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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNY101TRUCK
    But they don't have to because you can get an abortion. I mean this is just my opinion on abortions and I know there is someone out there who will disagree but I still think its their own choice, you want to have an abortion then ok.
    And is this casual, throw away line the advice you would give a sixteen year old daughter? "Do what you want, have unprotected sex, don't worry about anything. If you get pregnant you can always get an abortion. And you can get as many as you need honey, so do what feels good. Have fun at the prom!" Ever think about writting a parenting book?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I don't think that anyone was arguing whether it was a law or not. I think the thread was started to debate the morality of the law. If your only comment on the issue is "It's the law" then you really don't add much to the debate, do you?
    Amen.

    And people also don't often realize that Roe v. Wade is actually a state's rights case more than it is an abortion case.

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    ChicagoFF...

    The morality issue is with how we as a society and as parents view sex and how we educate our young regarding it. The abortion issue is a side bar to the larger issue.

    I had a strong heart to heart with my 16 year old son regarding sex and consequences. I made it clear to him that if he engaged in sex with his girlfriend and got her pregnant his life as he knows it would be over. I made it clear the baby would be HIS financial responsibility, not mine. I also made it clear that virtually every waking moment not in school would be spent working to support his baby. The other thing we discussed was disease and how that would mess him up.

    Parents need to be responsible enough to teach their kids about sex and birth control as well as abstinance. It is not the schools job, it is not the teachers job. It is the parents job to raise decent kids who become decent adults.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I don't think that anyone was arguing whether it was a law or not. I think the thread was started to debate the morality of the law. If your only comment on the issue is "It's the law" then you really don't add much to the debate, do you?
    If you would have read my entire post instead of just skimming you may have seen this little tidbit:
    Another thing to think about is that the law is not always morally right. look at sex offender laws. Most people could make a moral argument that they should be put to death. yet it is not a charge in which one faces the eath pentelty.
    Read the enitre post before you bash on it next time ok?

    And if you think my comment did not add much to this debate, what did yours add?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    If you would have read my entire post instead of just skimming you may have seen this little tidbit:
    Read the enitre post before you bash on it next time ok?

    And if you think my comment did not add much to this debate, what did yours add?
    I did read the entire post. That was why that little "tidbit" was specifically included in my reply while other lines were not. I included it to show that the one time you brought up the main point of this thread, morality, your point was so what if a law is not moral , its still the law. The post was asking for strong abortion rights supporters to defend a moraly repugnant practice, not tell everyone the obvious - it's the law.
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  6. #31
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    So abortion is morally repugnant to you. Obviously not every one believes that or abortion would be illegal. Therefore what is morally wrong to you is not morally wrong to others. Personally, i believe that forcing a woman to carry a child that she does not wish to carry is morally wrong.

    Most (if not all) pro-life supporters are basing thier idea on religous principles. Such principles have no place in the laws of this country or have you forgotten that the constitution strictly pohibits the union of church and state.

    But in the end, there truly is no compromise. it is either one extreme or the other, and neither side will ever convince the other. Therefore this is my last post in this thread (barring extenuating circumstances, of course ) because we will just keep arguing until the webteam bans us, and i dont feel like getting kicked off this board.
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    Most (if not all) pro-life supporters are basing thier idea on religous principles. Such principles have no place in the laws of this country or have you forgotten that the constitution strictly pohibits the union of church and state.
    Well, then it must be all right to steal, or murder another person, or wrong to accept the concept of marriage. After all, these are all rules founded in religion. Letís get rid of them. With your philosophy, they have no business in our legal system anyway. Your statement may hold bearing with the religious whacks of the far right, but it is not accurate. I know more than just a few people (non-churchgoers) who view abortion as a birth control method as wrong. Using abortion as a method of birth control is about as pathetic as it gets, and shows nothing but a lack of respect for human life. It also shows a selfishness that is beyond words. There are plenty of options to prevent pregnancy that are foolproof.
    I donít think you will find any reasonable person oppose abortion when the mothers life is in imminent danger, or she is a victim of rape, or incest. You will never convince me it is acceptable as a form of birth control, however. That concept has nothing to do with religion, either. If you have ever seen an ultra-sound, you realize very quickly that that is a human being in there, and not just a ďfetusĒ.
    Again though, as was stated earlier, roe vs. wade is more of a states right issue than it is abortion.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    So abortion is morally repugnant to you. Obviously not every one believes that or abortion would be illegal. Therefore what is morally wrong to you is not morally wrong to others. Personally, i believe that forcing a woman to carry a child that she does not wish to carry is morally wrong.
    The thread was about aborting a child because it does not meet your expectations of a "perfect" baby. Cleft lip? Kill it. Club foot? Kill it. Brown eyes - not blue? Kill it. If this is not morally repugnant and the very worst of eugenics than there is something seriously wrong with our country.

    Most (if not all) pro-life supporters are basing thier idea on religous principles. Such principles have no place in the laws of this country or have you forgotten that the constitution strictly pohibits the union of church and state.
    I have never been baptized, and outside of weddings or a funneral have never set foot in a church as anything other than a tourist. I have never read the bible cover to cover and just got my first copy from my cousin, a priest, because we enjoy arguing about things and I needed some ammo against him! I appreciate religion and respect believers, but it has never been a part of my life. To say that all people who have a set of morals, a firm idea of right and wrong, are doing so because of religion is just flat out wrong. P.S. Nowhere in the constitution will you find a separation of church and state.

    But in the end, there truly is no compromise. it is either one extreme or the other, and neither side will ever convince the other. Therefore this is my last post in this thread (barring extenuating circumstances, of course ) because we will just keep arguing until the webteam bans us, and i dont feel like getting kicked off this board.
    I am not the standard bearer of the right and am certainly flexable on this issue. As has been brought up, cases of rape, incest, or the mothers life are one thing. Using it as a crutch to support irresponsible behavior or outright eugenics is another.
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    Everyone seems to have forgotten that the United States was formed on the basis of individual rights. Any law that attempts to take away a woman's absolute right to her own body should be unconstitutional.

    In this article: Judge Was Right to Declare "Partial-Birth" Abortion Ban Unconstitutional
    substitute "possibly disabled fetus" for partial-birth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    ChicagoFF...

    The morality issue is with how we as a society and as parents view sex and how we educate our young regarding it. The abortion issue is a side bar to the larger issue.

    I had a strong heart to heart with my 16 year old son regarding sex and consequences. I made it clear to him that if he engaged in sex with his girlfriend and got her pregnant his life as he knows it would be over. I made it clear the baby would be HIS financial responsibility, not mine. I also made it clear that virtually every waking moment not in school would be spent working to support his baby. The other thing we discussed was disease and how that would mess him up.

    Parents need to be responsible enough to teach their kids about sex and birth control as well as abstinance. It is not the schools job, it is not the teachers job. It is the parents job to raise decent kids who become decent adults.

    FyredUp
    How about, "Sex before marriage is wrong"?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    So abortion is morally repugnant to you. Obviously not every one believes that or abortion would be illegal. Therefore what is morally wrong to you is not morally wrong to others. Personally, i believe that forcing a woman to carry a child that she does not wish to carry is morally wrong.

    Most (if not all) pro-life supporters are basing thier idea on religous principles. Such principles have no place in the laws of this country or have you forgotten that the constitution strictly pohibits the union of church and state.

    But in the end, there truly is no compromise. it is either one extreme or the other, and neither side will ever convince the other. Therefore this is my last post in this thread (barring extenuating circumstances, of course ) because we will just keep arguing until the webteam bans us, and i dont feel like getting kicked off this board.
    "Every life is sacred" is not a religious principal.

    I guess I can put you down as supporting convenience abortion in order to get the perfect baby?

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    George (and others), simple question....who/what says sex before marriage is wrong?

    I know a couple that have lived together for close to 10 years, they just never got married. Without asking them, you would never know if they were married or not (other than not having a common name). Why is it wrong for them to have relations?

    Really curious as to your answer, however I am guessing it will have some religious basis to it.
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    Bones,

    Yes, itís biblical. The book of Ephesians is about relationships and how a man should treat a woman. I don't expect you to share my beliefs or benchmarks.

    Just curious, are you saying anyone who follows a Christian value system is wrong?

    I don't expect anyone to share my beliefs or the moralistic bar I set for myself. By the same token when others try to force me live with a much lower moralistic bar (In my view) it rubs me the wrong way. We live in a world that celebrates the right to kill the most vulnerable of all, the unborn child. We killed over 1 million babies a year practicing abortion since 1972. Woo Hoo raise the roof!! I think itís a sin, I think its wrong but I wonít demand that you agree(not saying you do, roe v. wade does). I support a womanís right to choose but I also strongly believe in the sanctity of life. So finding a compromise is the challenge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    "Every life is sacred" is not a religious principal.

    I guess I can put you down as supporting convenience abortion in order to get the perfect baby?

    I know that i said that the last post was my last in this forum, but George now you ticked me off.

    I NEVER said that i was in favor of using abortion in this way. I never said a d*mn think about the story you posted. I only pointed out logical facts (ok i went a little over the line with the religion comment i apologize for that). It is not morally right to force a woman to deliver a baby that she does not want to deliver, physical defects or not.

    DO NOT put words into my mouth. I believe in the principal of the democracy, where a woman (or any person) can do what they want to themselves. One could even argue that a fetus in th ewomb is not a life, mearly the potential for life. So really if there is not life then how can it be sacred? But i guess "every potential life is sacred" isint a very good slogan is it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    I know that i said that the last post was my last in this forum, but George now you ticked me off.

    I NEVER said that i was in favor of using abortion in this way. I never said a d*mn think about the story you posted. I only pointed out logical facts (ok i went a little over the line with the religion comment i apologize for that). It is not morally right to force a woman to deliver a baby that she does not want to deliver, physical defects or not.

    DO NOT put words into my mouth. I believe in the principal of the democracy, where a woman (or any person) can do what they want to themselves. One could even argue that a fetus in th ewomb is not a life, mearly the potential for life. So really if there is not life then how can it be sacred? But i guess "every potential life is sacred" isint a very good slogan is it?
    As someone pointed out, after looking at an ultrasound of even a very young unborn baby, it is virtually impossible to argue, factually, that a baby in the womb is not a life.

    Sooooo, if it is morally wrong to make a woman carry a pregnancy with birth defects to term, then, in your world, it is morally acceptable for a woman to kill a baby with birth defects.

    Can't have it both ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    George (and others), simple question....who/what says sex before marriage is wrong?

    I know a couple that have lived together for close to 10 years, they just never got married. Without asking them, you would never know if they were married or not (other than not having a common name). Why is it wrong for them to have relations?

    Really curious as to your answer, however I am guessing it will have some religious basis to it.
    Bones, in this case, I was speaking in terms of a teenage boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    As someone pointed out, after looking at an ultrasound of even a very young unborn baby, it is virtually impossible to argue, factually, that a baby in the womb is not a life.

    Sooooo, if it is morally wrong to make a woman carry a pregnancy with birth defects to term, then, in your world, it is morally acceptable for a woman to kill a baby with birth defects.

    Can't have it both ways.
    As i mentioned before i believe that a fetus in the womb is not a life but the potential for life, so can how can you kill something that does not really exist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    As someone pointed out, after looking at an ultrasound of even a very young unborn baby, it is virtually impossible to argue, factually, that a baby in the womb is not a life.

    Sooooo, if it is morally wrong to make a woman carry a pregnancy with birth defects to term, then, in your world, it is morally acceptable for a woman to kill a baby with birth defects.

    Can't have it both ways.
    From the article I posted earlier: "Banning any type of abortion to "protect the fetus" necessarily grants rights to the fetus--an utter perversion of individual rights. If a woman has no right to her own body, then by what logic does a fetus (which, by definition, is a biological parasite) have a right to the woman's body? Properly, an infant's rights begin after the fetus is removed from the mother's body."

    (end of quote from previously cited article)

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    Quote Originally Posted by fflynn17
    From the article I posted earlier: "Banning any type of abortion to "protect the fetus" necessarily grants rights to the fetus--an utter perversion of individual rights. If a woman has no right to her own body, then by what logic does a fetus (which, by definition, is a biological parasite) have a right to the woman's body? Properly, an infant's rights begin after the fetus is removed from the mother's body."

    (end of quote from previously cited article)

    Once the fetus is born, it gets all the rights every other human being gets.
    OK, so in other words, you have never seen an ultrasound of a baby in the womb. AND, it is morally OK to kill a baby in a convenience abortion because it is not perfect. OK, We get it. Keep pushing the culture of death, buddy.

  20. #45
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    Once the fetus is born, it gets all the rights every other human being gets.

    It really is sad that this is how we are defining human life now. Really now, where does it stop? We, as a society decide that unborn babies are not human, whom else can we place under this definition? How about the handicapped? They donít contribute to society, other than to drain social security that is. How about the elderly, they are done contributing and serve no purpose anymore. After all that is what this is really about, isnít it? Whatever definition of human life suits us, at least for the moment. You want to have an abortion, feel free. You are correct, it is legal, and itís also your conscience.
    Roe vs. Wade is wrong, as it is a stateís rights issue, along with all of the other moral implications. It is a shame though, when animals have more rights than our children do. It is also curious to me how we spend so much time, and money to keep child molesters alive, and free, and also spend so much time and money to kill the most innocent of us all. Something just is not right about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    How about the handicapped? They donít contribute to society, other than to drain social security that is.
    I have a quick question Jasper. I believe that you may have misstyped in this statement because i was under the belief that the Social Security system was for people who work thier years in the market and then retire.

    sorry for the hijack.
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  22. #47
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    I believe that you may have misstyped in this statement because i was under the belief that the Social Security system was for people who work thier years in the market and then retire.

    No, I did not mistype, and I did not capitalize ďSocial SecurityĒ, as such I was not referring specifically to ďSocial SecurityĒ. I only point this out, as it was evidently necessary to be completely specific. The social security I was referring to is welfare, medi-care, Medicaid, SSI, and the other government programs that handicapped people collect from, and more than likely never contributed to in the first place.
    Now, what was your question, I missed it in your post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    As i mentioned before i believe that a fetus in the womb is not a life but the potential for life, so can how can you kill something that does not really exist?
    Just because you "believe" something does not make it a fact. Are you really trying to argue that a full term baby, fully capable of living outside the womb is not a life the day before it is born?!? Thats really what you are saying? So it is not alive, has no emotions, feels no pain, has no thoughts, until it is out side of the mothers body? That is completely ridiculous and, frankly, astonishing that anyone older than ten could hold such an uninformed opinion. That vagina sure is a magical item - it can create a human life by passing a dead peice of flesh through it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by fflynn17
    Everyone seems to have forgotten that the United States was formed on the basis of individual rights. Any law that attempts to take away a woman's absolute right to her own body should be unconstitutional.
    It's funny, you never see the rigidly dogmatic and shrill protests over a womans right to kill herself. I mean, the big bad government wont let you off yourself so you should be horrified, right? When are the NOW gals gonna plan the Pro Suicide march in Washington DC? We can't as a country tolerate these back alley suicides anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    It's funny, you never see the rigidly dogmatic and shrill protests over a womans right to kill herself. I mean, the big bad government wont let you off yourself so you should be horrified, right? When are the NOW gals gonna plan the Pro Suicide march in Washington DC? We can't as a country tolerate these back alley suicides anymore.

    Acctually Chicagoff, suicide is not illegal. Attempted suicide is illegal. If you commit suicide (as you should be allowed to , it is your life), and succeed, what are they going to do to you? You are allready dead.

    You dont have to agree with my beliefs, frankly i dont care if you do or not. They are what i believe and i have that right.

    Jasper: Thank you for clarifying your post. I was just unaccostmed to the usage of social security in that context. and the entire post is basically a question, just not written in question form. obviously you understood that, or you would not have replied.
    Last edited by tbonetrexler; 06-08-2006 at 06:39 AM.
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