New Truck

[skipatrol8]

The department in town is about to get $475,000 to replace a Mack MB/Continental 1000/1500. We have mayve 20 hydrants in 32 sq. miles. As we currently use a 2000 1500/4000 tanker, 1990 1000/2500 tanker, 1989 1250/1000 rescue pumper, and a 1978 400/1000 brush truck. we have very few natural water sources and the department has been unable to successfully lobby for hydrants for over 15 years. Does anyone else have this situation? What did you end up purchasing?

[berkut]

With that kind of budget, definitely get CAFS....it'll stretch what water you already have on wheels a long way. Everything else depends on the makeup of your area. And how much mutual aid water you have. With 6,500+ gals already on wheels I'd go with something smaller that's easier to get around....maybe 1,500 gals, lots of foam and lots of hose for driveway lays, etc.

[Ledebuhr1]

I agree, With CAFS and that much water you can knock down a lot of fire. Are you looking at a tandem axle pumper? A truck like Fallon NV has might be something to look into. Lots of water,Foam and CAFS. one truck can knock down a fully involved structure and still have water left over.

I sould also ask what types of buildings do you have in your district?

[NewJerseyFFII]

Check out the " Advantage Apparatus LLC. " web site they sell rebuilt Foam/Tanker trucks at a very good price , and are available on new ( Spartan or HME ) chassis !...

[skipatrol8]

Our area is 65% wooded area, with the remainder almost entirley made up of homes with a smattereing of small businesses. there aren't a lot of natural water sources. the few subdivisions around have dry hydrants. however, the majority of homes have very long and narrow driveways. Mutual aid isn't particulary helpful, as there is only on other tanker (2500) in the surrounding area. We do have a truck in the neighboing town with 5000' of 5" LDH. Not that it matters, but we are town that is heavy into giving mutual aid in the event of the rare big one.

[skipatrol8]

After doing some simple math, i realize that we have exactly 10,300 gallons on wheels. Is that much really neccesary for a small town? we only have 1-2 major structure fires yearly. would a hose wagon w/ a big pump be better? Our ladder has 3000ft. LDH (i think), as it has no pump or water.

[Ledebuhr1]

You have more water on wheels that most departments. All you need is 1-2 pumpers with Foam, or better yet CAFS, and port-a-tanks. Tankers dump load of water into port-a-tank then go and re-fill.
Do you often run out of water at a fire? Do you have a manpower shortage? I am wondering what your greatest need is for this apparatus. I dont think I would worry about water with 10,300gal.

[skipatrol8]

There is no man shortage--there is a waiting list to join the department. Often too many volunteers respond...there isn't enough cab space. I should clarify the amount of water...that includes the engine to be replaced. to my knowledge, there have never been water shortages at fire...but we only have 1 or 2 a year. Brush-fires are a concern, but we have 2 4WD vehicles, one 400/100, and one 250/300.

[dday05]

skipatrol8, I would have your truck comm. look heavily into a CAFS unit for your new rig,we put it on our pumper and it proves itself time and time again every time you use it. During the time that we spent building the truck we kept tossing around the idea and the price of the CAFS was a big shock but we went ahead and had it installed on the rig. The price I believe of that was a $40,000 option but well worth it. If you have as much water as you say you do you'll probally never have to call for mutual aid again.If you go with the CAFS unit.There's a fd website in the vol forum that shows them knocking down a fire with cafs and I'll look it up for for you. Do your homework on your truck, and if you're really worried about water, look into the cafs unit.BE SAFE!!

[aerialguy1]

I seconded the comments by others that based on your requirements and operations take a good look at a CAFS system for your new appartaus as it's becoming increasinly more popular with both Volunteer and Career FD's.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

With that much water and hose on wheels your attack piece should be exactly that, an attack piece. Something that can hold 1500-2000 ft of LDH to make those long driveway lays while being small enough to get down them. Around here everything is concrete because asphalt doesn't last in TX heat, and the only long driveways we have to deal with are gravel. When I was running up north we had the long asphalt driveways and most weren't wide enough or supportive enough to handle an aerial so we ran that exact scenario: attack pumper down the driveway laying a line, everything else on the street.

If you can get your aerial down there and set it up for aerial ops, and you're not short on people so you can get the trucks there almost at the same time then less hose on the new unit and have the aerial lay the line for it right behind it.

CAFS is a no-brainer, and once you're well-practiced pumping and attacking with it you can gt up to that 10-1 advantage over water, so a 750 tank will be more than enough since you have a lot of other water on wheels. And if you don't have enough room to carry everyone on the other trucks, then you'll want at least 6 in the back (8 person cab). 10 person cabs are really crowded if you have any people with any size to them. Make sure you get a large enough area with 6, otherwise those facing each other will be knocking knees the whole time.

One thing to look at is the age of your units and their replacement time frame also. Since the 4000 is only 6 years old that's plenty for a first out water supply unit in a CAFS operation, and the 2500 is 16 years old so depending on the abuse that truck takes may influence your tank size on this unit also. Going to a 1250 or 1500 tank on the new truck will be pushing length and weight limits on some smaller roads and driveways, and I don't think it's necessary considering the other hydrants with wheels that you have.

- Brian

[skipatrol8]

abuse isn't much of a problem. the only reason we are replacing is because this engine is used as first response to all calls, despite being 29 years old. Our rescue pumper is much better suited...its a mystery to me. that and the lack of actual fires...the 400 is used 4 to 6 times yearly...its pretty though.

[neiowa]

After doing some simple math, i realize that we have exactly 10,300 gallons on wheels. Is that much really neccesary for a small town? we only have 1-2 major structure fires yearly. would a hose wagon w/ a big pump be better? Our ladder has 3000ft. LDH (i think), as it has no pump or water.

Yes CAFS for real world effectiveness!!!.

How many major structure fires are you going to have tomorrow, this year, next year, in 2010? Plan for the fight you may have.

You need the ability to lay in LDH down those narrow driveways. Qty of LDH is based on your calculations based on doing some preplans. Maybe its 500ft, maybe it's 5000ft. Your rural water dump point is then at the public road (out of the way vs in the building yard). You have an attack piece at the fire and a water relay piece at the dump site.

Water supply? Does your state mandate ISO points for CAFS? Only a few that do (like Texas). You need a water supply plan that maximizes your ISO score in town (you did not give details there) and in rural area. What is the fireflow requirement for each area? Using your equipment and reliable mutual aide can you tanker shuttle to meet fire flow from available hydrants/supply? If not you need more tanker capacity, either on this truck or another truck/tenderss. Perhaps assume a 90% solution (unlikely you can meet 100% of the fireflow if you have a couple of jumbos). You LDH also may have a role in supply by laying in from your dyrhydrant/water source. There are depts in the US laying many miles of LDH/relay pumping rather than tanker shuttle (good safety and operating cost argument). IF you are carrying 5000ft of LDH then that certainly reaches some of your building sites. Draw goodeggs around your water sources. For your jumbo users, can you get local pond/sources installed to remediate some of these problem areas?

You can work the gpm for each tender (ISO 35mph, 90% of H2O counts). Maybe you need 20000gal on wheels or maybe 5000gal. Most likely CAFS gives you nothing in ISO score so you need water plan (tanker/LDH).

We also get little assistance from mutual aide as they all run tiny tenders (<2000gal). We assume a rural fireflow req of 1000gpm and max shuttle of 6mi one way. The few jumbo users are working with us to create pond storage/dry hydrants so we don't have to address 2500+gpm fireflows.

[skipatrol8]

foutunatley, we have no jumbo users, unless that is you count freaklishly large homes. These homes have pools, so that sort of helps. We have a big tamker shuttle issue. There is natural water on the whole east border 90% acceseeible, and some in the center of town. there is a large percentatge (30%) farther than six miles away. Even with mutual aid, we can only run a tanker shuttle of a total of 9000 on three trucks. thats not enough sometimes. Using engines as shuttles is ineffective.

[dday05]

I agree with skipatrol8 that engines being used for tanker shuttle opps. are ineffective. We had a neighboring dept come, for a large mutual aid fire a few ago and we had about 25-30 tankers there and they got in the rotation I let them dump once and they really @#*^#! up the shuttle so when they got back to the scene from the fill site I took them out of the rotation and they sat there during the duration of the water shuttle.

Anyways on the vollie dept. I run with since we've had our CAFS truck we use more water filling the LDH than putting out the fire(we still utilize our rural hitch just in case things go south,wich is a good thing ,you always got to cover your @#*)that's in our area that we cover though. When we go to our neighbors we are usually providing manpower and using alot of water,but they have been lately having us pull a few lines off the truck with foam,wich makes our job easier.Contact Waterous and they will send you a video I believe.BE SAFE!!

[skipatrol8]

Now that money is approved by the town...
It will be a 1500/2000 with CAFS
as this will run on every call, what would you sspec it with (more specifically). I am not particulary knowledgable when it comes down to things like hose and ladders.

[Ledebuhr1]

I would spec Speedlays, remote controll deck gun, pre-connect in front bumper 1 3/4 line, hydralic pump and reels to power Jaws, roll up doors, light tower and hydralic generator. For $475K you should get one really nice pimped out rig.

Will this be on tandem or single axel? any idea of a builder they have in mind?

[skipatrol8]

it will be a tandem pierce. it will not be a rscue as we alreday have a rescue pumper...strictly attack

[dday05]

We have a top mount pump so we had trays made up that slide into the spot where the hose goes, underneath the levers an such on the pump panel we have 3, 1 3/4 hose areas and in each spot we have trays that we can pull out after were done and load the hose back in and then place it on the truck.We also have where the walkway is 2, 2 1/2 hose lays and the walk way is a big lid that lifts up so you can load the hose back up,we put a catch on the back of the cab so the lid could be held up during this operation.We ran a 2 1/2 to the front bumper and put 100' 1 3/4 in it. Something to think about also is maybe getting your suction hose with storz ends on it,that sounds like the way to go these days.BE SAFE!!!

[tomwnh]

skipatrol8, I have a form that many departments have found useful in spec'ing a truck I could email you if you provide me with your address. It's about 11 pages of fill in the blank or check off a box and will walk you from the front bumper to the rear step. Let me know if you would like it. He is an email address that might be easier for you to request it.


tomwnh@yahoo.com