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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Geprge, please explain to me why this mentally challenged girl, with an IQ of a 5 year old should have to go through with the trauma of the preganancy ater she was RAPED. Clearly, she had no consentual part in making this baby...

    FyredUp
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong
    2. God doesn't make mistakes.


  2. #62
    Forum Member tbonetrexler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong
    2. God doesn't make mistakes.
    Ok, explain to me, George, how it is right to force a mentally challenged girl who was RAPED to deliever the baby caused by such an evil act. What did the girl do to anger 'god' enough to make her live through such a thing? How does the RAPE of a mentally challenged girl fit into the big picture of the world?
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

    Actual lyric: Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight, get down tonight.
    (KC & The Sunshine Band "Do A Little Dance")

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    Ok, explain to me, George, how it is right to force a mentally challenged girl who was RAPED to deliever the baby caused by such an evil act. What did the girl do to anger 'god' enough to make her live through such a thing? How does the RAPE of a mentally challenged girl fit into the big picture of the world?
    I don't know. In fact, there are a number of horrible events that I do not understand how it fits into God's perfect plan. I have never pretended to know. The only thing I do kow is that God promises that, one day, we will understand it all. My faith is what sustains me through the trials in my life.

    I know, I'm horrible, I'm evil, I'm a religious zealot, I'm a bigot, I'm whatever else you can think of. But what I am not is a hypocrite.

  4. #64
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this. We actually agree more than you believe. BUT, I am not so totally opposed to abortion as to force a rape victim to bear a child born out of a violent act instead of one born out of love or an accident caused by poor choices.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong Yet, for some reason there is no majority outcry to change the law. Hmmmm, seems contradictory at least.

    2. God doesn't make mistakes. No, but because of free will humans do. But I could take your logic of God doesn't make mistakes and say that abortion is a part of God's plan since it happens.
    George is there some particular reason you chose not to answer the points I made about adoption in my last post?

    FyredUp

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    George is there some particular reason you chose not to answer the points I made about adoption in my last post?

    FyredUp
    Yeah. Because it takes a cmplex issue and over-generalizes it to the point where it miscontrues it. You are correct if you are speaking about adoptions through a public agency. Private adoptions are done every day with little to no red tape.

    BTW: I have a nephew adopted from Liberia. I know about international adoption. This was no where near as simple as a private, domestic adoption.

  6. #66
    Forum Member fflynn17's Avatar
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    These quotes are taken from THIS ARTICLE
    "Clearly, anti-abortionists believe that such women's lives are an unimportant consideration in the issue of abortion. Why? Because, they claim, the embryo or fetus is a human being--and thus to abort it is murder. But an embryo is not a human being, and abortion is not murder.

    There is no scientific reason to characterize a raisin-size lump of cells as a human being. Biologically speaking, such an embryo is far more primitive than a fish or a bird. Anatomically, its brain has yet to develop, so in terms of its capacity for consciousness, it doesn't bear the remotest similarity to a human being. This growth of cells has the potential to become a human being--if preserved, fed, nurtured, and brought to term by the woman that it depends on--but it is not actually a human being. Analogously, seeds can become mature plants--but that hardly makes a pile of acorns equal to a forest.

    What can justify the sacrifice of an actual woman's life to human potential of the most primitive kind? There can be no rational justification for such a position--certainly not a genuine concern for human life.

    The "pro-life" movement is not a defender of human life--it is, in fact, a profound enemy of actual human life and happiness. Its goal is to turn women into breeding mares whose body is owned by the state and whose rights, health and pursuit of happiness are sacrificed en mass--all in the name of dogmatic sacrifice to the pre-human."
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

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  7. #67
    Forum Member fflynn17's Avatar
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    George, I am very glad that you were given the choice to have your son. I am sure he has brought great joy to you and your family.

    Unfortunately, once one concedes that the government has the right to make a decision for a person on any such issue (such as outlawing abortion) it is not such a reach that the government now has the right to make the opposite decision for a person (they could now say that you MUST abort a child that is not perfect, so as not to drain needed resources).

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

    I don't think I need to put the reference for this quote.
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

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  8. #68
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Let me first acknowledge that we do not agree on this.

    There are 2 reasons:

    1. Abortion is wrong
    2. God doesn't make mistakes.

    Actually, wasnt the whole flood 40 days 40 nights thing to correct a mistake???

    And not to be a stickler, but if you disagree on something, then your statement should read "I BELIEVE abortion is wrong", not "abortion is wrong". Your opinion is your belief, and Im not faulting you for that, because I agree with most of what you are saying. But it is only that, an opinion. Until you become King of the U.S., you can not unequivocally state that abortion is wrong.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  9. #69
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fflynn17
    Unfortunately, once one concedes that the government has the right to make a decision for a person on any such issue (such as outlawing abortion) it is not such a reach that the government now has the right to make the opposite decision for a person (they could now say that you MUST abort a child that is not perfect, so as not to drain needed resources).
    Not such a reach? It's pure speculation and nothing more. And IMO, pretty pathetic speculation at that.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Actually, wasnt the whole flood 40 days 40 nights thing to correct a mistake???

    And not to be a stickler, but if you disagree on something, then your statement should read "I BELIEVE abortion is wrong", not "abortion is wrong". Your opinion is your belief, and Im not faulting you for that, because I agree with most of what you are saying. But it is only that, an opinion. Until you become King of the U.S., you can not unequivocally state that abortion is wrong.
    Check your Bible again. The flood was certainly not to correct a mistake made by God.

    I thought about what you said. Abortion is wrong.

  11. #71
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Check your Bible again. The flood was certainly not to correct a mistake made by God.

    I thought about what you said. Abortion is wrong.

    Haha...well atleast you thought about it.

    ďAnd God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth...And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made themĒ (Genesis 6:5-7).

    ďAnd the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for manís sake; for the imagination of manís heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have doneĒ(Genesis 8:21).
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  12. #72
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    Yeah. Because it takes a cmplex issue and over-generalizes it to the point where it miscontrues it. You are correct if you are speaking about adoptions through a public agency. Private adoptions are done every day with little to no red tape.

    BTW: I have a nephew adopted from Liberia. I know about international adoption. This was no where near as simple as a private, domestic adoption.
    George,

    The 3 couples I mentioned wasted years trying to adopt and felt they had followed every route to make it happen here in the US before choosing foreign adoption as an answer. Two of the kids are Chinese and one is from Mexico. In their cases I know what the time frame was to get a foreign child versus the frustration and waste of time of not being able to get a US child to adopt.

    I do have to agree that your statement of "abortion is wrong" is only your opinion and blatantly incorrect in this country. Because once again it is the law. You may believe it is morally wrong and that is your right, but to blanketly state that abortion is wrong is simply incorrect legally.

    Heck George there are plenty of things I believe are morally wrong in this country from my viewpoint, but it doesn't make it wrong if someone has a legal right to do it. I would think someone of your background would understand the difference.

    FyredUp

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Haha...well atleast you thought about it.

    ďAnd God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth...And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made themĒ (Genesis 6:5-7).

    ďAnd the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for manís sake; for the imagination of manís heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have doneĒ(Genesis 8:21).
    God was grieved at man's misuse of the many gifts he had provided. It was due to their free will. He did not grieve because he made a mistake.

  14. #74
    Forum Member tbonetrexler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    God was grieved at man's misuse of the many gifts he had provided. It was due to their free will. He did not grieve because he made a mistake.

    How did we get free will? It must have been givin to us by 'god', for surely a religous person such as you dosent beleive in Darwin. So 'god' made the mistake of giving us free will, which led to the wrongs that we did ,which led to the flood.


    and to reiterate
    I BELIEVE abortion is wrong
    is the correct phrase to use.
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

    Actual lyric: Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight, get down tonight.
    (KC & The Sunshine Band "Do A Little Dance")

    My thoughts are mine alone and do not represent the thoughts of any Organization to which I am affiliated.

  15. #75
    Forum Member fflynn17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Not such a reach? It's pure speculation and nothing more. And IMO, pretty pathetic speculation at that.
    Our laws have already conceded the main point, which is that the "States" interest supercedes the individual's interests.

    The following quotes are from This article


    "Roe v. Wade is right in its result, but dangerously wrong in its reasoning. Roe v. Wade is correct in its conclusion that a fetus has no rights and that a woman has the right to determine whether or not to abort her pregnancy. But Roe v. Wade is wrong insofar as it holds that "state interests" justify interference with the woman's right and that, when the state so desires, it may commandeer her body either for her supposed benefit or the benefit of a fetus.

    In some 37 pages of discussion on the substantive issues in Roe v. Wade, the Court spent barely three pages in discussion of the fundamental issue: the nature of the right to abortion. Much more attention was given to how and when this right may and should be limited to further the "state's interest" in the health of the woman and in potential human life. On the basis of such "interests," the Court decided that the state may regulate abortion throughout pregnancy to protect the woman's health and generally prohibit abortion when the fetus becomes "viable." In so deciding, the Court conformed to a theory which has prevailed in United States law for most of the twentieth century: rights are not absolute and must be "balanced" against (i.e., invaded by) the "interests" of the state. In Roe v. Wade, the Court concluded that at the point of fetal viability, the "state's interests" in potential life outweigh the woman's right to control her own body.
    Abortion is a right, and all rights are absolute and cannot be "balanced" away. Ayn Rand has explained: "A right is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man's freedom of action in a social context." The moral standard to be applied, Ayn Rand has shown, is that of man's life and what is "required by man's nature for his proper survival." The fundamental condition for man's survival--the freedom to use his rational faculty to maintain and enjoy his life. Thus, a pregnant woman, like every other individual, has the right to determine her own destiny and the destiny of her body, to choose what constitutes her own best interest and private happiness and to work for its achievement, so long as she respects the same rights in others.

    These rights, and all rights, are absolute by their nature. It cannot be proper to negotiate moral principles. It cannot be proper to allow a man only a portion of the freedom he requires by his nature"
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

    Dusty, working on Crusty IACOJ

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    George,

    I do have to agree that your statement of "abortion is wrong" is only your opinion and blatantly incorrect in this country. Because once again it is the law. You may believe it is morally wrong and that is your right, but to blanketly state that abortion is wrong is simply incorrect legally.

    Heck George there are plenty of things I believe are morally wrong in this country from my viewpoint, but it doesn't make it wrong if someone has a legal right to do it. I would think someone of your background would understand the difference.

    FyredUp
    Wow, I thought I would stay out of this thread, but I'm actually chiming in again to agree with George on this one (who'd a thunk it?).

    Goerge can say "abortion is wrong" all he wants, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think he's obligated to put "I believe" in front of every opinion he states - I think we can all be intelligent enough to know that what he's saying is what he believes.

    And I've gotta say I BELIEVE (snicker) that just because someone has the legal right to do something doesn't mean it's not wrong. If there's no law against it, it means the government is keeping it's nose out of the issue, but that doesn't mean the action is not wrong. This has been obvious since I was a little kid. Examples (and you can read a mental "I believe" before these statements if you want):

    It's not illegal to indiscriminately breed animals that aren't needed/wanted... but it's wrong.

    It's not illegal to take your spouse for granted... but it's wrong.

    It's not illegal to publicly embarrass a classmate for fun... but it's wrong.

    It's not illegal to name your child something like "Peanut" or "SpaceMonkey"... but ithat's just REALLY wrong.

    Laws change, and things become legal that were once illegal and vice-versa. Thus "right or wrong" and "legal or illegal" are completely different matters.

    Obviously people disagree about what is right and what is wrong, but don't let that stop you from saying something is wrong if you believe it is. Opinions are like arseholes in the sense that everyone has one, but they are different from arseholes in one important way - you can share yours in public!
    -------;- "Aaaaa!!"
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    It's funny that both sides of the abortion issue use the same bible verse to back up their side.

    If you believe abortion is murder then it should never be allowed regardless of the situation.

    I believe there is a line somewhere between conception and birth where abortion is a viable alternative.

    If I knew where that line was, I'd be a smart SOB.

  18. #78
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baileydonk
    Wow, I thought I would stay out of this thread, but I'm actually chiming in again to agree with George on this one (who'd a thunk it?).

    Goerge can say "abortion is wrong" all he wants, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think he's obligated to put "I believe" in front of every opinion he states - I think we can all be intelligent enough to know that what he's saying is what he believes. It depends, one way it is an opinion and the other it is am outright declaration as if everyone should just go along with that.

    And I've gotta say I BELIEVE (snicker) that just because someone has the legal right to do something doesn't mean it's not wrong. If there's no law against it, it means the government is keeping it's nose out of the issue, but that doesn't mean the action is not wrong. This has been obvious since I was a little kid. Examples (and you can read a mental "I believe" before these statements if you want):

    It's not illegal to indiscriminately breed animals that aren't needed/wanted... but it's wrong. Silly analogy and completely irrelevant.

    It's not illegal to take your spouse for granted... but it's wrong. Again silly and irrelevant.

    It's not illegal to publicly embarrass a classmate for fun... but it's wrong. Cruel circumstance, but still silly and irrelevant.

    It's not illegal to name your child something like "Peanut" or "SpaceMonkey"... but ithat's just REALLY wrong. Embarassing and potentially eemotionally scarring, bit still silly and irrelevant.

    Laws change, and things become legal that were once illegal and vice-versa. Thus "right or wrong" and "legal or illegal" are completely different matters. Not in the eys of the law, and that is the point.

    Obviously people disagree about what is right and what is wrong, but don't let that stop you from saying something is wrong if you believe it is. Opinions are like arseholes in the sense that everyone has one, but they are different from arseholes in one important way - you can share yours in public! Of course you can believe something is wrong if you want to. Or that something is right if you want to. BUT, if it is legal under the law and all of your efforts to change that law have failed then it is okay to do that thing. Wheter others like it or not.
    This debate will never die because no matter what the law says there are zealots on both sides.

    FyredUp

  19. #79
    Forum Member FDNY101TRUCK's Avatar
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    It's not illegal to publicly embarrass a classmate for fun... but it's wrong

    Now that depends if you do it everyday and cross the lines into harassment....
    NEVER FORGET!
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    When this thread first started, I sent a message to the Web-Team to stop it before it starts, the Web-Team ignored my message despite the fact that I asked for a reply (not sure what's up with that). My reasoning is that no matter how long this neverendum goes on you cannot change peoples moral opinion and this particular argument almost always digenerates to name calling and hurt.

    This is a discussion that has nothing in common with firefighting and serves no useful purpose in the forum. Web-Team again(in public this time, so you won't ignore your duty) please end this discussion.

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