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  1. #61
    MembersZone Subscriber tomlaumann's Avatar
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    Default Waukesha County Numbering system

    Follow this link:

    http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...kNumbering.htm

    The county is split into four qaudrants and the FD's numbers are set up as:

    1000 series southeast
    2000 series northeast
    3000 series southwest
    4000 series northwest
    If you follow the link the numbering sysem is explained.


  2. #62
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Ahh 10-4 Loxfire16...I see what you are saying now.

    I recall a large dept I think in Ohio for whatever reason a few years back completely overhauled their number system from something like ours to something like PG countys. Where the Ladders were stripped of their identity and numbers and were given new numbers identical to the Engine in quarters with them.

    Didn't make sense to me when I read it then and still doesn't today but if that is what makes their boat float then good for them. Don't know what that cost to switch over the dispatch computers, the appratus door markings. lables, forms...etc. or what it did operationally for them.

    Personally I never understood numbering by "station" or house as if a department has twelve firehouses with twelve Engines and five Ladder Co.s And the Ladders are in quarters with Engines 2 ,6,7,8 & 11 I don't understand why one wouldn't number them Ladders 1 thru 5...but again there is no coded info neccesary to call for an Engine or a Ladder so it isn't a problem.

    I seem to recall DCFD years ago actually assigned Letters to their Ladders as Hook & Ladder F or J...etc. But there is no code in Ladder C,D...etc.

    Now for us during the early 1900s into the late 70s the FDNY had what were refered to as second sections and there was even a third section in one Engine. If you had two sections they were refered to as Engine Co. 91-2 or in verbal parlance (Nintey-One-Two) or 50-2. Or 103-2. But in other cases they actually opened entire new companies and had multiple Engines in the same house, like E82 E85, L31 and TCU712 which was the FDNYs brief experimentation with coded identifications...today there is one house with two Engines 264, 328 and L134. But each company is numbered as its own...the reason we aren't numbered 1-200+ with no missing in between is space that was created for expansion and a few disbandings along the way.

    Now a system as you descibe really isn't coded...Engine 6 and 61 isn't a big departure from E91 and 91-2.

    Both much different than Units 822 and 1453...but I digress...it just seemed a bit complicated for the people who claimed 10-codes needed to be done away with.

    Numerous persons clammored for the end to 10-codes a few months back...but it would seem 10 codes are the least of our problems when I need an enigma machine to determine your local call sign for Engine Co. 16.

    Either way I'm not loosing sleep over it.

    FTM-PTB
    Im a bit late here, but I can tell you why we match house numbers to apparatus numbers. Everyone knows where the firehouses are. So if Im IC in my town and I ask for an additional truck co, by hearing the number I have an idea where its comming from, even if its a MA truck. And I dont mean by department, I know exactly where in the county that rig is, and about how long it will take to get to me.

    It would be near impossible to keep track of what MA company is in what MA house if we did it your way. Im busy enough keeping track of what goes on in my own department, let alone try and figure out where a department three cities away is keeping their aerial. Sure, I guess we could make a list, but that would have to be updated everytime a department moves a company to a different house. The way we do it, I know as soon as I ask for where in the county its comming from.

    The way you all do it makes perfect sense for one big department where its the Chiefs job to know what company is in what house, and knows about any changes.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Im a bit late here, but I can tell you why we match house numbers to apparatus numbers. Everyone knows where the firehouses are. So if Im IC in my town and I ask for an additional truck co, by hearing the number I have an idea where its comming from, even if its a MA truck. And I dont mean by department, I know exactly where in the county that rig is, and about how long it will take to get to me.

    It would be near impossible to keep track of what MA company is in what MA house if we did it your way. Im busy enough keeping track of what goes on in my own department, let alone try and figure out where a department three cities away is keeping their aerial. Sure, I guess we could make a list, but that would have to be updated everytime a department moves a company to a different house. The way we do it, I know as soon as I ask for where in the county its comming from.

    The way you all do it makes perfect sense for one big department where its the Chiefs job to know what company is in what house, and knows about any changes.
    Dave,

    Not sure I understand correctly, How critical is it to know that a Ladder truck is comming from one location or another in a nearby city, obviously it is going to be a delayed repsonse but there isn't much difference between 15-and 19 minutes if you have no other recourse.

    Obviously the Dispatcher is sending the closest Ladder avaiable no? And I'm sure you know where each city is as well, No?

    I'm not sure I understand the need to know exactly how far away a Ladder is comming from. I understand the need to know that a Ladder is near or one will be delayed but the need of labling the Ladder the same as the Engine in that house (provided there is an Engine there at all) doesn't seem to tell me much as I still have to remember where that firehouse is...which is no more than me remembering that E28 and L11 are on East 2nd street.

    Obviously if a Chief here calls for a 2nd alarm upon arrival at the box he knows relocators won't be in the firehouses and the companies will becomming from a farther distance. And the if the company is comming from a distance or will be delayed as they are fighting traffic in Midtown the dispatcher will notify the Chief. And because he is the Chief it is more or less his job to know where companies are and aren't and we are always notified of jobs citywide so as to know what the situtation is out there.

    Everyone with any amount of time on knows that if, lets pick a box, I found box 851 in Manhattan is at the corner of 10th Ave at W49th Street is transmitted the normal companies would proabably be I'll guess... E54,23,34 L4 & 21. Batt. 9

    Now lets say the Chief in the 7th Battalion gets a ticket for Box 851 and on it he reads E 65, 40, 26, L 35 and L2. He knows none of those of those companies are anywhere near that box and obviously there is another box out in the neighborhood. So he is expecting a delay, he knows L2 is in with E8, he knows 65 and 26 are midtown single Engines and he knows 40 and 35 are together on the UWS.

    Just the same if the lets say the city is really busy today, there is a 4 alarm in the South Bronx, a 2nd alarm in Corrona Queens taxpayer, an All Hands on the LES and 2 10-75s in Brooklyn...now there are going to be companies here there and everywhere. And the 35th Batt acting 8th gets a ticket for Box 922 1st Ave and 58th.
    He sees this on the ticket:
    E059/008 E74 E260 L7 T119/013

    Now this Chief will know Eng 59 is normally in harlem but the /008 means they are now acting Eng 8 he knows where E74 is and it is on the UWS and no where near 1st Ave and Eng 260 he knows is a Queens company who is obviously comming accross the Queensboro bridge from their quarters. L 7 is going to be comming from E29th andTL 119 is normally from Brooklyn but at this moment they are comming from Yorkville as they are acting TL 13.

    Like I said I don't understand why one numbers a company a number they don't have, like a city with 14 firehouses and only 5 ladders having a Ladder Co. 11 or 14 or whatever. It doesn't seem that hard for us and everyone knows L29 is in with Eng 83 and 221 is quartered with H&L104 , 33/9, 4/15, 10/10and L20 is with the 1st Divison in Hells Hundred Acres....etc.

    How is differ from your expereince?

    How often do cities move companies from one house to another...here that is a rare and usually emmotionally charged event with the community even if it is only temporary.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 01-02-2007 at 04:15 PM.

  4. #64
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Dave,

    Not sure I understand correctly, How critical is it to know that a Ladder truck is comming from one location or another in a nearby city, obviously it is going to be a delayed repsonse but there isn't much difference between 15-and 19 minutes if you have no other recourse.

    Obviously the Dispatcher is sending the closest Ladder avaiable no? And I'm sure you know where each city is as well, No?

    I'm not sure I understand the need to know exactly how far away a Ladder is comming from. I understand the need to know that a Ladder is near or one will be delayed but the need of labling the Ladder the same as the Engine in that house (provided there is an Engine there at all) doesn't seem to tell me much as I still have to remember where that firehouse is...which is no more than me remembering that E28 and L11 are on East 2nd street.

    Obviously if a Chief here calls for a 2nd alarm upon arrival at the box he knows relocators won't be in the firehouses and the companies will becomming from a farther distance. And the if the company is comming from a distance or will be delayed as they are fighting traffic in Midtown the dispatcher will notify the Chief. And because he is the Chief it is more or less his job to know where companies are and aren't and we are always notified of jobs citywide so as to know what the situtation is out there.

    Everyone with any amount of time on knows that if, lets pick a box, I found box 851 in Manhattan is at the corner of 10th Ave at W49th Street is transmitted the normal companies would proabably be I'll guess... E54,23,34 L4 & 21. Batt. 9

    Now lets say the Chief in the 7th Battalion gets a ticket for Box 851 and on it he reads E 65, 40, 26, L 35 and L2. He knows none of those of those companies are anywhere near that box and obviously there is another box out in the neighborhood. So he is expecting a delay, he knows L2 is in with E8, he knows 65 and 26 are midtown single Engines and he knows 40 and 35 are together on the UWS.

    Just the same if the lets say the city is really busy today, there is a 4 alarm in the South Bronx, a 2nd alarm in Corrona Queens taxpayer, an All Hands on the LES and 2 10-75s in Brooklyn...now there are going to be companies here there and everywhere. And the 35th Batt acting 8th gets a ticket for Box 922 1st Ave and 58th.
    He sees this on the ticket:
    E059/008 E74 E260 L7 T119/013

    Now this Chief will know Eng 59 is normally in harlem but the /008 means they are now acting Eng 8 he knows where E74 is and it is on the UWS and no where near 1st Ave and Eng 260 he knows is a Queens company who is obviously comming accross the Queensboro bridge from their quarters. L 7 is going to be comming from E29th andTL 119 is normally from Brooklyn but at this moment they are comming from Yorkville as they are acting TL 13.

    Like I said I don't understand why one numbers a company a number they don't have, like a city with 14 firehouses and only 5 ladders having a Ladder Co. 11 or 14 or whatever. It doesn't seem that hard for us and everyone knows L29 is in with Eng 83 and 221 is quartered with H&L104 , 33/9, 4/15, 10/10and L20 is with the 1st Divison in Hells Hundred Acres....etc.

    How is differ from your expereince?

    How often do cities move companies from one house to another...here that is a rare and usually emmotionally charged event with the community even if it is only temporary.

    FTM-PTB
    That was a lot to digest.

    Well, perhaps my useing a ladder company wasnt the best example. The point I was trying to make has more to do with operational issues. If I ask for an additional company to handle a particular task, and I know that company's going to be delayed then perhaps Ill adjust my tactics and use what I already have. Or, if I hear my next company is comming from a distance and I know a closer one is at the training grounds or wherever, I can make the call to pull that company out of training.

    I dont know, perhaps its just because weve always done it this way and were all used to it. Maybe your way would work here.

    Hell, Ive been wrong before.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    That was a lot to digest.

    Well, perhaps my useing a ladder company wasnt the best example. The point I was trying to make has more to do with operational issues. If I ask for an additional company to handle a particular task, and I know that company's going to be delayed then perhaps Ill adjust my tactics and use what I already have. Or, if I hear my next company is comming from a distance and I know a closer one is at the training grounds or wherever, I can make the call to pull that company out of training.

    I dont know, perhaps its just because weve always done it this way and were all used to it. Maybe your way would work here.

    Hell, Ive been wrong before.
    I just find that type of numbering odd. I'm sure you know where everthing is. I just found it odd that one rather large midwest FD switched inexplicably from a system like ours to one like yours.

    I just don't see much benefit in switching, and I'm not aware of any FD that has gone from one like yours to one like ours.

    And if your companies just stick with a simple number that is more or less what we do I just find it odd that so many want to make it so complicated with coded numbering systems when Engine 34 works better than unit 1357.

    FTM-PTB

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    A uniform system that applies nationwide?? NOOOO...not gonna happen, despite the best efforts of the NIMS people to do so. Search the forums & you'll quickly see that FD's use different color helmets for various positions, different size handlines for high rise packs, etc...and that's OK...the field of emergency services is about adapting to the individual situation at hand which is beyond the norm so "cookie cutter" solutions don't work for a "one size fits all" approach.

    To answer the question at hand, our county of 115 FD's uses the following system - the townships (large geographical areas covering numerous communities) are divided into divisions (10 in all) with each department being assigned a two digit identifier to identify the division and the individual department (i.e. 1-20 is the 1st Division, 20th department) while the 3rd digit is to identify the individual apparatus. Now as far as the 3rd digit, that gets a little tricky because there is not a uniform system to identify apparatus type by number (i.e. 1, 2 or 3 = engine, 5 = ladder, 6 = rescue, 7 = ambulance).
    There are some generic ones that apply (i.e. an ambulance is usually 16, the signal for an ambulance call, addt'l ambulances usually run in sequential numbers) and chiefs/line/safety officers have designated numbers to clearly identify their rank (1st asst. chief, 2nd lt., safety officer, etc.).

    There is one local division (5 depts.) that uses a divisionwide numbering system so anytime you hear an apparatus identifier, regardless of dept., you know what type of apparatus it is. They use 1-5 for engines, 6 for ambulances (6-1, 6-2 for addt'l units), 7 for ladders, 8 for brush trucks (8A,
    8B, etc.), 9 for heavy rescue, etc. From listening to their communications, it semms to make things easier...when you hear a rig hit the road, the chief knows exactly what he's got coming instead of doing guesswork (um, let's see unit 2 from ABC FD, now is that an engine or the fire police van... ).

    One other area I know of uses a similar system but assigns specific numbers to identify the capacity of an apparatus (i.e. 1500 GPM or 1750 GPM engine,
    75' or 100' aerial platform, etc.). Seems like an ok system, my only concern would be when you have multiple apparatus fitting the same criteria...but hey, if it works for them, more power to 'em.

    My advice would be to use whatever system works for YOUR particular needs as a dept., division or county. NIMS has its' place but don't let the feds tell you how to run your ops 'cause the chances of you ever running into them are slim to none (besides they probably won't show up 'till 3 days after anyway..."You're doin' a great job, Brownie"). Quite simply...USE WHAT WORKS!!!

    Just my 2 cents..Stay Safe...

  7. #67
    Protective Economist Jonathan Bastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    And if your companies just stick with a simple number that is more or less what we do I just find it odd that so many want to make it so complicated with coded numbering systems when Engine 34 works better than unit 1357.

    FTM-PTB
    I think the numbering issue is a larger concern in areas where mutual aide is regular or where frequencies are shared. For example, you aren't going to be calling too many companies in to help...so you have no confusion on who Engine 24 is. My old FD, however, could call for help from any of 8 different agencies just on a 2nd alarm. It does matter if it is city A's Engine 2 or city B's Engine 2.

    While we could refer to them as City A Engine 2 and City B Engine 2, it is just as easy and uses less air time to say 702 and 802.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Quote Originally Posted by firemanjb View Post
    I think the numbering issue is a larger concern in areas where mutual aide is regular or where frequencies are shared. For example, you aren't going to be calling too many companies in to help...so you have no confusion on who Engine 24 is. My old FD, however, could call for help from any of 8 different agencies just on a 2nd alarm. It does matter if it is city A's Engine 2 or city B's Engine 2.

    While we could refer to them as City A Engine 2 and City B Engine 2, it is just as easy and uses less air time to say 702 and 802.
    I understand your concern jb. As it was said before everyone seems very focused on NIMS when much more critical abiet simpler issues need to be addressed.

    For example take all the Cities who are members of your regional dispatch that share the same coded unit numbers and just list them out and assign Engine numbers starting a 1 to infinity.

    For example:

    City A~ Engine 1 is now Engine 1
    Engine 2 is now Engine 2
    Engine 3 is now Engine 3
    City B~ Engine 1 is now Engine 4
    Engine 2 is now Engine 5
    Ladder 1 is now Ladder 1
    City C~Engine 1 is now Engine 6
    Engine 2 is now Engine 7
    Ladder 1 is now Ladder 2.....etc.

    Now even someone from outside you community would know who Engine 4 was...they are an Engine...as opposed to having to ask what they hell is Unit 1225?

    I really don't think it is that important, but it does illustrate why all the focus on the complicated NIMS stuff seems a bit misplaced as compared to this tpye of organization of companies and "handles"

    Just something to think about.

    FTM-PTB

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    FFFred, that's kind of why my county went with the last digit meaning what the vehicle is. ###1, engine. ###3, rescue. ###5, aerial. It can come from anywhere in the county and I know what type of vehicle I'm actually getting. The third digit is meaningless to anyone other than that company. The first two are the county assigned station #.

    I have: 4201, 4203, 4205, and 4204. Engine, rescue, aerial, transport unit (van).

    Bay Head (next town over): 1401, 1411, 1403. Engine, engine, rescue.

    All the first 3 are is to separate units.



    and then the kicker...for us...we may have Engine 4201 acting as Truck 1 at a scene and Truck 4205 acting as Engine 1. Everything has a pump and can/has been used as an engine. We don't have any "straight" ladder trucks without pumps. It works for us.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    FFFred, that's kind of why my county went with the last digit meaning what the vehicle is. ###1, engine. ###3, rescue. ###5, aerial. It can come from anywhere in the county and I know what type of vehicle I'm actually getting. The third digit is meaningless to anyone other than that company. The first two are the county assigned station #.

    I have: 4201, 4203, 4205, and 4204. Engine, rescue, aerial, transport unit (van).

    Bay Head (next town over): 1401, 1411, 1403. Engine, engine, rescue.

    All the first 3 are is to separate units.



    and then the kicker...for us...we may have Engine 4201 acting as Truck 1 at a scene and Truck 4205 acting as Engine 1. Everything has a pump and can/has been used as an engine. We don't have any "straight" ladder trucks without pumps. It works for us.

    Exactly, But perhaps I'm not saying this correctly. Everyone tells me that interaction with other departments far away is an issue and that was the reason so many supported the NIMS concepts. So why is it so many of the same people (not neccesarily you Bones) would have something as simple as the company identification labled with complicated coded systems that vary from county or region to region. At least with using basic terms like Engine or Ladder, or Truck or whatever one of these other departments from outside that everyone is so concerned about operating with would know that Engine 420 is an Engine versus Unit 4201 which could be anything to anyone.

    Why even use the last unit, why not call unit 4201 = "Engine 420" or 1403 as "Rescue 140" Then any interaction that company has with others would be much less consfusing for mutual aid companies or chiefs from outside your area.

    Once again this is just some thoughts on the subject from my obervations based on others comments regarding the 10-codes issue.

    FTM-PTB

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    A long time ago when we got our first engine, it was called "Engine 1" Then we got another and we called it "Engine 2" Now it gets tricky because we also got a truck. This they decided to call "Truck 1" then another truck came along and it was called "Truck 2" and on and on. Pretty easy system. We do have higher numbers than we have units, but that just comes from companies being taken out of service. We only have 97 or 98 engines now but our top number is engine 129.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Why even use the last unit, why not call unit 4201 = "Engine 420" or 1403 as "Rescue 140"
    Well, if the rest of the County would catch up and operate like us, that would work. We can't even get everyone to agree on Engine vs Pumper. I won't even get into Ladder, TowerLadder, LadderTower, Stick, Snorkle, etc. Hence, the "5" being simply Aerial.

    Oh, and then we'll add in that the numbering system is only suggested as the County does not have authority to number/name stations/apparatus.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Hey, my first double post!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    We can't even get everyone to agree on Engine vs Pumper. I won't even get into Ladder, TowerLadder, LadderTower, Stick, Snorkle, etc. Hence, the "5" being simply Aerial.
    Now that Bones is interesting. So I understand correctly, you could call for an aerial but what you get could be anything from a 55ft. Tele-squirt, 85Snorkle, 75 foot TL or a 110 rearmount ladder?

    FTM-PTB

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    Yes, that is correct. However, mutual aid companies know pretty well who has what and know what they will get. Only when the County Coordinators get involved does it get confusing.

    For the most part, in this end of the county at least, all the departments have their MA plans worked out with each other. The County Coordinators usually worry about station coverages for our areas. We tell them who we are calling (or they already have our SOP's) and they call for fill in's. And they don't always call the next over fill in, they may skip a town or two to balance everything out.

    If a call gets beyond our 4 levels of MA, we could then ask the coordinator to special call additional units, but at that time, we have about 16 engines, 4 aerials (over 100'), 3 aerials (under 100') and 2 or 3 rescues.


    I believe there are other parts of the County that use the coordinators much more often, and give them more control.
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    With a few exeptions, our county uses a plain approach to numbering. Each district (there are 15 individual fire jurisdictions and 8 EMS districts) has a number, and we use the piece of equipment and the station number. For example, we are Station 15, and have Engine 15, E-151, E-152, Brush 15, Boat 15, Rehab 15, etc. Chiefs are also identified that way. (Chief 15)

    EMS uses a similar system. Station 1 has Medic 11 and M 12, Station 2 has M 21 and M 22, Station 8 has M 81. It lets the IC know what he has on the way to him, and from where. It isn't perfect, but it seems to work well. This system has only been used for the past few years, but caught on well. The neighboring county seems to be moving towards this slowly. As with any department, change doesn't always happen quickly.
    Glenn Rainey
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    Dare County, North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    A long time ago when we got our first engine, it was called "Engine 1" Then we got another and we called it "Engine 2" Now it gets tricky because we also got a truck. This they decided to call "Truck 1" then another truck came along and it was called "Truck 2" and on and on. Pretty easy system. We do have higher numbers than we have units, but that just comes from companies being taken out of service. We only have 97 or 98 engines now but our top number is engine 129.
    Same evolution here. We have no fire "stations" as some departments do with station numbers. They are firehouses. In conversation or when answering the phone the houses are refered to as an example "10 Engine" or "4 Truck ."

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    Thumbs up

    Central dispatch in Vanderburgh County uses a prefix such as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.
    1 is Evansville City fire. Trucks are numbered by station such as: 1E1, 1L1, 1R1, 1E2, 1E3, 1R3, 1E4, 1Q5 and so on.
    2 is Evansville Police
    3 is Vanderburgh Sheriff
    4 is Scott Township Fire
    5 is McCutchanville Fire
    6 is Knight Township Fire
    7 is Perry Township Fire
    8 is German Township Fire

    This system is well organized for many departments on mutual aid runs when several departments on the same channel. City fire, Police are on seperate channels. Sheriffs have their own. And the Suburban Departments have a common dispatch channel.

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    Our area should have changed to the 700#'s to comply with some new standard in IECS. No one really did it, and we still have yet to do it, however, it would have been somewhat of a good idea. Other than the fact that you can not tell the difference between an ambulance and an engine.

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    Wow some of thoose vehicle numbers are confusing,or I am just too use to our numbering system . Our 911 center dispatches all but a few departments county wide and they all use the same numbering system except for 1.For example my company's engine is E-53-30, E = Engine,53 = is our district number,and 30 is our truck number,and every truck in the county except for the 1 city is numbered that way.E = Engine,L = Ladder,T = Tanker,R = Rescue,and M = Misc.The district numbers are alphabetical starting at 15. The truck numbers are choosen by the departments who own the trucks,for example we have 4 trucks numbered 10,20,30,and 40, other departments nearby may start at 10 so their trucks may be numbered 10,11,12,13,etc. Chiefs numbering pretty simple too,our chief is Car 53,1st ***'t is 53-1,and 2nd ***'t is 53-2. Our numbering system must work pretty well cause I know of a guy in a neighboring county who says there are quite a few departments there trying to get their county to switch over to our numbering system.

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