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    Post E-One & Sutphen get competition ?

    The Pierce Fire Apparatus Co. has a new 100- foot Heavy Duty Aluminum Aerial Ladder that delivers a dry tip - load rating of 750 - pounds with a additional 100 - pounds capacity at the tip for fire fighter equipment. The new ladder is rated to 500- pounds while flowing up to 1500 gallons per minute !...

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    Golly, and after how many decades of telling fire departments that aluminum was not a good choice for aerials?

    Things that make you go hmmmmm?

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Golly, and after how many decades of telling fire departments that aluminum was not a good choice for aerials?

    Things that make you go hmmmmm?

    FyredUp
    You are 100 % right , it only took " Pierce " 25 -30 years to figure out the Aluminum ladder construction idea . Maybe the " Seagrave " fire apparatus LLC will be the next one to build a Aluminum Ladder. It's all about the big bucks $$$$$.

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    You beat me to it FyredUp. I agree 110%. For 20 plus years E-One has been the dolts and idiots using inferior aluminum to build aerials instead of the far superior steel. LOL. Now, when it is convenient they build aerials out of aluminum. And it is an E-One design to boot. LOL. Ah, the irony.

    Maybe ALF/LTI will figure it out. They built stainless aerials, maybe they'll switch to aluminum also. LOL.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Well, ya have to admit, it was only a matter of time. As soon as Pierce released "their" 75' aluminum stick, you had to figure that a 100' was somewhere in the works. The way things are working, I'd bet that this time next year we'll be discussing the release of a Pierce aluminum platform aerial or mid-mount.

    Aside from buying E-One out or, gasp, lowering their prices, adding what their competition already offers is about the only way they'll be able to get any more new customers.

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    The way a person makes in the business world is to do what the competition does, but only better. If they build one a month, which they will, that's one that E-One, and Sutphen isn't selling. Pierce is the number 1 seller of trucks, so why not build on that.

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    I read the posts on here about the change to aluminum after years of opposing it. One factor nobody has mentioned is this: Since Pierce has become a subsidiary of the Oshkosh Company they have had to do things that maybe they don't like. The Contender model out of Bradenton, Florida is from an Oshkosh facility already in existence before the purchase of the Pierce Company. So the new owners said they wanted a low-end custom apparatus out of their Florida factory. They got it. A Saber cab on a basic design with some options.

    Some of the early deliveries were less than what Appleton was noted for in quality so the purchasers were unhappy with the Bradenton works. Evidently things have improved down that way. Possibly the desicion on the new aluminum 100 'was forced by Oshkosh. Regardless, the past claims were purely Pierce as regards aerials of steel versus aerials of aluminum. Now with Oshkosh running the works Pierce must eat some crow because that is what the new owners demand in order to market the new products they feel will put them at the cutting edge and claim that portion of market share as their own.

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    Is thier anything wrong with alumimum? The advantage I see it has over steel is less weight. Im sure it heats up faster too.

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    Aluminum fatigues. (Think about that next time you're in an airplane!)
    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1
    Is thier anything wrong with alumimum? The advantage I see it has over steel is less weight. Im sure it heats up faster too.
    There are many old timers out there from vol fire departments who say that the strongest aerials are made of " Steel " . They would never buy a aerial made from " Alumimum " , Our Mack Aerialscope is built from Alumimum with 3 of the last boom sections & platform , the first main boom section & turret assembly are steel.

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    There's oldtimers out there from career departments that say the same thing.

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    Default Aluminum fatigues. (Think about that next time you're in an airplane!)

    The best thing to do is write all the major airline companies and discuss with them the reasons why should build their planes from carbon steel and weld the joints. If they listen, see how high you will climb and what happens when it does not flex. Think about that !

    There is room for both types of construction in the fire service, each provide unique design methods. I am sure we will see a lot of cloning in the near future in the quest to eliminate the competition.

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    Is there really something wrong with aluminium or is steel prefered because of tradition? Have all these old timers ever used an aluminum ladder? Or do they believe in the phrase, "Thats the way its always been, so thats they way it always be".

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    Everyone says Pierce copied an E-ONE design, but their 75 has a 850 tip capacity vs. 550 lb. on the E-ONE.

    The Pierce 100 has an 850 lb. tip capacity vs. 800 for a CR100 and 500+whatever the equipment allowance is on a HP100.

    So while you bash Pierce for "copying" the E-ONE design, you fail to mention that the Pierce ladder actually has a higher capacity.

    Oh well, neither can match a Sutphen 75.
    FTM - PTB

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    I agree that once Pierce came out with their 75' model, the 100' had to be close behind. I would imagine that within the next year or two, you will see a Pierce 100' aluminum platform.

    I just returned from FDIC and found it interesting that this is the first time in the fire industry that if you wanted to see an aluminum aerial ladder at the FDIC, you had to go to the Pierce booth, not E-One! Hmmmmmm, interesting. All E-One had for aerial devices were three Bronto's in varying lengths. Why were there no aerials?? I hope they are not banking their revival on the sales of Bronto's. We'll be adding their name to the History books as well.

    The Pierce 100' aluminum looked nice. The outrigger stance is only 12' shoe-to-shoe. it also has a removeable egress tip. Outrigger controls are very simple and there is no pinning of the vertical outriggers. It had a stainless steel body with plenty of compartment space.

    As for this aluminum vs. steel discussion, blah, blah, blah. FDNY has been using aluminum Aerialscopes for over 30+ years without any failures or damage from heat. If you want an aluminum aerial device, then great, now you have two choices. If you want a steel device, then great, you have multiple choices. They both have their limits and pros & cons.

    Let's move on to a discussion that will affect ALL OF US, like the '07 EPA engine requirements. Enough of the aluminum vs steel. It's getting old!!!!

    Just my .02 worth!

    Stay low & Stay Safe!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bgcjmc
    If you want an aluminum aerial device, then great, now you have two choices.!!
    Three...
    FTM - PTB

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    Ok, I'll bite - what is the third? Please don't tell me Sutphen. If that is the answer, then ket me re-phrase my statement by saying "for rear-mount aluminum aerial devices, you now have two choices".

    I really don't count Sutphen a player in the aerial ladder market. Aerial platforms, yes.

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    Why not?

    http://www.sutphen.com/Sutphen%20gallery/gallery.htm

    There seems to be quite a few Sutphen ladders in service.
    FTM - PTB

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    Exclamation Sutphen Not A Player????????!!!!!!!!

    Wow,

    That has to be the most ludicris statement I have read on these forums!! So you think that having the HIGHEST RATED aerials out there excludes them as a player??? Again - WOW!! So, having a record of producing 0 (yes, thats a zero) aerials that have dropped firefighters from the sky exludes them as a player?? WOW!! Not saying that that Pierce and E-One don't build great aerials, but your statement sounds completely biased and mis-informed. Not a dig on you, just a suggestion that you think - then type.
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    I think what bgcjmc is saying is that Sutphen builds mostly Towers - not straight stick aerials. Yes, they do build two different 75' straight sticks and the 104' but most of the trucks I have seen from Sutphen are platforms.

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    1983,E-one design, not an E-one clone.Subtle differences in material,beam thickness and bracing can all contribute to the increased tip loads. And it comes back to the same old stuff.They're all nice when they work and it's all junk when it doesn't.Do I care Pierce went aluminum? Nope,although I do find it amusing. I find most of the later generation aerial devices to be suitable for getting me off the ground,however as a "groundpounder/knuckledragger"(Engineman)from way back I prefer it if the "chimps"take care of the off ground work.Work off an old Thibault or a Pirsh one day(if you can find one)you'll think this new stuff is the neatest thing since sliced bread,Now try to finance it. T.C.

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    Lightbulb Hmmmmmph---

    Another thought on the new brand "P" aluminum ladders -
    Remember that the rating is at a 2.5:1 safety ratio
    Sutphen has a 3:1 safety factor

    So if math serves me - A Sutphen 75' ladder with a 2.5:1 ratio would have a tip load of -------- 1200lbs dry and 900lbs while flowing 1500 gpm at any angle. Food for thought friends!!!!!
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by efd281
    Another thought on the new brand "P" aluminum ladders -
    Remember that the rating is at a 2.5:1 safety ratio
    Sutphen has a 3:1 safety factor

    So if math serves me - A Sutphen 75' ladder with a 2.5:1 ratio would have a tip load of -------- 1200lbs dry and 900lbs while flowing 1500 gpm at any angle. Food for thought friends!!!!!
    Both apparatus builders E-One & Sutphen make very good aluminum ladders and platforms , fire departments now have three builders to pick from when bidding on a new aluminum ladder truck with many different chassis & prices .The KME Fire Apparatus co. now uses 100,000 psi steel for hand rails , diagonals , and rung rails building the strongest aerials in the fire service. Kme Aerialcats are designed to operate in real world conditions including dynamic loads , 1/4" ice , 50 mph winds , and the dead weight of the ladder !...
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 05-03-2006 at 08:14 PM.

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