1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    10

    Default Speedlays and the Triple Layer Hose Lay

    Looking for any experiences in using the Triple Layer hoselay in a Speedlay bed. Specifically, whether 250 ft of 2 in. DJ hose (with a pistol grip TFT) in a Triple Layer configuration will fit the "standard" Speedlay bed.

    LDR20TRK

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Chauffeur6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Metro NY
    Posts
    613

    Default

    Our dept packs our crosslays using the triple layer load, but we generally use 200' of 2", not 250', with either TFT pistol grip automatics or smooth bores. On our older trucks with shorter/narrower crosslay beds, it's usually a tight fit. Not too bad on the newer trucks with deeper/wider crosslays. Also, the type and age of hose makes a huge difference. Cotton double jacket hose is very flexible and folds up much more compactly, especially when it has some age on it. Nylon double jacket hose is pretty tough stuff, and fairly bulky. It gets a little better with age, but nowhere near cotton jacketed.

    Basically, you'll have to experiment on your own to see what does or doesn't work for your dept with your specific apparatus, and more importantly, the brand/type of hose you use. The hose usually makes all the difference with this type of hose pack.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 06-02-2006 at 03:25 PM.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    Personally I find the triple layer hose load a pain in the butt. Unless you are going straight off the rig it is a mess to unload with one firefighter. It is a pain to reload and get right everytime.

    Personally I prefer the minute man load or the flat load either with ears or bundled. Both of these loads are easy to load and easy for one person to lay out.

    The biggest question for you is this. Were those speedlay beds designed for 2 inch or 1 3/4 inch hose? If they were designed for 1 3/4 inch hose your 250 feet of 2 inch may not even fit in the bed.

    FyredUp

  4. #4
    dazed and confused
    Resq14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Personally I find the triple layer hose load a pain in the butt. Unless you are going straight off the rig it is a mess to unload with one firefighter. It is a pain to reload and get right everytime.

    Personally I prefer the minute man load or the flat load either with ears or bundled. Both of these loads are easy to load and easy for one person to lay out.
    Exactly what I would've wanted to say.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
    Click this to search FH Forums!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    I agree on the flat load, far more versatile. We use a minuteman off the rear of the rig and flat loads with the top 50' bundled on the cross lays. All lines get carried and laid out, dumping it all and dragging it is a mess.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    94

    Default

    The department I work for use the triple layer exclusively on all preconnects. Its esay to deploy no matter where you need to take it, and you only have a third of the distance to travel when its deployed. Its a tight squeeze to get 200' of 1 3/4" in the "standard" E-One hose beds. Practice makes Perfect for strecthing it correctly,effectively, and efficently.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    fireman4949's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Tallahassee, Florida
    Posts
    2,323

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ecfr1978
    The department I work for use the triple layer exclusively on all preconnects. Its esay to deploy no matter where you need to take it, and you only have a third of the distance to travel when its deployed. Its a tight squeeze to get 200' of 1 3/4" in the "standard" E-One hose beds. Practice makes Perfect for strecthing it correctly,effectively, and efficently.
    Ditto!




    Kevin
    Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
    IAFF Local 2339
    K of C 4th Degree
    "LEATHER FOREVER"
    Member I.A.C.O.J.
    http://www.tfdfire.com/
    "Fir na tine"

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Sidney, IL
    Posts
    6

    Default

    We run 200' triples. We put loops on the bottom to clear the "bundle" from the speedlay when going 90 degrees to the rig. As long as you hold onto the nozzle and the first fold it will work itself out in roughly 66'. We also loop the other side of the speedlay to "pull over" when you want both lines off the same side of the rig. We have no pistol grips on our nozzles.
    We converted from minutemans. I was skeptical at first, but its been 8 years now and the fires still get put out. Training is the key with this load in my opinion. All hoseloads have pros and cons. I've also seen all of the loads mentioned screwed up too on the fireground.
    We also have 3 different types of crosslays with-in the department. 4 Engines Co. have standard crosslays. 1 has a speedlay below the top mounted pump, and 1 Engine has removable hose tray thing that loads on the ground.
    Each load is the same, but a little different to pack it on.

    Chad

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    111

    Default

    We used the triple layer...no more. There are too many cons with this system. Depolying deep into larger home, businesses with triple leaves no hose "bundle" on your shoulder to deploy once you get near the fire. We found out that you always have to "drag" the triple layer to get it where you want it, ie, into the fire. If the need arises where you should need to extend a hose or go off a gate. The triple cannot be broken into the "shoulder bundle" since it's all one big jumbled mess. Loading and getting it just right takes to much ROOM and TIME. No way, never again. And get rid of your TFT's while you're at it, ever put a flow meter on one of those guys??

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    The North East
    Posts
    489

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by buckdog
    We used the triple layer...no more. There are too many cons with this system. Depolying deep into larger home, businesses with triple leaves no hose "bundle" on your shoulder to deploy once you get near the fire. We found out that you always have to "drag" the triple layer to get it where you want it, ie, into the fire. If the need arises where you should need to extend a hose or go off a gate. The triple cannot be broken into the "shoulder bundle" since it's all one big jumbled mess. Loading and getting it just right takes to much ROOM and TIME. No way, never again. And get rid of your TFT's while you're at it, ever put a flow meter on one of those guys??
    Exactly our experience. We went to a combination load that uses the triple layer at the bottom and finishes with a horse-shoe. Always end up with 50 ft. of hose with the nozzleman and pulls off fast, but manueverable.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    10

    Default Back On Topic

    Folks.....my original post requested experience with using the Triple Lay load in a Speedlay bed. We are in the process of specing a new quint and are considering Speedlay beds but have concerns about the compatability of the Speedlay bed with the Triple Lay load.

    The Triple Lay works for us since we seldom have deep stretches into a building. Additionally, we typically have a large unrestricted areas in front which allow us to deploy the load before advancing. Also, we currently use pistol grip TFT's which requires additional room in the bed due to the size.

    LDR20TRK

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    LDR20TRK...

    Of course you can MAKE it work. Spec the right size hose bed for your 2 inch hose and it will work.

    The answers you got from people here were from experience with using that particular hose load. For the 3 POC and 2 career FD's I have been on 2 of the POC's used it and one still does. For the 2 career FD's I have been affiliated with neither use it because it simply was not a practical load for us.

    As with anything else in the fire service for every guy that likes something there is another guy that doesn't.

    Personally I see no advantage at all to the triple fold load. It is labor intensive and a mess to load and unload if you can't pull it straight. It requires more manpower to advance if you are going around obstacles. It can't be broken for a shorter lay without totally unloading the bed.

    As for the TFT nozzles...I could write volumes about my displeasure with automatic nozzles...but that's for another day.

    FyredUp

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    27

    Default

    The triple load has a time and a place. I like the triple load for shorter lays, from 0- 100Ft or so. With the minute man you end up with a pile of hose at the nozzle for shorter lays. I agree that if you have to lay into a structure any distance, the minuteman is great. Other than that i dont much care for the minuteman. I have worked for two career departments, one used the triple load exclusively and the other uses the minuteman exclusively. In my opinion they both have good points and bad points, overall neither is any better than the other per say.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    105

    Default

    LDR20TRK

    We purchased two Darley engines last year with speed lays. Our first experience with speed lays, and this comes to mind.

    Make sure you spec the piping to feed from the bottom. We didn't do that, so needless to say we had to modify the Triple load to work with the piping on top.

    Hope this helps.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    fireman4949's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Tallahassee, Florida
    Posts
    2,323

    Default

    We have speed lays on a few of our engines that were all ordered around the same time...Everyone absolutely HATES them! They're a real pain to load and it's much more difficult to deploy the lines in tight spaces.

    Lesson learned. All of our apparatus before and since have good ol' top-loading crosslays.




    Kevin
    Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
    IAFF Local 2339
    K of C 4th Degree
    "LEATHER FOREVER"
    Member I.A.C.O.J.
    http://www.tfdfire.com/
    "Fir na tine"

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Sidney, IL
    Posts
    6

    Default

    LDR20TRK

    (Just thinking out loud here, for what its worth)
    How about building a modified "J" roller to assist loading the hose. It looks like a giant laminate roller for countertops with a 7' long handle. Maybe your fire apperatus maker could do this for you. A guy with some fabrication skills could pull it off too.
    Hook up your hose, pass this thing through, loop the fold over the roller and pull it back, repeat. When your done store it along with your pike poles in the rear.
    If you wanted to pull the line through so both lines are working off the same side, I guess you'd be limited to specing the width of the speedlay no narrower than the width of the pistol grip nozzle with some extra room to get it through. If this was not a concern, you could spec a nozzle holding bracket to contain the nozzle and fold outside of the speedlay.
    Also, it may be nice to have the plumbing mounted below as mentioned previously, but close to the sides if possible. This way you won't have to reach way inside to make the connection.
    Another option is to spec "removable" speedlay trays. They are a pain, but they still function. On those we have to leave enough tail and make a 45 fold, then load your triple. Slide tray in, and make the overhead connection. After jacking with this several times, we marked our tray and marked the hose, so it goes back the same everytime. We also went to "poly" trays which are a lot lighter than the aluminum ones we started with.

    Chad

  17. #17
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    WRFDTO has the same issue we did, the piping is at the top of the speedlay area because the trys cover the sides and bottom. Regardless of which lay you use you'd have to leave a couple of feet hanging off the side to connect to the discharge. Pack it wrong and it will get hung up, triple or flat.

    We put 150' - 1.75" in each speedlay, flatpacked. Most of our single & multi-family structures we can either hit it with 150' or we're too far and have to use the apartment lay. Same with commercial. And with the flat we can add if needed in the few spots we have that 150' won't reach. But the flatpack with ears is what we found to be the best option after a lot of trail and error during trainings. The other trucks with crosslays are triple packed, that seems to work the best for them.

    And as the others said, it will take training on the department's part to figure out what works best in your area. If you want 200' of 2" you'll probably need to spec larger speedlays.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    First define a "standard"speedlay bed.At 250.I'm guessing you're goig to be tight.200 usually isn't much of a problem.Secondly there is a thirty second "cure"for getting it packed right first time,every time.When you get it packed right,pull it off and PAINT the spot in the hose where the two bends come(on the first time you "third" the hose).After that it's as simple as line up the dots.At least that's how our neighbors do it. T.C.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    MMA10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    21

    Default

    Well, it depends on how your pump / crosslay area is set up, but one of the ideas I like that may work for you is to set up the upper-most speedlay as more of a crosslay (open-topped).

    I can't find the picture of it, but basically, the bottom two speedlays are the standard size for 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" x 150' attack lines, and the top (3rd) speedlay cabinet has no top and higher sides. The particular unit I'm remembering used that speedlay/crosslay area for their 2-1/2" x 250' line.

    If they got that line to fit there, I'm sure you could get your 2" x 250' line to work there...

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    One word..flat loads!

    Okay, that's two..

    We forget that simple is better. Trying to do "fancy shmancy" hose loads is a waste of time, and the time it takes training people to do the "fancy shmancy" hose loads can be put to better use.

    Just my 3 cents worth...Captains have to pay a little more!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    Chauffeur6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Metro NY
    Posts
    613

    Default

    It takes me a grand total of 15 minutes or less to show a guy how to properly pack our hose lays. I suppose they could be using that time for much more important things that are never a waste of time, like polishing all the fancy chrome on the trucks so they look good for the parades.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffer6
    It takes me a grand total of 15 minutes or less to show a guy how to properly pack our hose lays. I suppose they could be using that time for much more important things that are never a waste of time, like polishing all the fancy chrome on the trucks so they look good for the parades.
    True, but we since my FD does only one parade a year, it's a moot point.

    The flat load for attack lines is basically "firefighter proof"...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    Chauffeur6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Metro NY
    Posts
    613

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    True, but we since my FD does only one parade a year, it's a moot point.

    The flat load for attack lines is basically "firefighter proof"...
    I was just being a little sarcastic. I understand your bigger point, but I just don't think it's too big an issue what with wasting time. If anything, I think it's a good exercise in how to properly care for and stow equipment after use, rather than just tossing something back in the compartment without care.

    As far as the flat load being "firefighter proof", eh I dunno about that. To PACK it, yeah, it's very straightforward, but to PULL it properly is another story. I've seen guys far too often just try to pull the nozzle and run, leaving a pile of spaghetti behind them. Sure, that comes down to proper training also, but for my money, the triple load works well. I have never once, in the many years our dept has used it, seen the hose get tangled up. As a matter of fact, once the hose is clear of the bed (which happens in no time at all), it basically flakes itself out once charged.

    But, to each their own. Maybe my dept is just so used to using it that we've worked all the kinks out of it (no pun intended). We also use 2" as our smallest attack line and have had surrounding depts that use 1.5" or 1.75" comment on how big or heavy it feels. We obviously don't notice because we were brought up on it.

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Penn Valley, Ca
    Posts
    571

    Default

    I agree, the triple fold is a little more difficult to pack but easier to deploy. Deploying a flat load is more difficult to do correctly, since the loops (if provided) have to be pulled in the right order. Additionally the loops have to be in the right places and the right lengths.

    Birken

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1

    Thumbs up Speedlays

    our department recently bid a pumper and it had a triple speedlay with all three speedlays side by side IPO one above the other. The lays could be loaded from the walkway or from the ground. It was different from what we have normally seen, but it would make loading the hose much easier.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register