Thread: Turbo Draft

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    Default Turbo Draft

    Just wondering if many of you have them and what you think of them?

    Burn
    Alaska
    Burn<br />LT/EMT/Inst />Central Mat-Su FD<br />Wasilla Alaska

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    Don't have one.

    Have gone to a demo put on by the factory / inventor.

    It's a good tool if it meets a specific need.

    In my district, there really isn't any areas where we'd say, "Gee, we could really use 600gpm or so, and there's the water, but it's just out of our reach..."

    If I was Chief and had cash burning a hole in my pocket, I wouldn't mind having one for odd situation (and I have seen one fire we could've used on m/a -- big ol' river they had to set a tanker shuttle up next to for a large mill fire...since the river was a good 30'+ drop from anywhere you could've gotten a truck in to draft). But since it wouldn't meet any specific need in my own district, I wasn't going to spend a lot of time arguing for the expenditure.

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    What Dal said.

    You could also search around the forums, there have been some "lively" discussion threads in the past about turbodrafts.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I had the opportunity to train on one this morning.

    The setup was:
    1,500 GPM pumper
    100' 2.5" to the Turbo Draft
    100' of 4" to the ball intake valve
    about 10' of elevation from water source to the pump

    The first thing we found was;
    1. DO NOT allow the pressure on the siphon line to fall below 175.
    2. DO NOT exceed the flow capacity of the setup, which was just under 400 GPM. The instant you exceed this flow, the siphon line looses pressure, which causes the intake line to loose pressure and collapse, thus destroying your water flow.

    We were trying to use it for supply to the fill pumper in a water shuttle.
    I found that if you use your truck's booster tank, you supplement the flow to the fill line. When the tanker is full, shut the fill line and go back to the tank fill. The is allowed us to fill tankers at a faster rate than the TurboDraft could supply. But as soon as the tanker was full, you best switch back to tank fill and get ready for the next unit.

    The NFPA required check valve in the tank-to-pump line kept excess pressure from the intake from going into the tank, and if we out-flow the TurboDraft, the check valve would kick open to prevent cavitation.
    Last edited by txgp17; 04-26-2008 at 01:07 PM.

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    DO NOT exceed the flow capacity of the setup, which was just under 400 GPM. The instant you exceed this flow, the siphon line looses pressure, which causes the intake line to loose pressure and collapse, thus destroying your water flow.
    I've never used one, but why would you be attempting draft with a line that can collapse?

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    Well, I guess you're making draft though the 4" supply hose. If that's the case, I can see why you might cavitate something like that if you pushed it too hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    I've never used one, but why would you be attempting draft with a line that can collapse?
    The name is a misnomer. You do not draft, the device pressurizes your intake line. You use a pressurized 2.5" to create a jet-siphon/venturi effect to pressurize collapsible hose.

    If we could use hard suction we'd be better of just drafting in the first place. The TurboDraft gives you more reach so you can use static sources that you would never be able to get close to.
    Last edited by txgp17; 04-26-2008 at 01:07 PM.

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    The name is a misnomer. You do not draft, the device pressurizes your intake line. You use a pressurized 2.5" to create a jet-siphon/venturi effect to pressurize collapsible hose.
    Well, if you're using a static water source, then you're still drafting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Well, if you're using a static water source, then you're still drafting.
    No, you're not.
    You are using a water jet eductor to create positive pressure inside collapsible hose using the venturi principle. The water is pushed uphill into the eye of the impeller. The pump intake pressure is higher than zero, but only slightly.

    Drafting involves creating a partial vacuum inside the pump intake, and allowing atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi) to push the water into the intake.
    Last edited by txgp17; 04-26-2008 at 01:08 PM.

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    Drafting involves PULLING from a static source. The turbo-draft PUSHES the water into the hose.

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    You are using a water jet eductor to create positive pressure inside collapsible hose using the the venturi principle.
    The venturi principle in fact operates by creating a vaccuum behind it, allowing atmospheric pressure to push water from the static source into it. You cannot be operating from a static source without technically being at draft. It astounds me how many times we have to go over this here in the forums and how many people there are out there operating pumps without a grasp of basic operations or physics.
    The pump intake pressure is higher than zero, but only slightly.
    The intake is always at pressure, even if it's just atmospheric pressure. Otherwise, no water would ever move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    The venturi principle in fact operates by creating a vaccuum behind it, allowing atmospheric pressure to push water from the static source into it. You cannot be operating from a static source without technically being at draft.
    All drafting operations create a partial vacuum but not all partial vacuums are drafting operations.

    Why don't you enlighten us some more and lay out a clear definition of the term "DRAFT". I've got some Orville Redenbacher in the microwave right now. Your "interpretation" ought to be entertaining to say the least.

    Clearly, you knew exactly why we were using soft hose as opposed to hard suction. So why did you ask the question in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    It astounds me how many times we have to go over this here in the forums and how many people there are out there operating pumps without a grasp of basic operations or physics.
    It's astounding how condescending your responses are. Were you born like this or did you have to work on it? I'll bet you're Mr. Popularity on the drill ground.

    When I say "zero pressure" it means the exact same as atmospheric pressure. If you notice, properly calibrated gauges indicate "0" pressure when the truck in parked and turned off. Doesn't matter if the truck is in Alma, CO or Badwater, CA. You knew exactly what I meant. You're just trying to play on words to make yourself fell better. Do you want a cookie?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    The intake is always at pressure, even if it's just atmospheric pressure. Otherwise, no water would ever move.

    Is this supposed to be some kind of news flash? What's the next revelation you want to share? Water is easier to boil at lower pressures?
    Last edited by txgp17; 04-25-2008 at 06:09 PM.

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    All drafting operations create a partial vacuum but not all partial vacuums are drafting operations.
    If you are pumping from a static source, you are drafting...I don't care at what point in the equipment set-up you create the low pressure area.
    Hope you didn't make too much popcorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    If you are pumping from a static source, you are drafting...I don't care at what point in the equipment set-up you create the low pressure area.
    Hope you didn't make too much popcorn.
    I don't know why I'm doing this. It's jag-offs like this guy that made me leave in the first place; why I don't have him on my ignore list is a mystery even to me.

    It's not a draft. It is a SIPHON. Just as rural water supply would use a jet SIPHON to move water from one folding tank to another, you SIPHON water from the static source to the pump. It's irrelevant if that static source be a river, pond, folding tank or the tank of a tender equipped with a jet dump. It's the same principle. When using a turbo-draft, your intake gauge will show a slight pressure reading. When pumping from pure draft it won't.

    Maybe the reason he and George don't get along is because they are too much alike?

    Now, back to my exile.
    Omnis Cedo Domus

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    Since the death of Marx and Lenin no one can tell the guy anything.

    www.turbodraft.com has useful info. Only issue I have is they are very very expensive (list $2995) for what they are. No competion.

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    From their website...
    The force of the flow combined with TurboDraft eductor technology creates a suction which draws water from the standing water supply.
    Reads like drafting to me.
    I don't know why I'm doing this. It's jag-offs like this guy that made me leave in the first place; why I don't have him on my ignore list is a mystery even to me.
    There's the door, Susie...or stick around and cry some more. Either way, I don't give a damn.
    It's not a draft. It is a SIPHON. Just as rural water supply would use a jet SIPHON to move water from one folding tank to another, you SIPHON water from the static source to the pump.
    A SIPHON uses gravity only.
    When using a turbo-draft, your intake gauge will show a slight pressure reading. When pumping from pure draft it won't.
    Irrelevant.

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    Since the death of Marx and Lenin no one can tell the guy anything.
    Way to lend intelligent thought to the debate.

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    Just as a reminder, the thing is called a "TurboDraft", not a "TurboSiphon".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Just as a reminder, the thing is called a "TurboDraft", not a "TurboSiphon".
    Funny, I didn't see a turbo anywhere on the TurboDraft™.

    It's called a trademark for a reason. It primary purpose is for marketing, not scientific accuracy.

    By your misguided rational, we could use the TurboDraft™ device to pass a NFPA 1901 Acceptance test. The standard requires the test be performed from a "draft."
    Last edited by txgp17; 04-18-2008 at 02:19 PM.

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    By your misguided rational, we could use the TurboDraft™ device to pass a NFPA 1901 Acceptance test. The standard requires the test be performed from a "draft."
    Eh? You can draft with a drinking straw. Doesn't mean it will flow the need GPM or perform well enough to meet the requirements.
    Funny, I didn't see a turbo anywhere on the TurboDraft™.
    It reads "TurboDraft", not "DraftTurbo". If that simple concept is lost on you, I'm afraid there's little hope you'll get much out of the rest of what I post.
    It's called a trademark for a reason. It primary purpose is for marketing, not scientific accuracy.
    Irrelevant. The device is operated by the engineer as equipment connected to the supply pumper. It performs by creating a low pressure condition to induce flow in a static source of water. Using the venturi principle and not gravity rules out it's description in any way as a siphon. It is not creating a singular pressurized point of supply, such as an outside source does to a hydrant. Therefore, it is indeed a drafting device. They could call it a SuperChargedDraft, and it still wouldn't change the basic physics. It merely uses a different process other than a vaccuum pump to establish draft. I really don't see what's so hard to grasp about all this.

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    ThNozzleman, just curious...have you ever used a TurboDraft?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    ThNozzleman, just curious...have you ever used a TurboDraft?
    No, but the design and operation seem simple enough as described on their website. It looks like the same setup as some of the older units that took a handline to aid in water transfer. At the price quoted by someone else here, I doubt many departments in this area will ever have one. I could see their usefulness when drafting from hard-to-reach static sources, but that's about it.

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    I read the entire set of specs and operating information on their website. All procedures and terminology mentioned there are absolutely consistant with what the fire service considers a drafting operation, by the way. The only difference is how the draft is established, and the use of some of the discharge pressure to keep the soft hose from collapsing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    I read the entire set of specs and operating information on their website. All procedures and terminology mentioned there are absolutely consistant with what the fire service considers a drafting operation, by the way.
    ThNozzleman, we have a tanker with a jet-dump on it. Does the jet-dump device operate from a draft?

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    ThNozzleman, we have a tanker with a jet-dump on it. Does the jet-dump device operate from a draft?
    Is its source a static, non-pressurized one below the pump?

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