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Thread: Bored and wrong

  1. #1
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Default Bored and wrong

    Well I got bored over the weekend and took the troops to the field to do a little research.Specifically to confirm or dispel the "myth"of pulling columns on FWD vehicles.We spent all day Sunday pulling columns on a wide variety of FWD vehicles and I have to admit this myth is BUSTED! NOT ONE of the columns we pulled violently snapped back.Some had a little more energy than others but I would say based on the research we did that it is still a viable technique to gain a little clearance.One thing we did do is use a HD nylon strap(like the linesmen use on poles) rather than a chain on the column.It didn't cut into the column as bad.On another angle,if your patient has their feet caught up in the pedals or under the dash,you should use this technique with due caution.So as much as I hate to say it,I was wr,wr... oh I still can't say it.Try it on your next drill,T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-29-2006 at 04:20 PM.


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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Never admit you were wrong, just that you weren't right.

    Don't worry, I'm sure someone will come on here and say it should never be done because they will break. Even though you actually did it and found opposite.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default

    My idol, Mr Tom Wehr, the inventor of the Glas-Master and Colum-Master, has pulled hundreds of colums on all types for cars, front, rear, old, new, domestic, import and has stretched them wayyyy past the point of practical and has never had the "violent explosion" that we have always heard about.

    "This myth is BUSTED"

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    Exclamation

    I'll agree, use reasonable force and movement when pulling columns. Shouldn't be a problem.
    Developer and Sr. Presenter, Team Xtreme
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    Forum Member RyanEMVFD's Avatar
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    Any other myths to bust?
    NREMT-P\ Reserve Volunteer Firefighter\Reserve Police Officer
    IACOJ Attack

    Experts built the Titanic, amateurs built the Ark.

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    Let's see,
    1)Hollywood has the whole world believing that every car crash ends in a firey explosion
    2) Spring loaded center punchs lose their spring tension ... Not true, the tips mushroom because the glass is harder then the steel therefore you lose the 10,000 pounds per square inch needed to break the surface tension of the tempered glass. Simply resharpen
    3) Brand X tool will never work with brand Y tool... Not true, you need 3 things for tools to be compatable ... the same presure, the same fluid and the same couplings. Do you really think that pump knows whats on the other end of the hose?
    4) We must buy brand X because the company down the road has brand X so we are compatable ...See above. And when was the last time that you pluged you tool into your neighbors pump??
    5) TERC compititions are just for those "Top Notch" teams. Not true, they are for everyone. They are the single most educational event in the extrication world.... Get to one near you SOON !!!

    These myths are BUSTED !!
    Thats all I can think of for now, I'm sure that their are many more.

    Zmag

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    Exclamation Any more?

    As Mike says, there are many. How many can you think of?

    Like glass is a carcinogen and we all must wear masks while extricating. While there may be some points in fact, overall I don't think it is a grave danger to us. What do you think?
    Developer and Sr. Presenter, Team Xtreme
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    Forum Member RyanEMVFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRig
    As Mike says, there are many. How many can you think of?

    Like glass is a carcinogen and we all must wear masks while extricating. While there may be some points in fact, overall I don't think it is a grave danger to us. What do you think?
    Not a carcinogen but I rather not inhale minute glass shards into my lungs.
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    I'll agree with minimizing inhaling glass.
    Developer and Sr. Presenter, Team Xtreme
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    Question Fuel lines

    Then there's the one about fuel lines mounted within the roof posts. Anyone care to comment? Either prove it in fact, or bust the myth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRig
    Then there's the one about fuel lines mounted within the roof posts. Anyone care to comment? Either prove it in fact, or bust the myth.
    You must be thinking of hybrids. Some have power cables running there, but not fuel lines. They will always be mounted inside the frame rails.
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    Not hybrids, simply actual fuel lines through the roof posts.
    Developer and Sr. Presenter, Team Xtreme
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    Red face

    That myth probably started when someone found a water drain tube from a sunroof track that lead down the leftside A-pillar and continues on through to the lower A-pillar area and onto the ground. I could see someone thinking it was a fuel line when they were cutting a roof off and saw this tube that probably had moisture around it. Just a hunch.

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    Forum Member RyanEMVFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog7
    That myth probably started when someone found a water drain tube from a sunroof track that lead down the leftside A-pillar and continues on through to the lower A-pillar area and onto the ground. I could see someone thinking it was a fuel line when they were cutting a roof off and saw this tube that probably had moisture around it. Just a hunch.
    That's what I've always been led to believe.
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    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Well I got bored over the weekend and took the troops to the field to do a little research.Specifically to confirm or dispel the "myth"of pulling columns on FWD vehicles.We spent all day Sunday pulling columns on a wide variety of FWD vehicles and I have to admit this myth is BUSTED! NOT ONE of the columns we pulled violently snapped back.Some had a little more energy than others but I would say based on the research we did that it is still a viable technique to gain a little clearance.One thing we did do is use a HD nylon strap(like the linesmen use on poles) rather than a chain on the column.It didn't cut into the column as bad.On another angle,if your patient has their feet caught up in the pedals or under the dash,you should use this technique with due caution.So as much as I hate to say it,I was wr,wr... oh I still can't say it.Try it on your next drill,T.C.
    Bingo! We have a winner!

    I've been saying this for some time now- they can be pulled.

    Extricators need to remember that the pull required to release someone is very different to the pull required to snap or cause a failure of a column.

    I'm sire either Ron Moore or Ron Shaw (can't remember who) wrote a fantastic article advocating the use of this technique and dispelling the myth...

    Grandmaster- PM me with your email address. I could be coming your way some time in '07 and would love to touch base...
    Luke

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    Default Fuel lines

    I was reading several of the Emergency Response Guides recently and came across the Mercades-Benz guides. I do not recall off hand which model it was but there were several cross section photos of all the components and to tell you the truth it looks like the fuel lines run along the roof line. I really hope I'm wr wr, not right. If this is the case then it changes everything.
    If anyone has the most recent response guides for the M-B Hybrids take a look at the cross section photos and let me know what you think.
    Thanks.

  17. #17
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    Talking

    The fuel tank in the Mercedes-Benz passenger car model series is located in the area in front of or above the rear axle or under the loading floor.

    The Fuel lines are routed in the protected areas along the center tunnel or the side skirt and are mainly made of metal. In the engine compartment they are routed such that in the event of a deformation of the front end as a consequence of a head-on collision, a fuel line can for the most part be ripped off.
    The fuel pump is shut down automatically when the engine comes to a stop.

    What you may have seen in the Response guides are the actual roof airbag curtains that generally are highlighted in blue and the fuel tank highlighted in green if viewed in black and white from a printed version of the Response Guide they could be confused as being linked together.

    A point I would like to express is imagine what running a fuel line in a roof rail would be like to repair due to corrosion or impact for the autobody industry, cutting into it with fuel that has leaked out from the breached line into the roof rail would be like cutting a fuel tank that still has fuel in it. A very unlikely area to put fuel lines.
    Also the extra work a fuel pump would have to do in order to overcome gravity by pumping fuel up, across and down the roof rail to the engine.

    All the reasearch that I have done on this subject be it talking to Autobody Professionals or Auto manufacturers regarding where the fuel lines run, none have indicated putting them in the roof rails or rocker channels.
    Most run them in the vacinity of the frame to protect them from a collision, it's easier to repair or replace and offers the least resistance for the fuel pump itself to not have to overcome gravity.

    There is one vehicle model that I'm still checking on and that is the 1978 Honda Civic. I had a report from someone that said they thought that the fuel line runs in the driver's side rocker channel. Although I find it highly unlikely, I will still investigate.

    I must admit I have been wrong before and will be again so if anyone has any concrete facts to offer regarding this thread, please reply.

    Just my two cents for what its worth.

  18. #18
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    Default Fuel line in rocker panel.

    I have personally cut a fuel line in the rocker panel of a Honda (I think of the vintage mentoined earlier.) Iwas told to cut the B post low for patient removal.( obvious reasons ) In making the cut I clipped the top of the rocker panel. A couple weeks later in VRT class at the local tow yard the owner told the instructors of getting a gas bath when he tried to start the car to sell the engine. The line ran through the top edge right under the drivers side doors.

    Alan

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    I use to have a list of five cars, that an instructor told us had the fuel line in the A post, I cut many of each over time and never found a one. Just another example of what we are talking about in the Extrication Cert. thread.

    Like others said I could be wrong, but I am yet to find one. If memory serves me right, one that was on that list was the early 90s Camaro/Firebird, but I know for sure that one is wrong, We used too many of them for race cars.
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  20. #20
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    Default Lines in the roof

    Also be aware of Air conditioning fluid lines that run to the rear passenger areas of a vehicle. Most likely found in SUVs and vans. Pull the headliner and the trim on the posts to investigate.
    Todd D.Meyer
    Gig Harbor Fire & Medic One
    tmeyer@piercefire.org

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