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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    George (and others), simple question....who/what says sex before marriage is wrong?

    I know a couple that have lived together for close to 10 years, they just never got married. Without asking them, you would never know if they were married or not (other than not having a common name). Why is it wrong for them to have relations?

    Really curious as to your answer, however I am guessing it will have some religious basis to it.
    Bones, in this case, I was speaking in terms of a teenage boy.


  2. #42
    Forum Member tbonetrexler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    As someone pointed out, after looking at an ultrasound of even a very young unborn baby, it is virtually impossible to argue, factually, that a baby in the womb is not a life.

    Sooooo, if it is morally wrong to make a woman carry a pregnancy with birth defects to term, then, in your world, it is morally acceptable for a woman to kill a baby with birth defects.

    Can't have it both ways.
    As i mentioned before i believe that a fetus in the womb is not a life but the potential for life, so can how can you kill something that does not really exist?
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  3. #43
    Forum Member fflynn17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    As someone pointed out, after looking at an ultrasound of even a very young unborn baby, it is virtually impossible to argue, factually, that a baby in the womb is not a life.

    Sooooo, if it is morally wrong to make a woman carry a pregnancy with birth defects to term, then, in your world, it is morally acceptable for a woman to kill a baby with birth defects.

    Can't have it both ways.
    From the article I posted earlier: "Banning any type of abortion to "protect the fetus" necessarily grants rights to the fetus--an utter perversion of individual rights. If a woman has no right to her own body, then by what logic does a fetus (which, by definition, is a biological parasite) have a right to the woman's body? Properly, an infant's rights begin after the fetus is removed from the mother's body."

    (end of quote from previously cited article)

    Once the fetus is born, it gets all the rights every other human being gets.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by fflynn17
    From the article I posted earlier: "Banning any type of abortion to "protect the fetus" necessarily grants rights to the fetus--an utter perversion of individual rights. If a woman has no right to her own body, then by what logic does a fetus (which, by definition, is a biological parasite) have a right to the woman's body? Properly, an infant's rights begin after the fetus is removed from the mother's body."

    (end of quote from previously cited article)

    Once the fetus is born, it gets all the rights every other human being gets.
    OK, so in other words, you have never seen an ultrasound of a baby in the womb. AND, it is morally OK to kill a baby in a convenience abortion because it is not perfect. OK, We get it. Keep pushing the culture of death, buddy.

  5. #45
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Once the fetus is born, it gets all the rights every other human being gets.

    It really is sad that this is how we are defining human life now. Really now, where does it stop? We, as a society decide that unborn babies are not human, whom else can we place under this definition? How about the handicapped? They donít contribute to society, other than to drain social security that is. How about the elderly, they are done contributing and serve no purpose anymore. After all that is what this is really about, isnít it? Whatever definition of human life suits us, at least for the moment. You want to have an abortion, feel free. You are correct, it is legal, and itís also your conscience.
    Roe vs. Wade is wrong, as it is a stateís rights issue, along with all of the other moral implications. It is a shame though, when animals have more rights than our children do. It is also curious to me how we spend so much time, and money to keep child molesters alive, and free, and also spend so much time and money to kill the most innocent of us all. Something just is not right about this.

  6. #46
    Forum Member tbonetrexler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    How about the handicapped? They donít contribute to society, other than to drain social security that is.
    I have a quick question Jasper. I believe that you may have misstyped in this statement because i was under the belief that the Social Security system was for people who work thier years in the market and then retire.

    sorry for the hijack.
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

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  7. #47
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    I believe that you may have misstyped in this statement because i was under the belief that the Social Security system was for people who work thier years in the market and then retire.

    No, I did not mistype, and I did not capitalize ďSocial SecurityĒ, as such I was not referring specifically to ďSocial SecurityĒ. I only point this out, as it was evidently necessary to be completely specific. The social security I was referring to is welfare, medi-care, Medicaid, SSI, and the other government programs that handicapped people collect from, and more than likely never contributed to in the first place.
    Now, what was your question, I missed it in your post.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    As i mentioned before i believe that a fetus in the womb is not a life but the potential for life, so can how can you kill something that does not really exist?
    Just because you "believe" something does not make it a fact. Are you really trying to argue that a full term baby, fully capable of living outside the womb is not a life the day before it is born?!? Thats really what you are saying? So it is not alive, has no emotions, feels no pain, has no thoughts, until it is out side of the mothers body? That is completely ridiculous and, frankly, astonishing that anyone older than ten could hold such an uninformed opinion. That vagina sure is a magical item - it can create a human life by passing a dead peice of flesh through it!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fflynn17
    Everyone seems to have forgotten that the United States was formed on the basis of individual rights. Any law that attempts to take away a woman's absolute right to her own body should be unconstitutional.
    It's funny, you never see the rigidly dogmatic and shrill protests over a womans right to kill herself. I mean, the big bad government wont let you off yourself so you should be horrified, right? When are the NOW gals gonna plan the Pro Suicide march in Washington DC? We can't as a country tolerate these back alley suicides anymore.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  10. #50
    Forum Member tbonetrexler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    It's funny, you never see the rigidly dogmatic and shrill protests over a womans right to kill herself. I mean, the big bad government wont let you off yourself so you should be horrified, right? When are the NOW gals gonna plan the Pro Suicide march in Washington DC? We can't as a country tolerate these back alley suicides anymore.

    Acctually Chicagoff, suicide is not illegal. Attempted suicide is illegal. If you commit suicide (as you should be allowed to , it is your life), and succeed, what are they going to do to you? You are allready dead.

    You dont have to agree with my beliefs, frankly i dont care if you do or not. They are what i believe and i have that right.

    Jasper: Thank you for clarifying your post. I was just unaccostmed to the usage of social security in that context. and the entire post is basically a question, just not written in question form. obviously you understood that, or you would not have replied.
    Last edited by tbonetrexler; 06-08-2006 at 06:39 AM.
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

    Actual lyric: Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight, get down tonight.
    (KC & The Sunshine Band "Do A Little Dance")

    My thoughts are mine alone and do not represent the thoughts of any Organization to which I am affiliated.

  11. #51
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    When are the NOW gals gonna plan the Pro Suicide march in Washington DC?
    With any kind of luck, really soon.

  12. #52
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    First post here...and what a discussion to wade into for a first post!!!

    Anyway...I'm not going to debate...only point out some scientific notes that will hopefully get people thinking (either way) over such an emotional topic:

    *A childs heart begins to form 18 days after conception.
    *There is a measurable heartbeat 21-24 days after conception.
    *The brain begins to form 23 days after conception.
    *The brain is producing brainwaves at about 6 weeks after conception.
    *Most women do not discover they are pregnant until after missing their menstruation cycle, which as everyone knows, lasts about a week...which takes us to the end of week 4 when they realize they are "late."
    *Most abortions occur between week 4 and week 6 after conception.

    What does all that mean? In almost all cases, the abortion destroys a functioning heart and brain of a human child. Some people argue that calling the unborn child a "fetus" is another way to disassociate the killing of a human (it's not a canine, feline or bovine...the child can ONLY be human) life. The first definition of the verb "kill" according to M-W.com is "to deprive of life."

    The real question, that will not be settled here, as it has yet to be settled anywhere else to the worlds satisfaction is:

    Where/when does human life begin?

    Does it begin at conception? Does it begin with the heartbeat and brainwaves? Does it begin at birth?

    Scott Peterson was charged with 2 counts of murder, for the killing of his wife Laci and his unborn son, Connor. Reflect on where you (in general, no one on here in particular) stood on that issue.

    Just some random food for thought. I'm off to the other sections to continue learning from the Crustified members who have been very generous in sharing experiences and tips for us probies, so that we may hopefully follow in their footsteps for a LONG period of time.

    Stay safe and stay low!!
    Last edited by Nine3Probie; 06-08-2006 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Minor clean-ups and additions for clarity.

  13. #53
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    RoughRider, No, I am not saying anyone is wrong because they choose to follow their religious beliefs or their non-religious beliefs. I really was just trying to get a little more "backround" from George (and others). I agree with the "teenage boy/girl" thing, and I base it simply on "You live in my house, you live by my rules".

    I said it before, I'll say it again, I don't believe in "convenience" abortion. I do believe the woman should have that choice in only a very very few circumstances. But I believe that in those circumstances, that woman should have that right to decide. And those circumstances do not involve possible defects, possible "imperfections", etc. They involve rape/incest.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #54
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    How about, "Sex before marriage is wrong"?
    Geaorge,

    I did express to him that it would be better if he waited. He clearly stated that he and his girlfriend had had this very discussion and had decided to wait. It was then that I made the consequences of not waiting clear to him.

    I do have to comment on your reply. Simply telling lids it is wrong is no deterrent. They need to be told it is wrong and then have reasons why and consequences of this detailed for them.

    I can only assume by your response that you never drank as a teenager, never tried weed, never engaged in any premarital sex, including heavy petting because after all...everyone knows those are wrong too.

    I do my best to educate my kids on issues that affect them, drinking, drugs. sex, being an idiot behind the wheel and the best way I have found is to make them understand that everything in life has consequences...some good, some very, very bad. So far they have both made wise decisions...and with help from me and my wife I hope they continue.

    FyredUp

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    Right, wrong makes no difference its all semantics. If it is outlawed, people will still do it. As long as its legal, at least it can be regulated. Once made illegal, you'll find the back alley quacks with coathangers come back.

    Think about it this way:

    There is a moral issue. Half the population says its vile, unethical and causes a moral decline. The other half says its their body, their money, their rights. The government backs the moral half...

    Did that stop people from drinking in the 30's? No. It caused crime and led to fatalities of morons that made their own.

    This is no different. You can be repulsed, angry and right but it may not be in the best interest of everyone.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Geaorge,

    I did express to him that it would be better if he waited. He clearly stated that he and his girlfriend had had this very discussion and had decided to wait. It was then that I made the consequences of not waiting clear to him.

    I do have to comment on your reply. Simply telling lids it is wrong is no deterrent. They need to be told it is wrong and then have reasons why and consequences of this detailed for them.

    I can only assume by your response that you never drank as a teenager, never tried weed, never engaged in any premarital sex, including heavy petting because after all...everyone knows those are wrong too.

    I do my best to educate my kids on issues that affect them, drinking, drugs. sex, being an idiot behind the wheel and the best way I have found is to make them understand that everything in life has consequences...some good, some very, very bad. So far they have both made wise decisions...and with help from me and my wife I hope they continue.

    FyredUp
    I couldn't possibly agree with your post more. I was a friggin' drunk in HS and college. If I had gone away to college, instead of staying home, there is no doubt in my mind that my life would have been a lot different. You also have to remember that the drinking age was 18 when I was in HS. I was 18 for the majority of senior year.

    But the fact that I did those things in my late teens is precisely the reason I have the views I have today on these issues. I didn't say that telling them it is wrong is the only thing to tell them. It was just the only thing missing from your post.

    My older kids are 19 and are away at school. It would be too late to tell them anything about sex, drugs, alcohol or anything else. It needs to start many years before that.

  17. #57
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    >>Scott Peterson was charged with 2 counts of murder, for the killing of his wife Laci and his unborn son, Connor. Reflect on where you (in general, no one on here in particular) stood on that issue.<<

    Great post. I did not have to reflect long. I was completely in favor of it. Kind of tied the NAGS up in knots, though, didn't it.

  18. #58
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default How about this lovely story?

    Should she be forced to have this baby? GARY, Ind. - The family of a special education student is suing the Gary School District after she was allegedly raped in gym class at Lew Wallace High School.


    The family accuses the school district of ignoring the incident, but school district officials said the alleged attacker has been charged in the case as a juvenile.
    "She's just emotional. She's bed wetting, losing sleep, she's just not good anymore," said the victim's guardian, who is not being identified to protect the girl.

    The attack allegedly occurred on April 5. The victim, who has a mental capacity of a 5-year-old according to her family, was escorted to a gym class because her regular special education teacher was late. The girl's family said the alleged attacker, a 14-year-old transfer student from Chicago, lured the girl into a secluded place and then forced her to perform sex acts. A teacher allegedly caught them in the act.

    The girl became pregnant during the attack, according to her guardian, and has no choice but to have an abortion.

    "She understand that she is pregnant, but she don't know what is really going on with her body," said the girl's guardian.

    An attorney for the girl said the alleged attacker should never have been in the gym because he has a history of assault and therefore should have been under supervision.

    "He was caught in the act. A paraprofessional came up and saw what was going on, so the evidence is clear. It appears to me while they should have done something to try to help the family short of where we are now to resolve this, but they have turned a blind eye to it," said Jerry Peteet, the family's attorney.

    The family is suing the school district for an estimated $750,000. Their attorney says the district has been ignoring the incident.

    "So far it's been swept up under the rug. Gary last a big problem with the school system. It needs to be just rehauled, revamped. Maybe this will be something that will spur the administration to do something better or put new people in office," said Peteet.

    The Gary School Board said it continues to investigate the case and therefore cannot comment publicly. However, officials said they are committed to making sure students are safe and secure in the learning environment and released a statement: "The administration has identified preventive procedures to ensure similar incidents do not occur in the future."
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Should she be forced to have this baby? GARY, Ind. - The family of a special education student is suing the Gary School District after she was allegedly raped in gym class at Lew Wallace High School.


    The family accuses the school district of ignoring the incident, but school district officials said the alleged attacker has been charged in the case as a juvenile.
    "She's just emotional. She's bed wetting, losing sleep, she's just not good anymore," said the victim's guardian, who is not being identified to protect the girl.

    The attack allegedly occurred on April 5. The victim, who has a mental capacity of a 5-year-old according to her family, was escorted to a gym class because her regular special education teacher was late. The girl's family said the alleged attacker, a 14-year-old transfer student from Chicago, lured the girl into a secluded place and then forced her to perform sex acts. A teacher allegedly caught them in the act.

    The girl became pregnant during the attack, according to her guardian, and has no choice but to have an abortion.

    "She understand that she is pregnant, but she don't know what is really going on with her body," said the girl's guardian.

    An attorney for the girl said the alleged attacker should never have been in the gym because he has a history of assault and therefore should have been under supervision.

    "He was caught in the act. A paraprofessional came up and saw what was going on, so the evidence is clear. It appears to me while they should have done something to try to help the family short of where we are now to resolve this, but they have turned a blind eye to it," said Jerry Peteet, the family's attorney.

    The family is suing the school district for an estimated $750,000. Their attorney says the district has been ignoring the incident.

    "So far it's been swept up under the rug. Gary last a big problem with the school system. It needs to be just rehauled, revamped. Maybe this will be something that will spur the administration to do something better or put new people in office," said Peteet.

    The Gary School Board said it continues to investigate the case and therefore cannot comment publicly. However, officials said they are committed to making sure students are safe and secure in the learning environment and released a statement: "The administration has identified preventive procedures to ensure similar incidents do not occur in the future."
    First of all, this is a tremendous tragedy. This poor girl is a victim of the worst kind of predator

    I am against abortion. There are plenty of families that would provide very well for this girl in exchange for the opportunity to adopt the baby. I take great exception the statement that they had "no choice".

  20. #60
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    GeorgeWendtCFI

    First of all, this is a tremendous tragedy. This poor girl is a victim of the worst kind of predator Exactly George, this was not consentual sex with poor birth control. This was a rape of a mentally challenged girl who clearly did not even understand what was ahppening.

    I am against abortion. There are plenty of families that would provide very well for this girl in exchange for the opportunity to adopt the baby. I take great exception the statement that they had "no choice". Unfortunately the reality of adoption in this country is a nightmare. I have 3 firends who after years of being screwed by the system while trying adopt here adopted kids from foreign countries instead. And honestly if what you are saying is true where is the list of those anti-abortionists willing to pay all the prenatal costs and then adopt these kids? There isn't one, because this is just another line of propanganda nonsense and you know it.
    Geprge, please explain to me why this mentally challenged girl, with an IQ of a 5 year old should have to go through with the trauma of the preganancy ater she was RAPED. Clearly, she had no consentual part in making this baby...

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-09-2006 at 01:11 AM.

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