house by doing....then i took the class....I definetly learned alot in class, but it was easier for me to pick up on stuff in class, being able to relate or apply them in my mind.

    As far as flows...i carry two little laminated cards. One has GPM of smooth bore tips, and the other has friction losses. Both cards come from Hale Pumps...and were given to my by my PUMPS I instructor.

    I cant tell you enough though, practice. Know your controlls...especially if you have an electronic engine control governor. When the S*** hits the fan, knowing your controls will help alot for you to be calm - smooth.

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    The instructor's initials are JG past chief of rosyln mont. co.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PENNDEL
    The instructor's initials are JG past chief of rosyln mont. co.
    Not who I was thinking of but obviously the same problem with the county'f program. The other instructor brought that to Berks.
    Steve Dragon
    FFII, Fire Instructor II, Fire Officer I, Fire Appartus Driver Operator Certified
    Volunteers are never "off duty".
    http://www.bufd7.org

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    Some of the better pump operators I've worked with don't necessarily do well in a class setting. The formulas and things you learn in class are like everything else - if you don't use it regularly you'll forget it. The class room should teach basic concepts and encourage students to find ways (formuals or tricks) to operate pumps that make sense to them. Ones they'll remember at 2 in the morning when you've got 3 or 4 lines off.

    In our area I've seen water supply problems at multiple alarm fires to many times to count. The reason is always the same - 1000' of supply 5" line connected directly from a hydrant - then everyone wonders why they can only get 600 or 700gpm.....hmmm.... This is why the "basic concepts" from the classroom are important too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vapor00
    In our area I've seen water supply problems at multiple alarm fires to many times to count. The reason is always the same - 1000' of supply 5" line connected directly from a hydrant - then everyone wonders why they can only get 600 or 700gpm.....hmmm.... This is why the "basic concepts" from the classroom are important too.
    Saw this at a recent fire in a neighboring township that we responded to on mutual aid. They had two trucks go past the closest hydrant and then ran their 5" from a 3rd truck down a side street 1 1/2 blocks to another hydrant. (Now they cut off 2 roads when they could have run the line in the grass from the first hydrant to the scene.)

    I helped the operator disconnect the line from his bed and hooked it up to his discharge. Thinking he was going to hook the truck up to the hydrant I walked back the line getting out the kinks. I heard a loud clank and thought he dropped his line while hooking to the hydrant. 10 minutes later I found out the noise was when he disconnected the line from the discharge and hooked directly to the hydrant. We found it out when his chief called him to increase the pressure but he said he couldn't since he was running straight from the hydrant.

    Meanwhile his truck was sitting along side the hydrant running wasting fuel and polluting the air while doing absolutely no good to the scene.
    Steve Dragon
    FFII, Fire Instructor II, Fire Officer I, Fire Appartus Driver Operator Certified
    Volunteers are never "off duty".
    http://www.bufd7.org

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    I have a pump operators book from a class that I took about a year ago. A lot of info in there on calculating friction lose. It also gives you diiferent methods other then the equations. Let me know if you like a copy of the book sent to you.
    Chris
    soda@stpk.us

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    I am no Chauffeur/Driver/Motor Pump Operator, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express Last Night.....

    Friction Loss: 1 3/4" line- friction loss is about 45 lbs per 100 feet

    2 1/2" line- friction loss is about 15 lbs per 100 feet


    If the Line is an 1 3/4" and they are using one of those terrible adjustible nozzles (thats a whole other issue) I was told to use the 2-2-2 rule:

    200 Feet of 1 3/4 with the adjustible nozzle provides about 200 GPM if you pump at 200 PSI. (ideal nozzle pressure for the combination nozzle is 100psi)
    200ft of line= 200GPM flowed= pump at 200psi

    Now for the real line: 1 3/4" with a NICE SMOOTH BORE 15/16 tip can produce a beautiful, deep penetrating stream with only 50 pounds of pressure at the tip. This way you can pump at a lower pressure and still get the GPM on the fire. With about 90 pounds on the tip using a smooth bore you will get about 250 GPM, almost as much as you would with a 2 1/2" line at 50 pounds. It is harder to control but a good alternative to a 2 1/2" if you dont have the manpower to maneuver the big line but want a similar flow.

    Basically remember what you want at the tip (100psi for combination knob and 50psi for a smooth bore) and know how much line has been stretched. Add pressure for the type of knob, the length of hose and friction loss, add about 5 pounds for each story (say if you're stretching up the stairs a few stories) up and add 5 pounds for every appliance (gate, water thief, etc...) on the line.

    Remember, I am no pump operator but hopefully this helps a little bit. And if I am wrong, someone please correct me. And remember to thank the guys on the truck for gaining entry, venting for you, and finding the seat of the fire!

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    Go to all of your FD's Pumping drills, I know you have all heard this before, but, Practice makes perfect.

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    Firehouse.com drill downloads
    These are in the training section under drill download

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=15&id=48866
    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=15&id=48864

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    Delmar has a pump operations book that is really good, that is the book that we used in college. I also have some worksheets from that class if you would like them, i'll see if i can get them copied into a word document.

    Another thing you can do is go to places/preplanns throughout your response area and look at where hydrants, stand pipes, and such. then figure how much fire flow you would need on them buildings, and how much pressure you would need to feed the standpipes in them buildings. Most places in our fire district we don't need to run the pumps more than 175psi, unless someone desides to run the wrong sized lines like a 3 inch when we should have layed out a 5 inch.

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    Go assist with the annual pump testing of the trucks. You will know how the truck acts, sounds, etc and you will see the flow rates and calculate them. And you will do it multiple times if you have multiple trucks... rarely do you have any modern truck running "at capacity" at a fire. If you do, you gotta a fire!

    It is more of an art form than book learning. It is not a perfect world so the gasket not being the greatest, keeping water moving in freezing weather, etc is a learned in the field type thing.

    Understand the therory of operation from the books and then do the field work.

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    Look at using the rule of hands. This is good for 2.5" & 3". You might be able to use it on 1.75" hose to.
    Make up cheet sheets for preconnects.
    Know your friction lose for appliances.
    When going up in elavation or down you need to compincate your pressure.
    Fog nozzles need 100psi minumum to operate properly. Start with 100psi them figure the true setting. Worst thing for you to do is over pressure your hoses. This can cause firefighter much problem if hose gets wild. If at all possible put an engine at the hydrant for relay. I can fax you info if you needed it. Know your pump panel be capible of trouble shooting your engine. If you incounter a problem stop and retrace your steps. good luck it's fun.

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    Exclamation New Name, Same Dummy

    Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately, we don't have too many old pump operators to latch onto around the station, but I will keep my eyes open. After actually running the engine at a fire scene, I was surprised that I remembered and didn't mess up (at least while anyone was looking.)

    The IFSTAT manual is okay, better than what we received at the fire academy. Now, I usually just pull the engine out onto the ramp and start flowing water out of the back of the station when I get the chance.

    I still would rather ride in the jumpseat!

    Thanks again

    By the way, have any of you every lost your password, reset it, and the one Firehouse.com gives to you doesn't work? That is why I had to change the log in name.

    Seltz

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    Default where

    Where can I find this book?? I've looked all over with no luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Seltzer27e....

    I agree with much of what was said...read the books. By the way one of thebest for understanding nozzles and hose and lfows in a book called "Firestream Mangaement" by Dave Fornell.

    But I also agree with latch onto the best pump operator on your FD and learn from him.

    Determine your FD's hose sizes and flows required and make yourself a cheat sheet.

    Good luck,

    FyredUp

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    I know that it is minimal, but what is that actual formula for 5" friction loss?
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
    IACOJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaterbryVTfire View Post
    This is what you should do...

    1) Read the book...
    2) Put it back on the shelf
    3) Find the oldest pump operator you know, then work them. They can give you more background on the whats, whens, wheres, and whys, then most books ever will.

    Just my "narrow minded" opinion
    No truer words have ever been written!!!!!!

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    If you are a big preconnect department just learn all your basic pump pressures for each set-up. Makes life really easy when you have a job.

    Easiest cheat that I found for 2 1/2 is the "drop ten" method.

    Example 350 gpm through 100 feet.

    350 divided by 10 = 35

    35-10= 25 psi FL per 100 feet
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

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