1. #51
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    When are the NOW gals gonna plan the Pro Suicide march in Washington DC?
    With any kind of luck, really soon.

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    First post here...and what a discussion to wade into for a first post!!!

    Anyway...I'm not going to debate...only point out some scientific notes that will hopefully get people thinking (either way) over such an emotional topic:

    *A childs heart begins to form 18 days after conception.
    *There is a measurable heartbeat 21-24 days after conception.
    *The brain begins to form 23 days after conception.
    *The brain is producing brainwaves at about 6 weeks after conception.
    *Most women do not discover they are pregnant until after missing their menstruation cycle, which as everyone knows, lasts about a week...which takes us to the end of week 4 when they realize they are "late."
    *Most abortions occur between week 4 and week 6 after conception.

    What does all that mean? In almost all cases, the abortion destroys a functioning heart and brain of a human child. Some people argue that calling the unborn child a "fetus" is another way to disassociate the killing of a human (it's not a canine, feline or bovine...the child can ONLY be human) life. The first definition of the verb "kill" according to M-W.com is "to deprive of life."

    The real question, that will not be settled here, as it has yet to be settled anywhere else to the worlds satisfaction is:

    Where/when does human life begin?

    Does it begin at conception? Does it begin with the heartbeat and brainwaves? Does it begin at birth?

    Scott Peterson was charged with 2 counts of murder, for the killing of his wife Laci and his unborn son, Connor. Reflect on where you (in general, no one on here in particular) stood on that issue.

    Just some random food for thought. I'm off to the other sections to continue learning from the Crustified members who have been very generous in sharing experiences and tips for us probies, so that we may hopefully follow in their footsteps for a LONG period of time.

    Stay safe and stay low!!
    Last edited by Nine3Probie; 06-08-2006 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Minor clean-ups and additions for clarity.

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    RoughRider, No, I am not saying anyone is wrong because they choose to follow their religious beliefs or their non-religious beliefs. I really was just trying to get a little more "backround" from George (and others). I agree with the "teenage boy/girl" thing, and I base it simply on "You live in my house, you live by my rules".

    I said it before, I'll say it again, I don't believe in "convenience" abortion. I do believe the woman should have that choice in only a very very few circumstances. But I believe that in those circumstances, that woman should have that right to decide. And those circumstances do not involve possible defects, possible "imperfections", etc. They involve rape/incest.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    How about, "Sex before marriage is wrong"?
    Geaorge,

    I did express to him that it would be better if he waited. He clearly stated that he and his girlfriend had had this very discussion and had decided to wait. It was then that I made the consequences of not waiting clear to him.

    I do have to comment on your reply. Simply telling lids it is wrong is no deterrent. They need to be told it is wrong and then have reasons why and consequences of this detailed for them.

    I can only assume by your response that you never drank as a teenager, never tried weed, never engaged in any premarital sex, including heavy petting because after all...everyone knows those are wrong too.

    I do my best to educate my kids on issues that affect them, drinking, drugs. sex, being an idiot behind the wheel and the best way I have found is to make them understand that everything in life has consequences...some good, some very, very bad. So far they have both made wise decisions...and with help from me and my wife I hope they continue.

    FyredUp

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    Right, wrong makes no difference its all semantics. If it is outlawed, people will still do it. As long as its legal, at least it can be regulated. Once made illegal, you'll find the back alley quacks with coathangers come back.

    Think about it this way:

    There is a moral issue. Half the population says its vile, unethical and causes a moral decline. The other half says its their body, their money, their rights. The government backs the moral half...

    Did that stop people from drinking in the 30's? No. It caused crime and led to fatalities of morons that made their own.

    This is no different. You can be repulsed, angry and right but it may not be in the best interest of everyone.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Geaorge,

    I did express to him that it would be better if he waited. He clearly stated that he and his girlfriend had had this very discussion and had decided to wait. It was then that I made the consequences of not waiting clear to him.

    I do have to comment on your reply. Simply telling lids it is wrong is no deterrent. They need to be told it is wrong and then have reasons why and consequences of this detailed for them.

    I can only assume by your response that you never drank as a teenager, never tried weed, never engaged in any premarital sex, including heavy petting because after all...everyone knows those are wrong too.

    I do my best to educate my kids on issues that affect them, drinking, drugs. sex, being an idiot behind the wheel and the best way I have found is to make them understand that everything in life has consequences...some good, some very, very bad. So far they have both made wise decisions...and with help from me and my wife I hope they continue.

    FyredUp
    I couldn't possibly agree with your post more. I was a friggin' drunk in HS and college. If I had gone away to college, instead of staying home, there is no doubt in my mind that my life would have been a lot different. You also have to remember that the drinking age was 18 when I was in HS. I was 18 for the majority of senior year.

    But the fact that I did those things in my late teens is precisely the reason I have the views I have today on these issues. I didn't say that telling them it is wrong is the only thing to tell them. It was just the only thing missing from your post.

    My older kids are 19 and are away at school. It would be too late to tell them anything about sex, drugs, alcohol or anything else. It needs to start many years before that.

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    >>Scott Peterson was charged with 2 counts of murder, for the killing of his wife Laci and his unborn son, Connor. Reflect on where you (in general, no one on here in particular) stood on that issue.<<

    Great post. I did not have to reflect long. I was completely in favor of it. Kind of tied the NAGS up in knots, though, didn't it.

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    Default How about this lovely story?

    Should she be forced to have this baby? GARY, Ind. - The family of a special education student is suing the Gary School District after she was allegedly raped in gym class at Lew Wallace High School.


    The family accuses the school district of ignoring the incident, but school district officials said the alleged attacker has been charged in the case as a juvenile.
    "She's just emotional. She's bed wetting, losing sleep, she's just not good anymore," said the victim's guardian, who is not being identified to protect the girl.

    The attack allegedly occurred on April 5. The victim, who has a mental capacity of a 5-year-old according to her family, was escorted to a gym class because her regular special education teacher was late. The girl's family said the alleged attacker, a 14-year-old transfer student from Chicago, lured the girl into a secluded place and then forced her to perform sex acts. A teacher allegedly caught them in the act.

    The girl became pregnant during the attack, according to her guardian, and has no choice but to have an abortion.

    "She understand that she is pregnant, but she don't know what is really going on with her body," said the girl's guardian.

    An attorney for the girl said the alleged attacker should never have been in the gym because he has a history of assault and therefore should have been under supervision.

    "He was caught in the act. A paraprofessional came up and saw what was going on, so the evidence is clear. It appears to me while they should have done something to try to help the family short of where we are now to resolve this, but they have turned a blind eye to it," said Jerry Peteet, the family's attorney.

    The family is suing the school district for an estimated $750,000. Their attorney says the district has been ignoring the incident.

    "So far it's been swept up under the rug. Gary last a big problem with the school system. It needs to be just rehauled, revamped. Maybe this will be something that will spur the administration to do something better or put new people in office," said Peteet.

    The Gary School Board said it continues to investigate the case and therefore cannot comment publicly. However, officials said they are committed to making sure students are safe and secure in the learning environment and released a statement: "The administration has identified preventive procedures to ensure similar incidents do not occur in the future."
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Should she be forced to have this baby? GARY, Ind. - The family of a special education student is suing the Gary School District after she was allegedly raped in gym class at Lew Wallace High School.


    The family accuses the school district of ignoring the incident, but school district officials said the alleged attacker has been charged in the case as a juvenile.
    "She's just emotional. She's bed wetting, losing sleep, she's just not good anymore," said the victim's guardian, who is not being identified to protect the girl.

    The attack allegedly occurred on April 5. The victim, who has a mental capacity of a 5-year-old according to her family, was escorted to a gym class because her regular special education teacher was late. The girl's family said the alleged attacker, a 14-year-old transfer student from Chicago, lured the girl into a secluded place and then forced her to perform sex acts. A teacher allegedly caught them in the act.

    The girl became pregnant during the attack, according to her guardian, and has no choice but to have an abortion.

    "She understand that she is pregnant, but she don't know what is really going on with her body," said the girl's guardian.

    An attorney for the girl said the alleged attacker should never have been in the gym because he has a history of assault and therefore should have been under supervision.

    "He was caught in the act. A paraprofessional came up and saw what was going on, so the evidence is clear. It appears to me while they should have done something to try to help the family short of where we are now to resolve this, but they have turned a blind eye to it," said Jerry Peteet, the family's attorney.

    The family is suing the school district for an estimated $750,000. Their attorney says the district has been ignoring the incident.

    "So far it's been swept up under the rug. Gary last a big problem with the school system. It needs to be just rehauled, revamped. Maybe this will be something that will spur the administration to do something better or put new people in office," said Peteet.

    The Gary School Board said it continues to investigate the case and therefore cannot comment publicly. However, officials said they are committed to making sure students are safe and secure in the learning environment and released a statement: "The administration has identified preventive procedures to ensure similar incidents do not occur in the future."
    First of all, this is a tremendous tragedy. This poor girl is a victim of the worst kind of predator

    I am against abortion. There are plenty of families that would provide very well for this girl in exchange for the opportunity to adopt the baby. I take great exception the statement that they had "no choice".

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    GeorgeWendtCFI

    First of all, this is a tremendous tragedy. This poor girl is a victim of the worst kind of predator Exactly George, this was not consentual sex with poor birth control. This was a rape of a mentally challenged girl who clearly did not even understand what was ahppening.

    I am against abortion. There are plenty of families that would provide very well for this girl in exchange for the opportunity to adopt the baby. I take great exception the statement that they had "no choice". Unfortunately the reality of adoption in this country is a nightmare. I have 3 firends who after years of being screwed by the system while trying adopt here adopted kids from foreign countries instead. And honestly if what you are saying is true where is the list of those anti-abortionists willing to pay all the prenatal costs and then adopt these kids? There isn't one, because this is just another line of propanganda nonsense and you know it.
    Geprge, please explain to me why this mentally challenged girl, with an IQ of a 5 year old should have to go through with the trauma of the preganancy ater she was RAPED. Clearly, she had no consentual part in making this baby...

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-09-2006 at 01:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Geprge, please explain to me why this mentally challenged girl, with an IQ of a 5 year old should have to go through with the trauma of the preganancy ater she was RAPED. Clearly, she had no consentual part in making this baby...

    FyredUp
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong
    2. God doesn't make mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong
    2. God doesn't make mistakes.
    Ok, explain to me, George, how it is right to force a mentally challenged girl who was RAPED to deliever the baby caused by such an evil act. What did the girl do to anger 'god' enough to make her live through such a thing? How does the RAPE of a mentally challenged girl fit into the big picture of the world?
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    Ok, explain to me, George, how it is right to force a mentally challenged girl who was RAPED to deliever the baby caused by such an evil act. What did the girl do to anger 'god' enough to make her live through such a thing? How does the RAPE of a mentally challenged girl fit into the big picture of the world?
    I don't know. In fact, there are a number of horrible events that I do not understand how it fits into God's perfect plan. I have never pretended to know. The only thing I do kow is that God promises that, one day, we will understand it all. My faith is what sustains me through the trials in my life.

    I know, I'm horrible, I'm evil, I'm a religious zealot, I'm a bigot, I'm whatever else you can think of. But what I am not is a hypocrite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this. We actually agree more than you believe. BUT, I am not so totally opposed to abortion as to force a rape victim to bear a child born out of a violent act instead of one born out of love or an accident caused by poor choices.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong Yet, for some reason there is no majority outcry to change the law. Hmmmm, seems contradictory at least.

    2. God doesn't make mistakes. No, but because of free will humans do. But I could take your logic of God doesn't make mistakes and say that abortion is a part of God's plan since it happens.
    George is there some particular reason you chose not to answer the points I made about adoption in my last post?

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    George is there some particular reason you chose not to answer the points I made about adoption in my last post?

    FyredUp
    Yeah. Because it takes a cmplex issue and over-generalizes it to the point where it miscontrues it. You are correct if you are speaking about adoptions through a public agency. Private adoptions are done every day with little to no red tape.

    BTW: I have a nephew adopted from Liberia. I know about international adoption. This was no where near as simple as a private, domestic adoption.

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    These quotes are taken from THIS ARTICLE
    "Clearly, anti-abortionists believe that such women's lives are an unimportant consideration in the issue of abortion. Why? Because, they claim, the embryo or fetus is a human being--and thus to abort it is murder. But an embryo is not a human being, and abortion is not murder.

    There is no scientific reason to characterize a raisin-size lump of cells as a human being. Biologically speaking, such an embryo is far more primitive than a fish or a bird. Anatomically, its brain has yet to develop, so in terms of its capacity for consciousness, it doesn't bear the remotest similarity to a human being. This growth of cells has the potential to become a human being--if preserved, fed, nurtured, and brought to term by the woman that it depends on--but it is not actually a human being. Analogously, seeds can become mature plants--but that hardly makes a pile of acorns equal to a forest.

    What can justify the sacrifice of an actual woman's life to human potential of the most primitive kind? There can be no rational justification for such a position--certainly not a genuine concern for human life.

    The "pro-life" movement is not a defender of human life--it is, in fact, a profound enemy of actual human life and happiness. Its goal is to turn women into breeding mares whose body is owned by the state and whose rights, health and pursuit of happiness are sacrificed en mass--all in the name of dogmatic sacrifice to the pre-human."
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

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    George, I am very glad that you were given the choice to have your son. I am sure he has brought great joy to you and your family.

    Unfortunately, once one concedes that the government has the right to make a decision for a person on any such issue (such as outlawing abortion) it is not such a reach that the government now has the right to make the opposite decision for a person (they could now say that you MUST abort a child that is not perfect, so as not to drain needed resources).

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

    I don't think I need to put the reference for this quote.
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong
    2. God doesn't make mistakes.

    Actually, wasnt the whole flood 40 days 40 nights thing to correct a mistake???

    And not to be a stickler, but if you disagree on something, then your statement should read "I BELIEVE abortion is wrong", not "abortion is wrong". Your opinion is your belief, and Im not faulting you for that, because I agree with most of what you are saying. But it is only that, an opinion. Until you become King of the U.S., you can not unequivocally state that abortion is wrong.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fflynn17
    Unfortunately, once one concedes that the government has the right to make a decision for a person on any such issue (such as outlawing abortion) it is not such a reach that the government now has the right to make the opposite decision for a person (they could now say that you MUST abort a child that is not perfect, so as not to drain needed resources).
    Not such a reach? It's pure speculation and nothing more. And IMO, pretty pathetic speculation at that.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Actually, wasnt the whole flood 40 days 40 nights thing to correct a mistake???

    And not to be a stickler, but if you disagree on something, then your statement should read "I BELIEVE abortion is wrong", not "abortion is wrong". Your opinion is your belief, and Im not faulting you for that, because I agree with most of what you are saying. But it is only that, an opinion. Until you become King of the U.S., you can not unequivocally state that abortion is wrong.
    Check your Bible again. The flood was certainly not to correct a mistake made by God.

    I thought about what you said. Abortion is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Check your Bible again. The flood was certainly not to correct a mistake made by God.

    I thought about what you said. Abortion is wrong.

    Haha...well atleast you thought about it.

    “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth...And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them” (Genesis 6:5-7).

    “And the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done”(Genesis 8:21).
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Yeah. Because it takes a cmplex issue and over-generalizes it to the point where it miscontrues it. You are correct if you are speaking about adoptions through a public agency. Private adoptions are done every day with little to no red tape.

    BTW: I have a nephew adopted from Liberia. I know about international adoption. This was no where near as simple as a private, domestic adoption.
    George,

    The 3 couples I mentioned wasted years trying to adopt and felt they had followed every route to make it happen here in the US before choosing foreign adoption as an answer. Two of the kids are Chinese and one is from Mexico. In their cases I know what the time frame was to get a foreign child versus the frustration and waste of time of not being able to get a US child to adopt.

    I do have to agree that your statement of "abortion is wrong" is only your opinion and blatantly incorrect in this country. Because once again it is the law. You may believe it is morally wrong and that is your right, but to blanketly state that abortion is wrong is simply incorrect legally.

    Heck George there are plenty of things I believe are morally wrong in this country from my viewpoint, but it doesn't make it wrong if someone has a legal right to do it. I would think someone of your background would understand the difference.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Haha...well atleast you thought about it.

    “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth...And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them” (Genesis 6:5-7).

    “And the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done”(Genesis 8:21).
    God was grieved at man's misuse of the many gifts he had provided. It was due to their free will. He did not grieve because he made a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    God was grieved at man's misuse of the many gifts he had provided. It was due to their free will. He did not grieve because he made a mistake.

    How did we get free will? It must have been givin to us by 'god', for surely a religous person such as you dosent beleive in Darwin. So 'god' made the mistake of giving us free will, which led to the wrongs that we did ,which led to the flood.


    and to reiterate
    I BELIEVE abortion is wrong
    is the correct phrase to use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Not such a reach? It's pure speculation and nothing more. And IMO, pretty pathetic speculation at that.
    Our laws have already conceded the main point, which is that the "States" interest supercedes the individual's interests.

    The following quotes are from This article


    "Roe v. Wade is right in its result, but dangerously wrong in its reasoning. Roe v. Wade is correct in its conclusion that a fetus has no rights and that a woman has the right to determine whether or not to abort her pregnancy. But Roe v. Wade is wrong insofar as it holds that "state interests" justify interference with the woman's right and that, when the state so desires, it may commandeer her body either for her supposed benefit or the benefit of a fetus.

    In some 37 pages of discussion on the substantive issues in Roe v. Wade, the Court spent barely three pages in discussion of the fundamental issue: the nature of the right to abortion. Much more attention was given to how and when this right may and should be limited to further the "state's interest" in the health of the woman and in potential human life. On the basis of such "interests," the Court decided that the state may regulate abortion throughout pregnancy to protect the woman's health and generally prohibit abortion when the fetus becomes "viable." In so deciding, the Court conformed to a theory which has prevailed in United States law for most of the twentieth century: rights are not absolute and must be "balanced" against (i.e., invaded by) the "interests" of the state. In Roe v. Wade, the Court concluded that at the point of fetal viability, the "state's interests" in potential life outweigh the woman's right to control her own body.
    Abortion is a right, and all rights are absolute and cannot be "balanced" away. Ayn Rand has explained: "A right is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man's freedom of action in a social context." The moral standard to be applied, Ayn Rand has shown, is that of man's life and what is "required by man's nature for his proper survival." The fundamental condition for man's survival--the freedom to use his rational faculty to maintain and enjoy his life. Thus, a pregnant woman, like every other individual, has the right to determine her own destiny and the destiny of her body, to choose what constitutes her own best interest and private happiness and to work for its achievement, so long as she respects the same rights in others.

    These rights, and all rights, are absolute by their nature. It cannot be proper to negotiate moral principles. It cannot be proper to allow a man only a portion of the freedom he requires by his nature"
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

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