SCBA At Every Fire?

[WBenner]

Fryed Up I agree 100% I realise these guys must be following SOGs but come on guys Use that air when its needed. I agree about being safe but when does being 2 safe become a unsafe act.
Jafa62

[Bones42]

I'm sitting here wondering how Phoenix, who took their SCBA's out of the crew compartments, can ever get to fire if they needed to be on air 100' from smoke....

[LaFireEducator]

Guessin' they would ned some mighty long pre-connects.

[PFDTruck18]

I would guess you would need an hour bottle if your on air on the truck.

How about some of you stay in east bumblejaw fighting grass fires with the occasional (5 tops) dwelling fires a year packed up on everything. I will stay here fighting dwelling fires with the occasional (3 tops) grass fires a year wearing my pac when I wanna.

We will call it even

[ChicagoFF]

I would guess you would need an hour bottle if your on air on the truck.

How about some of you stay in east bumblejaw fighting grass fires with the occasional (5 tops) dwelling fires a year packed up on everything. I will stay here fighting dwelling fires with the occasional (3 tops) grass fires a year wearing my pac when I wanna.

We will call it even

What he said!

[TurdFergeson]

No joke: the dept. up the street from us wears their masks (not on air) while enroute! You can hear the officer talking through his mask calling for assignments. It usually causes a complete work stoppage in our station as everyone rolls around on the floor wishing they had a diaper on! The sad part is, they just don't know any better. They really think they're doing something good to speed their time into the building. Of course they can't be sure if they're in the right building or not through the fogged up mask!

I've seen a couple of others knock this notion. Before I made apparatus operator, I always had my mask on in the rig so that I'd be ready to go once we arrived on scene (for car fires and structure fires only). The one time I wasn't ready, was the time I didn't get the nozzle (and the line was pulled from my rig). I've never had a problem with not being able to see or tripping over things. So, if it's not a problem for those that do it, don't knock 'em. If you don't want to mask up in the rig, then don't.

[Dalmatian190]

AS for getting off the rig breathing air...

how much time can you realistically have for interior work? I would hazard a guess of 10 minutes or less.

If their "trained" to be on air stretching lines, raising ladders, etc, FyredUp...

Is it a bad thing they've self-limited the amount of time they can be inside?

[RFDACM]

[i]

Is it a bad thing they've self-limited the amount of time they can be inside?

Only if your the victim, homeowner or trapped firefighter.

I've seen a couple of others knock this notion. Before I made apparatus operator, I always had my mask on in the rig so that I'd be ready to go once we arrived on scene (for car fires and structure fires only). The one time I wasn't ready, was the time I didn't get the nozzle (and the line was pulled from my rig). I've never had a problem with not being able to see or tripping over things. So, if it's not a problem for those that do it, don't knock 'em. If you don't want to mask up in the rig, then don't.

Yeah, more of the: everyone's right, no ones wrong, touchy feely crowd. I guarantee that you cannot get as accurate a read on the fire building with a mask on. Period. You have restricted visibilty and peripheral vision, even before you fog up. And to not fog up? Must be the weather, cause I've yet to see a perfect mask that prevents fogging when it less than 98.6 F. Sometimes it doesn't happen, great. But firefighters need to reAd the building and performa personal size-up of the conditions and wearing a mask and running to grab the knob ignoring everything else like some insane whacker will not serve you well in a career of firefighting.

[FyredUp]

RFDACM...

Could not possibly agree more with everything you said in your post.

There is absolutley no way that you can be as efficient in those first few moments of size-up, laying lines or setting ladders or anything for that matter with a mask on. YES, have the scba on your back, YES have the mask in the ready state, either around your neck or hooked to the regulator and ready to go. But not on your face until you are ready to enter.

For the getting off the rig with the mask on or breathing air crowd...is your hydrant man getting off the rig with his mask on? Or breathing air? Does scba get worn at brush fires? I haven't been to one yet that doesn't produce smoke. If not, so much for strict adherence to your rules and further proof of the silliness of those rules.

I am going to tell you frankly I would laugh my butt off if I saw guys roll up to a fire call and jump off the rig...whoops, slowly climb down using every step with 3 point contact at all times with the rig...breathing air as they approached the scene. Talk about safety going well beyond the extreme...what a dramatic waste of air and a way to guarantee an incredibly short interior work time. Sorry, I just absolutely cannot even come close to getting on board with this one.

Be safe, but be smart and safe, for those of you using air outside the hot zone of the fire...ever consider that those precious minutes of air you waste ouside may be the difference between you making a rescue or putting out the fire, or even more importantly, saving your own butt? Come on...there is no one here supporting that tactic. at least not that I have seen. I would love to hear the justification for that SOG.

Run amok safety rules appear to me to be every bit as hazardous to firefighters and the civilians we protect.

FyredUp

[HeavyRescueTech]

I have worn a pack at both a brush fire and car fire. and a truck fire. been on air too. do you need one? no, you don't. you can stay back and lob water on it from a safe distance, and then there is no need for an air pack.

engine compartment fire? probably handle it with a booster line, no pack need.
fully involved car fire? yeah, i'll have a pack on, and if it's really going, on air too.

truck fire? hell yeah, if it's going, I'm putting a pack on, and going on air.

small brush fire, no pack. but i can recall one fire in particular where it wasn't that big of an area, but it was starting to climb up some of the trees and expand into the woods. did I need a pack, no, it would have been handled without one. did the pack allow me to go right through the front of the fire and prevent it from extending into the rest of the woods, instead of having to push the fire back into the woods. so again, needed, no, useful, yes in this instance.

btw, for structural alarms (fires, AFAs, smoke in the area, etc. ), I always have a pack. If I go on a roof, I have a pack on, and usually am on air. we primarily have SFD, so that is where my limited experience lies. I've been on calls that we initially thought were BS AFAs and they turned out to be fires, as well as smoke in the areas that ended up being fires. it's easier to drop a pack if it's not needed than to run back to the truck and grab one.

they are my lungs, and my health, and I plan on having a long, healthy career. You don't have to if you don't want to, but when you have cancer and burns to your lungs from all your years of not putting a pack on and breathing smoke, I'll be standing proud watching my grandkids gets firefighter I certifications, as well as knowing that I'm still healthy enough to go inside with them.

But that's just me

[LaFireEducator]

It's your choice to protect your body or abuse it.

In my case, it's not. The department has chosen to protect us with SOPs requiring thier use in any smoke situation, except brush.

[FyredUp]

LOOK...READ MY LIPS...since you can't appear to comprehend what I am writing.

1) When the situation calls for it I wear my mask.
2) AFA, get full PPE with an SCBA on my back with my mask hanging from my neck ready to be quickly donned.
3) Car fires get a mask
4) Interior work on a structure fire gets a mask
5) On my career FD roof venting gets a mask
6) CO calls when they are about 35ppm gets a mask


I am not saying don't have an scba on your back, I am not saying don't wear your mask in a hazardous environment. So please be smarter than that and stop making it sound like that's what I am saying.

What I am saying is in my humble opinion it is foolish to get off the rig with the mask on your face and waste precious time trying to accomplish work on the fireground that doesn't require immediate use of your scba.

I am also saying that an SOG that requires you to dismount the rig breathing air simply is beyond my comrehension of WHY you would have that rule. Honestly it sounds to me like a rule implemented by someone that is NOT a firefighter. Because where I work and even where I volly there are buildings that if you masked up before you got close to the hazard area you better bring at least one spare bottle with you because you will be out of air before you ever get there. Especially if you are advancing hose or carrying a hose bundle for a standpipe. Sorry, unless every fire you have is a single family dwelling with access right off the street of 50 feet or less this is a tremendously bad idea.

It's your choice to protect your body or abuse it.

In my case, it's not. The department has chosen to protect us with SOPs requiring thier use in any smoke situation, except brush.

Now LA this is entirely different in context to what you have been saying. There is a great difference between wearing your scba in smoke and what you said earlier about dismounting the rig breathing air EVERYTIME at a structure fire. So please tell me which is it?

FyredUp

[DonSmithnotTMD]

engine compartment fire? probably handle it with a booster line, no pack need.
fully involved car fire? yeah, i'll have a pack on, and if it's really going, on air too.

I have an FNG question about this. If it's fully involved with no one inside, wouldn't that be a defensive situation? Actually, a vehicle fire with no victims seems like a low gain scenario. If possible, save some property, but don't get killed in the process. What I'm saying is cool it, put it out, but there's no reason to be aggressive.

[5pts384]

We are conservative with our air, would use it more if the nearest fill for us wasen't 26 miles away. Our area is slow so we get away with filling that afternoon or the next day, this is going to bite us someday.

[LaFireEducator]

Fryed ...

If you look at one of my previous posts, you will see that it is our department's policy (as well as my previous department) to mask up in the truck, which is silly. I do and always have disagreed with that SOP unless it is a reported vehicle fire, where you would get off the rig and go to work right away. I have always disagreed with that policy ... but rules are rules.

What I am saying is that SCBA should be worn in any and ALL smoke enviroments, including light smoke in structures. THis includes dumpster and vehicle and OUTSIDE of structure fires as well when working in the smoke.
I do disagree with masking up in the rig, unless a vehicle fire, and have said that in my posts.

[Dalmatian190]

Talk about safety going well beyond the extreme...

It's taking it right past safe.

I have an FNG question about this. If it's fully involved with no one inside, wouldn't that be a defensive situation? Actually, a vehicle fire with no victims seems like a low gain scenario. If possible, save some property, but don't get killed in the process. What I'm saying is cool it, put it out, but there's no reason to be aggressive.

You're not even saving property. The car is toast; there is no value to it.

You may be preserving some crime evidence, you may even find a body.

However, the primary reason is marching up and extinguishing the fire is it is the best way to handle the hazard -- fire goes out, you're no longer playing the "what if this happens" scenarios.

I have seen similiar heavily involved car fires extinguished with 700 gallons...and 50 gallons. Depends on the training, skill, and complacency level of the crew.

There are known common risks, and those can be handled easily but simple steps -- take 7 seconds to throw your mask on, approach from a corner, put the fire out. Put the fire out, the risks go away.

[firefighter7160]

I see alot of people in here are the outside firefighters, as for my dept. Are SOP was hard learned. It was only wrote up because of a warehouse fire we had 5 years ago. It was the middle of summer and around 90F outside. Some firefighters had taken of there PPE. Two firefighters on the southside of the building opened an overhead door and were burned, one over 40% of his body. After this, new rules were written. Yes they went all the way. But the folk's downtown are covering there butt's and are's. And as for masking up in the truck, the scott mask's has never foged up on me. I wear mine just about every day I work. When the truck stop's we are in the house in less then two min's. Most the time I go on air as I walk to the house, or as I pull the line. Do it anoff and your use to it. Some say are dept. is one of the most aggresave FD's in the state. Because we will go in on 75-80% involved structure's. But thats how we fight fire. Not every dept. does it the same way. Stay I good shape and you should get 15-20 MIN's out of your bottle. But as ive seen most firefighter's are not in the best shape.

Some post have wrote about not going right to work at a fire. So they dont have to be on air. Now thats funny...... What do you guy's do watch and see how long it will take for the roof to fall in.

[TurdFergeson]

Yeah, more of the: everyone's right, no ones wrong, touchy feely crowd. I guarantee that you cannot get as accurate a read on the fire building with a mask on. Period. You have restricted visibilty and peripheral vision, even before you fog up. And to not fog up? Must be the weather, cause I've yet to see a perfect mask that prevents fogging when it less than 98.6 F. Sometimes it doesn't happen, great. But firefighters need to reAd the building and performa personal size-up of the conditions and wearing a mask and running to grab the knob ignoring everything else like some insane whacker will not serve you well in a career of firefighting.

All I'm saying is this is what I prefer to do. Nobody from my company has had a problem with sizing up the building with our masks on. If you don't want to wear your mask in the rig, then don't, I won't knock you for it. And if you think my department is a bunch of whackers for doing this, then fine...even though it's kind of absurd to think so being that you've never seen us do the job. But that's okay. I guess we all need to fight fire like you do. Since we don't do it the way you like, I'll be at HQ tomorrow and we'll get all of our SOPs changed to fit you.

[RFDACM]

All I'm saying is this is what I prefer to do. Nobody from my company has had a problem with sizing up the building with our masks on. If you don't want to wear your mask in the rig, then don't, I won't knock you for it. And if you think my department is a bunch of whackers for doing this, then fine...even though it's kind of absurd to think so being that you've never seen us do the job. But that's okay. I guess we all need to fight fire like you do. Since we don't do it the way you like, I'll be at HQ tomorrow and we'll get all of our SOPs changed to fit you.

Hmmm... I guess LAFD, Pheonix FD, Chicago, FDNY, Boston, Detriot, Philly, DC and thankfully the largest percentage of FDs here in the US must be wrong? Some of us actaully like to know where windows and doors might be before we go in? Or if there's a victim lying in the bushes, the arsonist running down the alley, the number of mailboxes on the porch or meters on the #4 wall? You know, little things that get missed when your vision is even partailly obscured and/or your in an all out race to grab the knob and get in the building as fast as you can. Or does everyone in a mask take a walk around and do their size-up first? Hell, that was one of the reasons Pheonix gave as why they're removing SCBA's fromt he cab and jump seats. They want their personnel to slow down and read the building better!

[loxfire16]

For me everything with the exception of a grass fire will get a pack. If I don't think air will be needed I won't don the mask, but I'll have the pack on.

This sometime draws criticism from my other firefighters who do not think a pack is needed, even for alarm calls. Until the day that alarm turn into a worker and they all have to run back to the truck for packs , and I'll be at the nozzle ready to go !