+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 7 1234 ... Last
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default Hey Pro Choice Folks, Defend This!

    My son was born with a cleft lip and palate, left lambdoid craniosynostosis, right iris coloboma and almost total hearing loss. With a lot of help from God and the best children's hospital in the world, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, he is now an intelligent, active and extremely normal young man of 8 years old who is at or above grade level in every subject, while learning in a conventional class setting. I write this as a prelude to this article:
    Babies aborted for not being perfect

    The ethical storm over abortions has been renewed as it emerged that terminations are being carried out for minor, treatable birth defects.

    Late terminations have been performed in recent years because the babies had club feet, official figures show.

    Other babies were destroyed because they had webbed fingers or extra digits.

    Such defects can often be corrected with a simple operation or physiotherapy.

    The revelation sparked fears that abortion is increasingly being used to satisfy couples' desire for the 'perfect' baby.

    A leading doctor said people were right to be 'totally shocked' that abortions were being carried out for such conditions.

    Campaigners warned we are turning into a society that can no longer tolerate imperfection. Doctors were recently told they can now screen IVF embryos to try to weed out inherited cancers.

    Ethical groups fear parents are opting for abortions because they are not told of the support and help available if they continued with the pregnancy.

    Details of the terminations emerged as new figures revealed an alarming rise in the use of an abortion pill that has been linked to 10 deaths.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics show that between 1996 and 2004, 20 babies were aborted after 20 weeks because they had a club foot.

    It is one of the most common birth defects in Britain, affecting one in 1,000 babies each year. That means around 600 to 700 babies are born annually in the UK with the problem, which causes the feet to point downwards and in severe cases can cause a limp.

    However it can be corrected without surgery using splints, plaster casts and boots. Naomi Davis, a leading paediatrician at Manchester Children's Hospital who specialists in correcting club feet, said: 'I think it is reasonable to be totally shocked that abortion is being offered for this.

    'It is entirely treatable. I can only think it is lack of information.'

    Figures also show that four babies were aborted since 1996 because they were found to have webbed fingers or extra digits, which can be sorted out with simply surgery.

    Remarkable pictures recently have revealed how at just 23 weeks baby in the womb appears to smile, yawn and flinch in pain.

    In 2004 it emerged a baby was aborted at 28 weeks after scans showed it had a cleft palate. Curate Joanna Jepson tried to ensure criminal charges were brought against the two doctors involved but the authorities last year decided against prosecution.

    She however vowed to continue in her fight to make terminations illegal after 24 weeks and to ensure cleft palates were not included within the term 'serious handicap' and used to justify late abortions.

    Ms Jepson reacted angrily to news of the club foot abortions.

    'The law was not designed for this,' she said. 'Actions like these are fostering a disposable attitude to human life and I'm extremely concerned it is going on.

    'I am appalled that the medical profession is allowing or even suggesting abortions for these conditions.'

    Sue Banton, founder of the group Steps for parents of children with foot disorders, said last year one couple decided to terminate a pregnancy at 25 weeks after discovering their baby would have a section of foot missing.

    'We gave them other families to talk to, but they just didn't want to know,' she said. 'It is terrible.

    'I know lots of perfectly nice people with this condition and you just can't imagine them not being here.'

    Pippa Spriggs from Cambridge, whose son Isaac is celebrating his second birthday in July, was dismayed when as scan showed her baby had a club foot.

    'Abortion certainly was not openly advised but it was made clear to me it was available,' she said.

    'In fact he has been treated and the condition has now slowed him down at all.'

    Julia Millington, of the Alive and Kicking Campaign, said: 'It is all about our perceptions of perfection.

    'Increasingly things are moving along the lines where nothing is good enough.

    'It seems we can no longer tolerate any imperfection.

    'Babies are at the mercy of ultrasound scans and what they may disclose.'

    Michaela Aston, from the pro-life group LIFE, said: 'One sympathises for many of the parents of these unborn children aborted after disability has been detected.

    'What information are they being given by healthcare professionals so that they can make a truly informed choice?

    'We suspect that many parents make the decision to opt for abortion in complete ignorance of the help and support available to children with disabilities and their families.

    'For this, health care professionals must shoulder a large part of the blame.

    'If, as a society, we are truly committed to equality for people with disabilities then such blatant discrimination against the disabled unborn must stop.'

    But Jane Fisher of the charity Antenatal Results and Choices defended the right of parents to terminate pregnancies when defects are found. 'This is not part of a move towards designer babies,' she said.

    'These are difficult and painful issues.'
    This article references the situation in the UK. But I have no reason to believe that this does not occur in the US with the same frequency.

    Let's see all you pro-choice people jump into your culture of death mode and defend this horrific practice.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas,Nevada
    Posts
    1,012

    Default addendum

    Well said George. Let's take this one step further. How about killing the child after birth becuase something happened to it that caused a defect or disability. In my case our first child was severely brain damaged by the DPT vaccine. She went into severe convulsions and a high fever from a reaction to the vaccine. Or maybe some kind of accident leaves the child paralyzed. We love our child and would not trade or kill her just because she is not perfect. In fact she is loved just as much if not more than her normal healthy sister. Perfection is absurd in a world full of imperfection. Thanks George and God bless.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lvwrench
    Perfection is absurd in a world full of imperfection. Thanks George and God bless.
    Well said.

    This would be particularly true in the case of children.

    Stay safe.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,230

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    This article references the situation in the UK. But I have no reason to believe that this does not occur in the US with the same frequency.
    Based on what? What do you have to support your claim?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    Can't even try to justify the above, but I still believe in abortion for a very few certain circumstances. For the above, I'll agree, that is pretty disturbing.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    252

    Default

    You can legislate at what stage of pregnancy abortion can be legal/illegal, but you'll never be able to legislate what REASON is legitimate for having an abortion... Whether a woman doesn't want "a baby" or doesn't want "this baby", it comes down to the same thing - should a woman who becomes pregnant have to carry that pregnancy to term if she does not want to? And the answer to that just can't be argued, it seems to me - each person has very strong beliefs about that question, and I have never seen anyone's feelings about this one changed (in either direction) by arguing... Occasionally, someone's life experiences may lead them to change their opinion over time, though.
    -------;- "Aaaaa!!"
    Remember - always wear your helmet around one-eyed women with pike poles

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baileydonk
    You can legislate at what stage of pregnancy abortion can be legal/illegal, but you'll never be able to legislate what REASON is legitimate for having an abortion... Whether a woman doesn't want "a baby" or doesn't want "this baby", it comes down to the same thing - should a woman who becomes pregnant have to carry that pregnancy to term if she does not want to? And the answer to that just can't be argued, it seems to me - each person has very strong beliefs about that question, and I have never seen anyone's feelings about this one changed (in either direction) by arguing... Occasionally, someone's life experiences may lead them to change their opinion over time, though.
    I never asked anyone to change their opinion. However, if you can justify the actions that are outlined in this article by arguing that a woman can terminate a pregnancy out of convenience, that would speak volumes about you as a person.

    BTW, getting pregnant is not a magical, mystical event.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    252

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    I never asked anyone to change their opinion. However, if you can justify the actions that are outlined in this article by arguing that a woman can terminate a pregnancy out of convenience, that would speak volumes about you as a person.

    BTW, getting pregnant is not a magical, mystical event.
    George, my post was not directed at you personally. Nor was it intended to "justify" anything in that article or "defend this" as the thread title asked me to. I was not writing about ethical considerations, just legal ones. From a completely logical standpoint, how could someone's reason for an abortion really be used as a criterion for whether she is allowed to have one? Who could possibly be the legal judge of that kind of thing? Personally, you can judge any way you see fit - including judging me as a person if you so choose.

    I honestly do have the utmost respect for those who stand by their deep-rooted beliefs, particularly when it comes to this issue. I shall bow out of this conversation now.
    -------;- "Aaaaa!!"
    Remember - always wear your helmet around one-eyed women with pike poles

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baileydonk
    George, my post was not directed at you personally. Nor was it intended to "justify" anything in that article or "defend this" as the thread title asked me to. I was not writing about ethical considerations, just legal ones. From a completely logical standpoint, how could someone's reason for an abortion really be used as a criterion for whether she is allowed to have one? Who could possibly be the legal judge of that kind of thing? Personally, you can judge any way you see fit - including judging me as a person if you so choose.

    I honestly do have the utmost respect for those who stand by their deep-rooted beliefs, particularly when it comes to this issue. I shall bow out of this conversation now.
    The word "IF" was the operative word in my previous post.

    The word "CONVENIENCE" is the operative word in my response to this post of yours.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    spearsm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Lowndes, MS USA
    Posts
    742

    Default Club foot

    This issue of club foot hits home.

    My son was born Bi lateral Club foot. Extreme.

    It took 6 surgeries per foot from age 6 months to 1 year. They had to make a heal on each foot and major modifications to the muscles and tendons. Doctor Killian (B-ham Childrens Clinic. BTW this doctor is by far the best I have seen around this area in these matters.) did say that Alex may not play sports and have foot problems.

    He is soon to go for his green belt in Karate.
    He loves baseball although for good reasons, he is not the fastest runner ( You should see his stubby little feet ). Did I mention that he never complains about his feet?
    Straight A student- a perfect child @ 9 years old

    Abort? Never an option. Would we? No. I can't even phathom the idea.


    Don't even get me started with my twin 7 year old girls, one of whom which suffered a brain bleed and other ailments pre and post birth. BTW she also had one club foot which is perfect now thanks to God and Dr. Killian.


    There was no question. Never.
    Last edited by spearsm; 05-30-2006 at 06:23 PM. Reason: Thought I hit preview.
    YGBSM!
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    If all you have is a hammer, then your problems start to look like nails.
    ___________________

    IACOJ
    Southern Division.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baileydonk
    From a completely logical standpoint, how could someone's reason for an abortion really be used as a criterion for whether she is allowed to have one? Who could possibly be the legal judge of that kind of thing?
    The same way they judge "hate crimes". You are judged on the reason for your crime, your thoughts and feelings, not just the crime itself. People are judged like this every day. Just because you have a strong opinion about this does not make the other side illogical. People need to start behaving responsibly, and if they are unwilling to avoid an unwanted pregnancy, step up and take the consequences of their actions.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    FDNY101TRUCK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9-0-8
    Posts
    789

    Default

    and if they are unwilling to avoid an unwanted pregnancy, step up and take the consequences of their actions.
    But they don't have to because you can get an abortion. I mean this is just my opinion on abortions and I know there is someone out there who will disagree but I still think its their own choice, you want to have an abortion then ok.
    NEVER FORGET!
    9/11/01

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    George my friend.....you have got a standing ovation from me here in NW Ohio.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  14. #14
    makes good girls go bad
    BLSboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    On the beach, Fla/OCNJ
    Posts
    2,859

    Default

    George, we have disagreed on several occasions, but this article brought tears to my eyes. See, I was born with Bi-Lateral Club Foot, and the Docs though I would never run. I ran. They said I could never join the military. I joined the US Navy. Although that was something that never came to fruition, it was for different reasons. I am now a Firefighter/EMT, and I LOVE what I do. If I had been aborted just b/c of my feet, just wow. People expect so much. I am just speechless. A PHYSICAL DISABILITY MAY NOT BE DISABLING.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
    Member, IACOJ.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-DTRT-RFB-KTF
    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,034

    Default

    The abortion debate will never be solved with emotions and finger pointing. The simple fact is it is the law of the land. And in being so I don't believe there has to be a reason given for wanting an abortion.

    While my wife and I discussed at length when we were first married if we could ever consider aborting a child and we decided that it was highly unlikely that we would it is not my business to interfere with other people's legal rights. Do I believe that the reasons stated in the above story are valid reasons for an abortion? No, I don't, and my wife and I never would have aborted a child for having a club foot or cleft pallet.

    The strangest part about this whole debate is the decades of hand wringing over it and yet the law still stands...seems the majority don't really care one way of the other about it.

    FyredUp

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    The simple fact is it is the law of the land.
    For now.......

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,034

    Default

    GeorgeWendtCFI

    For now.......
    George,

    I don't want to battle with you on this topic. I certainly disagree with aborting babies for minor birth defects that can be corrected or even for some that cannot.

    But the simple fact is abortion has been the law of the land for over 30 years. There have been many attempts to change the law and they have all failed at a federal level. Despite the terrorist tactics of the fringe wackos of the anti abortion crowd that feel any means to stop abortion is okay up to and including murder.

    I honestly believe that if enough people really cared about this issue our politicians would be bombarded with calls, letters, and e-mails demanding a change. I think most people believe this is a personal private matter and is no one else's business.

    Fyredup

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Despite the terrorist tactics of the fringe wackos of the anti abortion crowd that feel any means to stop abortion is okay up to and including murder.
    Just for the record, I agree with you on this statement. Terrorism is wrong no matter what the cause.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    tbonetrexler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Magnolia, Delaware US
    Posts
    527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI
    My son was born with a cleft lip and palate, left lambdoid craniosynostosis, right iris coloboma and almost total hearing loss. With a lot of help from God and the best children's hospital in the world, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, he is now an intelligent, active and extremely normal young man of 8 years old who is at or above grade level in every subject, while learning in a conventional class setting. I write this as a prelude to this article:


    This article references the situation in the UK. But I have no reason to believe that this does not occur in the US with the same frequency.

    Let's see all you pro-choice people jump into your culture of death mode and defend this horrific practice.

    No matter what you say George, it dosent matter, because abortion is legal and has been upheld at least twice in the federal courts (roe v wade and casey v planned parenthood). Therefore, I have nothing to defend. It is a womans legal right to do what she wants with her body, and if that includes no longer bearing a child, then so be it.

    I am happy to hear that your son made such an amazing recovery.
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

    Actual lyric: Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight, get down tonight.
    (KC & The Sunshine Band "Do A Little Dance")

    My thoughts are mine alone and do not represent the thoughts of any Organization to which I am affiliated.

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Marietta, OH
    Posts
    39

    Default

    Home come no one ever hears the whole story of Roe v Wade?

    The young lady that was asking for an abortion was never raped; she never wanted the abortion and was forced to bring the lawsuit by her mother. Guess what...she had the baby and is the leading advocate to overturn that horrible ruling. Right now there are 2 families wanting to adopt for every child that is put up for adoption. I am glad my parents gave me a chance at life because I know I have sure enjoyed myself these 21 years. My parents had the option to abort late term because I had a heart defect and there was a good chance my mom would die while having me. Guess what, by the grace of God we both lived and are healthy today.

    Here my rant about stem cell research, I do not oppose it on non embryonic stem cells but I am against it in every way if people are going to kill babies for some cells. How many thing have they cured with embryonic stem cells...zero. How many with adult stem cells....hundreds! Our bodies are full of stem cells, our fat contains thousands of them (and we know America has enough fat).

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,034

    Default

    jkuhn22...

    I am glad that you and your mom survived. But what makes you think you or anyone else should have the right to decide for any other family who is more important to the family?

    Let's suppose we have a young couple with 2 young children. Then the news comes that she is pregnant again, but as the pregnancy developes there is trouble with the baby that is life threatening to both mom and the baby. An abortion done in a medical setting by a skilled and trained doctor gives a good survival rate to the mom. Giving birth has a high chance of killing one or both of them. So to recap...continue the pregnancy and risk everything or abort and be there for the kids you already had and your husband. Maybe some would make the same decision your mom did, and maybe some would decide to abort and be there for sure for the family already alive. Either way THEY decided not you or some religion or the government.

    I just shake my head at the fact that so many in this country want to deprive people of their rights under the law. Given any other circumstance you would be wringing your hands, or marching in the streets if the government tried to meddle in your private affairs. Unless you are the mother or father involved in the decision to abort it is frankly none of your business.

    FyredUp

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Do you have reason to believe it DOES occur in the US?

    Do the US and the UK have the same laws on abortion, especially late-term?

    You of all people I wouldn't expect this statement without all the facts. Some cop eh?

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    DaSharkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    4,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1
    Do you have reason to believe it DOES occur in the US?

    Do the US and the UK have the same laws on abortion, especially late-term?

    You of all people I wouldn't expect this statement without all the facts. Some cop eh?
    I have done OB/Gyn rotations and I can tell you that it is done and a lot more frequently than you might like.

    Every mother with competant pre-natal care is offered an Alpha Feto-protein test. This is performed to determine if there is a chromosomal anomaly with the fetus; especially Downe's Syndrome.

    Thing is that there is no way of determining how affected the child will be until about 2 years of age. Yet abortion is offered (and often accepted) to these mothers by a large number of providers. The offer is taken up by many mothers as well.

    It does go on, and the empiric evidence is there - regardless of any evidence based study that may or may not have been completed.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    tbonetrexler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Magnolia, Delaware US
    Posts
    527

    Post

    Everyone also never seems to know that roe v wade is settled law. You cannot overturn the ruling. The new case that you would have to reverse is Casey v Planned Parenthood. And the Court will never overturn it. Chief Justice Roberts (the swing vote really) swore, while under oath in senate confirmation hearings, that he would not overturn precedent law. Casey vs. Planned Parenthood is precedent law.

    Another thing to think about is that the law is not always morally right. look at sex offender laws. Most people could make a moral argument that they should be put to death. yet it is not a charge in which one faces the eath pentelty.

    And as i said before, legal abortion is the law in this country and will likely be the law for years to come. A womans right to chose what to do with her body is one of her protected rights and cannot be violated.
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

    Actual lyric: Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight, get down tonight.
    (KC & The Sunshine Band "Do A Little Dance")

    My thoughts are mine alone and do not represent the thoughts of any Organization to which I am affiliated.

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    Everyone also never seems to know that roe v wade is settled law.

    Another thing to think about is that the law is not always morally right. look at sex offender laws. Most people could make a moral argument that they should be put to death. yet it is not a charge in which one faces the eath pentelty.

    And as i said before, legal abortion is the law in this country and will likely be the law for years to come. A womans right to chose what to do with her body is one of her protected rights and cannot be violated.
    I don't think that anyone was arguing whether it was a law or not. I think the thread was started to debate the morality of the law. If your only comment on the issue is "It's the law" then you really don't add much to the debate, do you?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 7 1234 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Hey folks...
    By rbango in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-25-2003, 08:22 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register