Forcing Entry Through The Lock

[Irons6789]

We recently had a vacant building we got to play around in. I have a forcible entry question that arose from the training we did. Here is the size up: There were numerous outward swinging doors on the building. There were metal doors, metal frames, with rabbetted jambs and masonary walls. The K-Tool would not on the locks. After practicing many conventional techniques we decided to try something else. Lets forget that other methods (attacking hinges, cutting door, breaching walls) are options we have. Has anyone tried the through the lock method in a commercial style building such as this? It was much more difficult than we had originally figured. Compared to going through the lock in a residential building, this took much more time and force to get through the lock. Does anyone have any experience with this technique in this type of building? Also, for whatever reason, lets say that conventional entry techniques did not work. Just a crazy idea: Is it possible to use the bunny/rabbit tool on an outward opening door? Wouldn't it just cause the weakest member to give in (which would be the door in this case)? It sounds crazy, but could it actually work?

[RFDACM]

Just thinking loud here, but wouldn't using the rabbit tool on an outward swinging commercial (non wood-no give) door prove ineffective. By the time you got any spread the pressure to the sides would prevent you from opening it out wouldn't it? If it did come, the force may cause a rapid acceleration of the heavy rabbit tool which can cause a nice mark when it contacts you with any speed.

With the flush mount locks did you try blasting the lock through with the pick on the halligan? I've also seen somewhere the use of a cordless drill and metal bit to be used just off the upper center of the key hole.

[Irons6789]

Well, I was wondering if the door would give or warp at all with that technique. I could see where it is dangerous and even if it worked, I guess you would lose control of the door. But, if the door absolutely needed to be forced do you think it would work at all? And yes, we used the pick of the halligan to go through the cylinder but it did take a lot more effort than required to go through the cylinder of a residential door.

[RFDACM]

You mentioned some other methods but wanted to ignore them? Given the option of the rabbit tool vs. anything else on the outswing door, I'd go with a K12, or slice-pack (torch), or attack the hinges. I guess these methods all may be questionable for an alarm activation with no repsonsible party available. My dept. always gets in and checks out the building. This may be delayed while an RP responds from elsewhere when there is no occupancy and nothing visible (closed business). But at sometime before we leave the scene we will get in and look around. When businesses establish alarm systems we instruct them to create a list of RP's that calls int he nearest first and explain that we may force entry if their response is too slow and we're not comfortable with the conditions. We also push for Knox Box's so we can just key in. We still get an RP to ecure the building. In the worst cases we force entry and have to secure the building in the presence of PD when an RP doesn't show. We've gone so far as to have a PD officer respond to an owners home in another town after she hung up on the dispatcher requesting an RP. Next time we'll defineately consider trying the K12 entry!

[firefiftyfive]

It is my understanding that the rabbit tool can be used on an outward swinging door. It may not pop the door but it should give you enough of a purchase to get in there with the Haligan. However on the same token, there are many ways to create a purchase with the haligan so basically there is no need to be using a rabbit tool on an outward swinging door!

[gunnyv]

I have used a rabbit tool on an outward opening steel door that had no accessible hardware. It worked, but it bent the crap out of the door. You are not going to be able to secure it afterward.

[PFDTruck18]

I have used a rabbit tool on an outward swinging metal door with metal frame and "well protected" hinges. It worked, but took to long for my liking. It would have been almost as fast to walk the block or so back to the truck and grab a saw. It did bend the crap out of the door, but thats not really my concern.

As the K tool applies to thru the lock methods. I will say this about that. The K tool works wonders on private dwellings with newer locks that arent designed the same as a commercial lock. A commercial lock is much more apt to use set pins to hold the cylinder in place instead of some cheap brass screws which are easily forced with the K tool. You seem more apt to pull the face off and not pull the cylinder. I have been advised by some of my officers when faced with commercial doors, the thru the lock methods that work the best are the pike end of a halligan and a flat head axe.

[ADSNWFLD]

This situation is what the "A" tool was invented for. If the "K" Tool doesn't work, because the lock is flush mounted or is so far out it exceedes capabilities of the tool, then switch to the "A" Tool.
Conventional forcible entry is option 2 or 1 depending on your district. We have some doors that are just key in the knob with a separate deadbolt.
A good halligan is the key here.
My 3rd choice is the forcible entry saw with an aluminum oxide blade.

http://www.firehooksunlimited.net/entry.html about a third of the way down is the "O" Tool ("A" Tool)

[ALSfirefighter]

ADSN you took the words right out of my mouth. I have had great success with the A or "officers" tool in these situations. The only thing I would like to add is that we prefer the longer vs. the shorter A tool for better leverage.

[Lieut706]

Outward opening metal doors, my first thought would be to try to drive the hinge pins out, then the door is free. "Secured" hinges as mentioned prior, if unable to get the K tool to get a bite would probably see me trying to drive the cylinder thru using the pick of the halligan in the key hole and striking it with the axe or maul. As I dont usually have a drill or K-12 handy they would be farther down on my list. Something to think of is that even if a metal door is in an occpancy, if the wall is sheet rock, like in an office condo type building, punch a hole in the sheetrock near the door nob and reach thru the wall to turn the nob, who knows you might get lucky. Athough it kind of goes against the idea of thru the lock to prevent extra property damage.

[MattyS]

Lieu-

A percentage I got from a class I took:

Total damage done by firemen when doing FE and Vent: 10%
Total damage done by fire, smoke, and water damage: the other 90%

I got no problems doing what I have to, to get my tasks done. Thats why there's insurance. And if they don't have insurance, well,.

'Sides, 'rock repair is probably cheaper than a commercial lock anyways.