1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Ok, to go further off topic you actually have an policy/procedure that tells you what you can/can't argue about? Now THAT sounds like an administrator with way too much time on their hands.


    George, I will also go as far as to say, what is the definition or beginning of life? Meaning, some people have said it's when the mass of cells are able to fend for themselves and survive, some are saying the instant the cells first join, and some are saying a point in between that. Making that decision, in someone's own mind, would definitely play into where they stand with abortion decisions. I know, for me and my wife, the first sonogram picture we saw of our first child was way before there was any "human" form to it. In my head and heart, that was my child, not an unviable mass of tissue. I cannot imagine terminating that child (although at 10, she gets me pretty damn mad!)
    My use of the term "unviable mass of tissue" was purely sarcastic and satirical. Perhaps I should have out it in quotes.

    I believe (that should make some of you happy) life begins at conception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    BTW, the term is "moot".

    adj.
    Subject to debate; arguable: a moot question.

    Law. Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled.
    Of no practical importance; irrelevant.
    Oh well la ti da, I stand corrected.

    I only wish it were mute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manofire2
    You may win in your jurisdiction but not mine. My departments Policy and Procedure Manual States clearly (as I believe most departments do) that you will not engage in political or religious arguments while on duty. As Station Captain it is my duty to uphold the Departments policies and procedures.
    You may be allowed that policy in Canada, but here the first amendment pretty much quashes a policy like that. We have a little group here called the ACLU that would be just like flies on a gut pile over a policy like that.

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    ameryFD...

    Slavery was another issue that for the most part did not affect those in the north and was seen as perfectly legitimate in the south. It was a radical few who drove the abolitionist movement. While slavery was and is an abomination, again for the most part, I don't believe there was a massive outcry to end it in the country by the citizens.

    AND....before someone jumps my *** about my comments I am not saying slavery should still be going on and that it should ever occur for that matter. Just giving my take on the history I have read.

    As for what items get the most comments to our elected officials...is it mass numbers or the same few sending them over and over and over? If it is such an issue why hasn;t the law been changed? Again I believe because most Americans see it as a personal issue and no one else's business.

    For the most part it appears that the populace is tired of government intervention in the rights of the individual. Abortion is a right protected under the law. Simply stated if you care about it make a concerted effort to change the law if not it is little more than lip service. For me, unless my wife is raped, it is a non-issue to me personally.

    By the way I didn't take any of your comments personally because you commented on the content of my post and not on mr personally.

    Fyredup

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    Wow, first let me say that I find it amazing that the post in this thread have been some of the best that I have read in the forums, espically for a topic as hotly debated as this one. I not foolish enough to believe that anyone is going to change their minds about the subject but here is a hypothetical situation for you

    1.) Responsible man and women in relationship. Man and women have sex use common sense and birth control. Women gets pregnant. Man and women discuss having baby vs. abortion. Women wants baby. Man says they can't proplerly provide for baby. Women wants baby anyway. Women has baby. Man and women are broke, start fighting, split up. Man has to pay child support even though he cant afford it and wanted women to have abortion.

    2.) Man and women have sex. Man and women have sex use common sense and birth control. Women gets pregnant. Man and women discuss having baby vs. abortion. Women wants abortion. Man wants baby. Women has abortion anyway. Man lost his child.

    I know the two scenarios are simplfied but it does bring up an interesting questions.

    1. Should the man have a say in the abortion process?

    2. Why do the courts only take into account the father of the child once its born and not before?

    Your thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNY101TRUCK
    So your saying you should only have sex if you want to reproduce?
    No, But I am saying that by having sex you have to accept the consequences of what goes along with the action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3
    1. Should the man have a say in the abortion process?

    2. Why do the courts only take into account the father of the child once its born and not before?

    Your thoughts?
    Good post and here's my opinion. I see the issue as one of at what point does choice occur. I think the choice occured when the two had sex. Even if they are practicing Birth Control, there is an inherent risk of an unwated pregnacy. Personal Choice comes with personal consequences. When the two had sex, they made a choice. The father needs to be responsible for his choice, as does the mother. In the second scenario, the woman is allowed, by the courts to absolve herself of any consequence from the choice she and he made.

    The real argument regarding abortion, when all the dogmatic statements are thrown aside is, at what point does choice occur. I contend it occurs at the beginning. Others will disagree, and I understand that. However, my question to those who do not agree with choice occuring at the moment of sex is, when in your opinion does it occur?

    If choice occurs at sex, neither of the situations you illustrated would be relevant. However because our judicial system has put an arbitary time period on when a life is viable or not, it has opened up the scenarios you portrayed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3
    1.) Responsible man and women in relationship. Man and women have sex use common sense and birth control. Women gets pregnant. Man and women discuss having baby vs. abortion. Women wants baby. Man says they can't proplerly provide for baby. Women wants baby anyway. Women has baby. Man and women are broke, start fighting, split up. Man has to pay child support even though he cant afford it and wanted women to have abortion.

    2.) Man and women have sex. Man and women have sex use common sense and birth control. Women gets pregnant. Man and women discuss having baby vs. abortion. Women wants abortion. Man wants baby. Women has abortion anyway. Man lost his child.
    Tough questions. I've actually thought about this a lot before, and it's heartbreaking. Every fiber of my being says that I should not be forced to continue a pregnancy I do not want, or forced to end a pregnancy that I want, not even by the father. But I know that men are put into the above two situations constantly, and have no power. It is not fair, but I do not know how I would want it handled differently.

    All I can say is cover your own butt, so to speak. Take responsibility for your own birth control (use condoms even if she says she's on the pill), if you KNOW you don't want any more children get your tubes tied (men and women), and most importantly TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS WITH YOUR PARTNER or better yet BEFORE she's your partner... As has been said in earlier posts, we should all be aware that a potential "aftereffect" of sex is pregnancy - don't hide your head in the sand: think about it, talk about it, and don't be with (in the Biblical sense) someone who disagrees with you regarding what you would do if pregnancy happens.

    That said, no matter that I am pro-choice, no matter that I do not plan to have children... if I found myself pregnant right now, I honestly don't know what my choice would be. I'm damned glad I *have* a choice. My partner knows that I'm conflicted on what I would do - he knows that I might choose to continue the pregnancy. I'm glad he knows that - he's not going on the automatic assumption that because I'm pro-choice, I'd have an abortion. And thus he knows that even with birth control, he's taking a chance. And because we've talked about it, I know that although he is not planning on a child, he would not be horrified if it should happen. Men, TALK about these things with the women in your life - don't assume that you know what they would do.
    -------;- "Aaaaa!!"
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    Alright so assuming that we are all state educated here:

    What happens when there is no assumed risk, i.e. do the uninformed have differrent rights?
    Lets take an extreme example: child who was did not receive a state certified education therefore was not present for health education. As the child matures, he is told that if he/she has to have sex to at least use birth control...

    Said person uses birth control, yet manages a pregnancy.

    He/she was uninformed of the consequences, at that point is it tough luck due to poor education?
    (waiving of course the moral implications)

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    What happens when there is no assumed risk, i.e. do the uninformed have differrent rights?
    Lets take an extreme example: child who was did not receive a state certified education therefore was not present for health education. As the child matures, he is told that if he/she has to have sex to at least use birth control...

    Said person uses birth control, yet manages a pregnancy.

    He/she was uninformed of the consequences, at that point is it tough luck due to poor education?
    (waiving of course the moral implications)
    There is a fundamental problem with your post and that is the assumption that only people who take state sanctioned sex ed programs are the only people who can make informed decisions.

    First, your assumption is that only those people who receive an american education can make an informed decision.

    Secondly, its a parents responsiblility to teach their children that any action that they choose to take or not take will have consquences. It will never be the responsibility of any state certified health education program to educate my kids or anyone elses. I think that we as a society have lost sight of the fact that it is our responsibility as parents to educate our children, not the governments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcooke3
    its a parents responsiblility to teach their children that any action that they choose to take or not take will have consquences.

    I think that we as a society have lost sight of the fact that it is our responsibility as parents to educate our children, not the governments.
    Here here! I absolutely agree with these statements.


    PS - George, I understood your use of the unviable mass.


    Lets go one step further...if we, as parents, are responsible for our children, and somehow (we know how) our daughter gets pregnant while under the age of 18....do/should we, as parents, have any say?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I think it would think the "say" would increase the younger my daughter is. Let's face it, if she for some reason is pregnant at 14 and the doc's tell you that she cannot medically have a baby (it would kill or do physical harm), I would say the decision is mostly the parents. Over 16 and closer to 18, the say may not be totally the parents, but the fiscal responsibility may very well be.
    Its been a long time since I reviewed Planned Parenthood v. Casey, but my understanding was that under a certain age, at least one parent had to be consulted. I think it did away with the waiting period though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fpcfc137
    Alright so assuming that we are all state educated here:

    What happens when there is no assumed risk, i.e. do the uninformed have differrent rights?
    Lets take an extreme example: child who was did not receive a state certified education therefore was not present for health education. As the child matures, he is told that if he/she has to have sex to at least use birth control...

    Said person uses birth control, yet manages a pregnancy.

    He/she was uninformed of the consequences, at that point is it tough luck due to poor education?
    (waiving of course the moral implications)
    So it's the government's fault, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    So it's the government's fault, right?
    Its always the govts fault. Thats why I wear my aluminum foil hat and close the shades when I am on the computer.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Its always the govts fault. Thats why I wear my aluminum foil hat and close the shades when I am on the computer.
    Thanks nyckftbl !!

    Just washed the inside of my nose with diet rootbeer!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRider
    Thanks nyckftbl !!

    Just washed the inside of my nose with diet rootbeer!

    Haha, I bet that stung alittle!
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Lets go one step further...if we, as parents, are responsible for our children, and somehow (we know how) our daughter gets pregnant while under the age of 18....do/should we, as parents, have any say?
    I think we as parents can influence the final decision but I believe that the correct course of action would be to explain to her that she has decided to enter the adult world and adult decision and no matter what she decides we as her parent(s) will stand behind her decision.

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    Default you do not have the right or buisness

    to tell anyone how to live if does not affect you or anyone else but,their own.........you need to learn to stay out of the personal decission making of the people who are making that decission.....I for one do not force my moral or religous beliefs on anyone and I do not want someone else to force their's on me.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparky239
    to tell anyone how to live if does not affect you or anyone else but,their own.........you need to learn to stay out of the personal decission making of the people who are making that decission.....I for one do not force my moral or religous beliefs on anyone and I do not want someone else to force their's on me.......
    So if you want to have sex with a nine year old girl I shouldn't force my morals on you and stop you? We legislate morality every day in this country. Give me a break!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparky239
    .....I for one do not force my moral or religous beliefs on anyone and I do not want someone else to force their's on me.......
    Really???? That's funny because as a society mankind has been doing just that. Morals and religious beliefs are the basis for every single criminal justice system in the entire world. In a world where no one forces their moral and religious beliefs on others is called...................anarchy.

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    Laws have a moral basis. When these morals are shared by the majority of citizens, they remain on the books. When these morals are not shared by the majority of citizens, they disappear. There is a moral common ground in property laws and violent crime laws - laws that could be considered to legislate morality. There is no moral common ground on the abortion issue.

    Abortion has been around for millenia. They are not a new invention. Where in the bible does it say not to have an abortion?

    Which is a greater evil: requiring the state's intervention into a woman's medical privacy, or allowing for a small number of abortions, but preserving a woman's ability to make health choices without the intervention of the elected body?

    Throughout the world, the most effective way to reduce the number of abortions per capita is to increase the standard level of education and to increase the economic condition of the majority of people. Outlawing abortion just tends to make pregnant women take trips to another legal jurisdiction, or to resort to unlicensed, illegal, abortion providers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBrooks
    Which is a greater evil: requiring the state's intervention into a woman's medical privacy, or allowing for a small number of abortions, but preserving a woman's ability to make health choices without the intervention of the elected body?

    Throughout the world, the most effective way to reduce the number of abortions per capita is to increase the standard level of education and to increase the economic condition of the majority of people. Outlawing abortion just tends to make pregnant women take trips to another legal jurisdiction, or to resort to unlicensed, illegal, abortion providers.
    Which is the greater evil?
    Allow parents to beat their children because they do not want them, or provide the parents with a humane and legal way to put unwanted children to death?

    Pro-lifers view the unborn as humans. You think privacy is going to trump that? Your argument is meaningless to anyone who considers an unborn child a human like the rest of us.

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    [QUOTE=SBrooks]
    Abortion has been around for millenia. They are not a new invention. Where in the bible does it say not to have an abortion?
    QUOTE]

    Where does it say in the Constitution that abortion is legal?
    I also cannot remember when the law legalizing abortion was passed by both the House of Representatives and the Senate.Until then,it isn't a law,even if the Supreme Court says it is.They aren't supposed to be legislating from the bench with no vote on its passage by the people of this country or our duly constituted Representatives.

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    QUOTE]Abortion has been around for millenia. They are not a new invention. Where in the bible does it say not to have an abortion?[/QUOTE]

    1. God created life, making man in His own image and likeness to rule over the rest of creation. (Genesis 1:26-28)
    2. God loves and cares for human life, including the pre-born, transferring His image to them. (Psalm 139)
    3. Jesus, in His incarnation, identified fully with humanity, sanctifying conception through His participation in it. (Hebrews 2:14)
    4. Man was made to live forever. Death is the result of, and the punishment for, sin, and was never offered by God as a solution to problems. (Genesis 2:15-17)
    5. Human life is precious to God. Its wanton destruction is forbidden by God and invites His wrath. (Genesis 9:5-6; Revelation 21:8)
    6. Child sacrifice is particularly abhorrent to God, combining the shedding of innocent blood and idolatry. (Psalm 106:37-38)
    7. Man is commanded by God to reflect His view of human life by protecting it from wanton destruction. (Proverbs 24:11-12)
    8. Man is obligated to use law to reflect God's love and justice, providing alternatives to the destruction of human life. (Jeremiah 22:1-3; Matthew 22:37-40)
    9. Children are a gift from God for blessing the family, the Church and the world. (Psalm 127 and Psalm 128)
    10. God is in control of the "hard cases," using them for our good and His glory. (Exodus 4:10-12; Isaiah 45:9-12; John 9:11-13)


    Or

    Gen. 1:1-2,26-28 Creation of man Gen. 2:7-8,18,21-24 Creation of man and woman Gen. 4:8-16 The first killing of the innocent Ex. 20:1-17 The Decalogue Lev. 19:15-18 Love of your neighbor's life Deut. 30:15-20 Choose Life! Jeremiah 7:27-31 The rebuke of child sacrifice Ezekiel 23:36-39 Child sacrifice Wisdom 1:12-15 God did not make death. Wisdom 7:1-6 I was formed in the womb. 2 Kings 24:1-4 The exile occurred because innocent blood was shed. Proverbs 6:16-19 The Lord hates six things. Jeremiah 1:4-8 I called you from the womb. Isaiah 49:1-6 The Lord called me from the womb. Isaiah 49:14-17 Can a mother forget her infant? Isaiah 1:10-17 Do justice! Amos 5:21-24 Let justice roll down like a river! Psalm 72 He will save the weak from violence! Psalm 82 Rescue the weak! Psalm 139 You knit me together in the womb! Proverbs 24:8-12 Rescue those taken to death! Matt. 18:1-6,10-14 Do not despise the little ones. Matt. 25:31-46 Whatsoever you do to the least... Mark 10:13-16 He blessed children. Luke 1:39-45 The babe leapt in the womb. Luke 6:20-26 Beatitudes and woes Luke 10:29-37 The Good Samaritan is neighbor to anyone in need. Luke 16:19-31 The Lazarus of the 20th Century: The Unborn Child John 1:1-5 All things, all life, comes through Christ. John 10:7-15 The Good Shepherd came to give us life. John 11:17-27 Christ is the Life. John 14:1-6 Christ is the Life. 1 Cor. 15:51-58 The victory belongs to life; you do not labor in vain. Eph. 6:10-20 Be strong in this battle! James 1:22-27 Religion requires us to help the helpless. 1 John 3:11-18 Love rather than kill. Rev. 4:8-11 You have created all things. Rev. 21:1-5 Death shall be no more!
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


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    ...........
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


    IACOJ PROUD

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