1. #1
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    Default Past experience w/ Rosenbauer anyone?

    My department is looking to purchase a Rosenbauer 1500 gal pumper tanker. Any past experience involving rosenbauer apparatus would be greatly appreciated. Dont want to get stuck with a lemon. Thanks in advance.

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    From what I've seen, you'll probably be alright if you did good specs and get a reliable chassis. My career dept. runs them, they haven't been too bad. We've had some fits with them, but a lot of that's been chassis or aerial issues, not so much Rosenbauer built components. We've about decided if we didn't run them so hard, they'd hold up a lot better.

    My vollie dept. has a 2,500 gallon pumper/tanker on order from them. Not really who the firefighters wanted, but that's what the council went with. I think it'll be a good truck, but we got real tight on the specs to hopefully eliminate any issues that might cause problems.

    I might also note that all the trucks I'm talking about were built at the Lyons, SD plant. Don't know if the different plants have different quality or not.

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    Default Rosenbauer

    No real hands on experience with them, but we did look carefully at them for our recently ordered engine (See "Toyne wins"). The examples of their products that I have seen and the presentation that they made to us leaves me with a generally favorable impression.

    We were looking at a stainless steel body which would have been produced at their Wyoming, Minn. plant. This would be better known as General Safety. The Lyons, S.D. facility would be Central. I understand that Rosenbauer is in the process of phasing out those names in favor of their own. I don't have any real background with Central, but I've heard it both ways.

    In Genearal Safety's proposal they did make some changes that were not acceptable to us. That's not to say that it would have resulted in a bad truck, but we felt that it would not have been what we wanted. They weren't unwilling to do it our way, but doing so would have put the price well above what we wound up paying.

    One important lesson buried in here - know not only what you want, but why you want that and not some alternative. In many cases we specified in detail some of our components. We did this because of what we have learned by experience what holds up. We were able to cost-justify our choices by viewing them in terms of total cost of ownership over the life of the vehicle.

    I'd say Good Luck! but if you can KNOW what you want and why, and can make sure you get it, you'll also make your own luck.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    I have help spec several rigs recently and Rosenbauer (Central States) has been the low bidder on several. The Colorado Springs FD has a bunch of them on HME chassis and they run them pretty hard. The local community college has a basic pumper from Central States and it works just fine. It doesn't have anything special on it, just a basic fire truck. My department is waiting to award a pumper this month; it's between Smeal and Rosenbauer. For the money, they seem to be very good rigs.

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    Thank you all for your help. Smeal man said they were junk. Sorta what I expected for one vendor to say about another. Thanks again.

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    Best way to find out about manufacturers is to get a customer list and start making calls.

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    Default Ethics

    That's sort of a statement of his ethical standards. Smeal guy here wouldn't say anything bad about anybody, even said good things about some of his competitors. A good sales person doesn't have to run down the competition. He (she) shows you why his product is better, or at the very least presents you an equal product at a lower cost.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    Quote Originally Posted by belgrade302
    My department is looking to purchase a Rosenbauer 1500 gal pumper tanker. Any past experience involving rosenbauer apparatus would be greatly appreciated. Dont want to get stuck with a lemon. Thanks in advance.
    We have had a International 4900 500pto/1800gallon Central States since January 1995. We have had no real issues with the truck other than normal use it and sometimes things happen issues. It is a very basic tanker with dry side configuration much like a plain engine. Lowside compartments both sides, 24/14 on the right, 3 lengths of suction on the left. Newton dump and 3" dump/fill combo as well as a 2.5" fill at the rear. It can make the attempt at any fire with a couple 1.75" crosslays, ladders, scba etc. It is simple to pump, Neutral, hit mode switch and pump is in gear pull the tank to pump valve and discharge you got 1800 gallons to play with. (Being a rural area and limited daytime manpower (sometimes) due to being POC, a very simple truck that almost anyone can handle is a good thing to have. ) It has a 300hp 530 motor, allison auto.

    The only thing that I would change is going to a non-mechanical seal on the Hale AP-50 or got to a Q-Pak. That is not a Central States Issue.

    The 4400 International turns better that would also be a good improvement.

    We also have a 1999 Central Centrion. It has had a few more issues than the tanker, but it is also a more complex truck. But, you use trucks and things will happen. What issues we have had have been taken care of with working with the service center or Factory. I dealt with the President himself on a couple occassions, no issues with dealing with them.

    I think it comes down to what you want the truck to be and who your sales/service will be after the sale. Any factory/manufacturer can make a mistake, the service center is going to fix them.

    The biggest thing is to honestly look at the problem and say is it the manufacturer or component or what we are doing to it that has caused the problem?

    We have just ordered a HME/AhrensFox. It was not that we have had issues with the Central States trucks but the Central Dealer in our area has changed and the whole Rosenbaur New England presence has been up in the air. We wanted to make sure we had service after the sale. That is why we looked at the three dealers we did. They "can" all build a truck, it is the service that can get you.

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    We've got three Central units that we run pretty regularly.Pros: Unit will be on time and on budget.We've had few problems with ours but if you do and you're in New England you're in trouble unless you can fix it yourself.Service after the sale is,at least here,NON EXISTANT. Unless that changes,our next one will probably come from another vendor.We've had little trouble with ours but I prefer a company with local support that ACTUALLY supports their product. T.C.

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    Rosenbauer America or better known to some as Central States and General Safety are NOT new by any means to the fire apparatus business. Both are well established builders.

    We have two Engines on order with the General Division with delivery in August. Our experience so far has been excellent. General builds very high end stuff. I have also viewed a few of their Central trucks and appear to be a well built truck.

    The bodies by Central are similar to an E-One body, extruded and formed plate combo. The General body is like no other. It's made from massive extrusions to form a bullet proof body, hence the 20 year warranty.
    Please note that the mentioned bodies are both aluminum versions. They do both offer stainless as well.

    Like any manufacturer though, it all comes down to how YOU spec it.

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    When we were specing out our new tanker last year, we looked at Danko, Central/Rosenbauer/Pierce with trucks brought to the station. The truck that was brought for us to look at was on its way to be delivered and we weren't real impressed with it. I am sure it was a fine truck but some of the small things just didn't look good: paint overspray, tank coating overspray on the cab, decals pealing, some spots not painted, same color of wiring was used on all wires going from the cab to the back of the truck, etc...

    It was small things, and I am sure everything would have worked just fine, but it just looked bad in spots to see stuff like that. We did talk to some other departements around that also have Central stuff, one loves it, another hates it, so everyone will have their own impressions.

    If possible, get trucks out to look at or better yet, try and get to the plant where they would be building your truck and talk to your neighbors, see what experiences they have had.

    BTW, we ended up going with Danko, but since you are looking for a pumper/tanker, Danko would be out and they would recommend Smeal to ya.

    Bruce
    Bruce Arp
    2nd Asst. Chief
    Weston Volunteer Fire & Resuce
    http://www.westonfire.com

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    This is one of our new rosenbauer aerials... I can't really give an impression of their end product, but this one seems to fit the spec written fairly well. FYI.. its a Rosenbauer/General/RKAerial/Spartan Truck. I have the details if anyone is interested. And yes, the truck behind it is ours. And the one behind it, and the one behind that one, and so on, and so on.

    Iluv4201
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    Last edited by Iluv4201; 06-13-2006 at 08:02 PM.

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    Dude! You were at the same plant I was, positioned next to the same guy with his hand in the frame of the photo standing in the exact same spot that I was! Amazing!

    I don't care that someone lifted my image from another site (I have no idea if someone forwarded this to you, so I'm not blaming *you*), but what a shock to see my photo on the forum I most frequently browse on Firehouse.

    By the way - if you want more shots of your new rigs, I think I have a few more from when I was at the plant last week. Let me know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    Dude! You were at the same plant I was, positioned next to the same guy with his hand in the frame of the photo standing in the exact same spot that I was! Amazing!

    I don't care that someone lifted my image from another site (I have no idea if someone forwarded this to you, so I'm not blaming *you*), but what a shock to see my photo on the forum I most frequently browse on Firehouse.

    By the way - if you want more shots of your new rigs, I think I have a few more from when I was at the plant last week. Let me know.
    Were you the guy wearing the red polo shirt?

    I got this shot off of our union site... so i'll let them know they owe 'npfd801' full credit for the shot. Sorry 'bout that. And any more pics would be great - i'll make sure you get proper credit this time.

    Iluv4201

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    I just thought it was kind of ironic to see the photos here - and trust me, I don't claim to take decent photos, so you won't see me throw a fit like some folks would have. Some guys get absolutely rabid when their stuff shows up without their express permission.

    Shoot me a PM or an e-mail with an address to send the rest of what I have. It isn't much, but I'm happy to share them.

    No red polo shirt for me. If you were at the plant, I was wandering around the rigs at some point when a couple of guys were sitting up on the aerial sections chatting.
    Last edited by npfd801; 06-15-2006 at 11:34 AM.

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    Thats one bright green
    This space for rent

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    Cool Our Rosenbaeur...

    My Paid-Call Department runs a Rosenbauer Type 3 Brush Engine...... All I have heard is positives, not one negative. Trust me, if there was anything wrong with the unit we have a great testing ground for a first due area...... I am trying to get my Carreer Department to also look at this Engine.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    We have a commercial chassis ( purchased through a state contract, real good price for 7400 international) side mount witth CAFS, 1000 gal tank, 1250 pump.

    We asked for several specific options and they were the onlu one that wanted to do exactly as we wanted.

    Delivery date supposed to be december 06

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    Default ?

    can somone clarify the difference between central, general, and centurion for me/ there website didnt help. they dont by chance have any custom chassiss do they?

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    Default Central/General

    Central Divisionis the former Central States of Lyons, S.D. They do primarily aluminum. General Division is the former General Safety of Wyoming, Minn. They do mostly steel, including stainless. Both have been acquired by the Austrian company Rosenbauer, one of the largest, if not the largest fire apparatus company in the world. Another name, Sterling fits in there somewhere, too. There are some Rosenbauer chassis that are being built by Spartan for Rosenbauer. They do have some proprietary Rosenbauer features, but my understanding is that they pretty much standard Spartans. npfd801 could probably give a more authoritative answer.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    Rosenbauer Central Division (the old Central States) primarily builds aluminum bodies which are called the Central Body.

    They also build the Centurion at the Central division which is a stainless steel body.

    Rosenbauer General Division (the old General Safety) primarily builds extruded aluminum bodies known as the General body. The bodies are built from massive extrusions and are built like tank.

    The Sterling is basically a knock off of the General, except its Stainless Steel.

    There is also the Rosenbauer Aerials Division (the old RK aerials) in Fremont NE.

    The majority of the chassis's Rosenbauer uses are in fact Spartans. Spartan builds a chassis for Rosenbauer called the Commander AT. Spartan also builds a chassis for Smeal. They are Spartan Chassis's with a different fascia on the font.

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    The last two posts are very good. Chiefeng's comment about most of General's stuff being stainless probably isn't really true - I'd say the majority of the stuff coming out of the plant are the heavy extruded bodies, but they do a fair amount of stainless work.

    One thing I think that needs to be said about Rosenbauer's product line is the diversity. You can also get a "Fireline" body which is a galvanneal body, as well as a third stainless choice called the "Silverstar," which is another stainless body poised, featured and designed to compete with some other brand's stainless offerings.

    Add in the Metz line and RK lineup, and you have a builder that has a lot to offer.

    One last thing, Rosenbauer isn't afraid to build your truck, and won't try to push "their" preferred design down your throat...

    **DISCLAIMER*** Yup, I sell it. **DISCLAIMER**

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    Well here's the latest on our Central Mistakes pumper. I will defineately say " BUYER BEWARE":

    Our 1999 HME/Central States Fireline engine has developed cracks in the cab where the rear facing seats mount. Both seats have cracks in 90 degree bent floor pan and spider web cracks around each of the through bolts which hold them down. These were found during Safety Stand Down, when our crews did a thorough inspection of the apparatus. THe cracks are barely visible when the nothing is moving but one member saw one when another climbed into the seat. Further inspection from underneath (after remving road dust) revealed the spider cracks.

    The Chief called Rosenbauer Central and was told that it was an HME issue (so much for them standing behind anything). The rep was also told about the paint /rust/rotting on the body which is requiring a major repaint job. The rep asked if this was all that was wrong with the truck after 6 years! He didn't know why we'd complain! The Chief told him that he had a mind to paint on the truck "$185,000 POS!! and park it on the apron if they didn't want to stand behind their work. The Rep said, Go Ahead!

    Two major lessons, though we really already knew at this point:

    1. Buy Sole Source. Rosenbauer proved that it will point fingers at the other guys on their appartatus and their certainly not the first.

    2. Beware of HME! Yet another cheap built cab issue. After the number of quality issues, wiring fires, parts falling of the doors and now the seats falling to stay safely mounted to the cab, we defineately have to say their products is awful and in this case dangerous. Still remains to be seen if they'll stand behind the cab and try to atleast be stand up about fixing mistakes. We have seen improvements in their fit and finish in newer models.

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    Is the body on your Rosenbauer pumper built from Gavaneal steel , and I agree stay away from the HME chassis and spec a " Spartan " chassis cab !...

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    RFDACM,

    Could you please be a little more specific when describing the "rust, rotting" problems with your body. Are they rock chips and general wear and tear that have gone unattended and therefore rusted?Like was already mentioned, is it galvaneal? Your location in the north east may just play a role in the rust as opposed to a truck located in the southern states. Most manufacturers will give a 7 year warranty max on paint. Rust and perforation are another story.

    I would have to agree that the cab issues are an HME problem, not Central States. I don't believe that Rosenbauer claims to be a "single source" supplier. And besides, sometimes your better off to speak directly to the manufacturer of the component your dealing with. That has been my experience anyways.

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