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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Listen kid,

    Your ignorance of this subject matter is probably larger than you think. First review what the policies that Departments develop, then review the case law that deals with the situation (some of which I posted earlier) and tell us again that a city has the right to determine what you do and don't read privately during your down time.

    When you read the policies regarding publications one may not read...most often they define the material in such a manner that also would include the very publications you said are perfectly fine...however who says you can decide which publications I can read? Could I read a book on Renisance paintings, some of which are nudes?

    If you have a relevant point backed up with facts...then lets hear it...we are all waiting. You are entitled to your opinion...however it doesn't jive with case law or the Constitution of these United States.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-For the record employment for the city doesn't equate to one surrendering their inalienable rights..check it out.
    Listen pops, we're talking about common sense here. Let me rephrase that, I'm talking about common sense here. Common sense says that you don't read or look at porn while you're working. I'm sure the Constitution wasn't written with right to look at porn at work in mind.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler
    That is a seriously low blow and a completley biased statement. A career firefighter is no more a professional firefighter than a dedicated volunteer. YEs there are some bad apples but such a sweeping generazlization is completley uncalled for. I hate to bring it up but such a statement sounds like somthing JonnyBoyCan ( sorry to mention him) would say.


    Sorry to hijack this thread, just thought that this was something that needed to be said.
    Well your opinion really isn't relovent since you don't belong here in the first place. I'm not even going to get into the volunteer vs. professional debate because the issue has already been beat to death in many threads before.

  3. #28
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    ironmint...

    1) There is a mjor difference between reading a Playboy by your bunk or in the dayroom and having them lieing around in the public areas of the station. If your career FD has these magazines laying all over it would be easy fgor me to compare your FD to a frat instead of a professional FD.

    2) Time and time again FD's and employers have lost the battle over trying to prohibit FF's from reading certain material or decorating the inside of their lockers a specific way. The only time these rules have power is if the individual bows to the pressue and the Union fails to back the FF.

    3) As for your snide, immature, completely unfounded, remarks about FFFred acting like a volunteer firefighter...well say them to me...I am both a volly and a career firefighter and both places have professional firefighters. You sir are not a professional if you need to resort to those nothing more than inflamatory comments. You seem to think calling someone a volunteer is an insult. In reality you insult yourself with these kinds of comments. Before you preach to others to be professional try it yourself.

    FyredUp

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironmint
    Well your opinion really isn't relovent since you don't belong here in the first place. I'm not even going to get into the volunteer vs. professional debate because the issue has already been beat to death in many threads before.

    My opinion is my opinion and i can express it were i D@mn well please. YOU brought it up with that ignorant statement. I belong in here as much as you do, i am thinking about going paid later in life. You have no right to tell me were i belong only the webteam has that right.
    Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    ironmint...

    1) There is a mjor difference between reading a Playboy by your bunk or in the dayroom and having them lieing around in the public areas of the station. If your career FD has these magazines laying all over it would be easy fgor me to compare your FD to a frat instead of a professional FD.

    2) Time and time again FD's and employers have lost the battle over trying to prohibit FF's from reading certain material or decorating the inside of their lockers a specific way. The only time these rules have power is if the individual bows to the pressue and the Union fails to back the FF.

    3) As for your snide, immature, completely unfounded, remarks about FFFred acting like a volunteer firefighter...well say them to me...I am both a volly and a career firefighter and both places have professional firefighters. You sir are not a professional if you need to resort to those nothing more than inflamatory comments. You seem to think calling someone a volunteer is an insult. In reality you insult yourself with these kinds of comments. Before you preach to others to be professional try it yourself.

    FyredUp
    Well FyredUp, if you're both a volly and a career fireman like you say, then you're a disgrace to the union brotherhood. There are union bi-laws that prohibit career firefighters from volunteering elsewhere. Disobeying the bi-laws is like spitting in the face of the union. And no, both places don't have professional firefighters. Professional firefighters are those who get paid to do the job. Volunteers do it as a hobby.

  6. #31
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    Angry Hey Ironmint

    i know why your name is iron mint, it is to cover the smell reeking from your pie hole. don't be trashing volleys. the city they work for either doesn't have enough calls to justify having guys 24/7 in a hall. or they can't afford it. if he wants to be a professional firefighter off the clock more power to him. stop believing that volunteers are unprofessional, there are some very good firemen out there that don't get payed to do it. just out of curiosity have you ever been a volunteer? then you would know how hard it is to volunteer. did you ever haveto leave christmas dinner to help someone? how about a kids baseball game? please remove the foot out of your mouth and apologize. nuff said

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironmint
    Listen pops, we're talking about common sense here. Let me rephrase that, I'm talking about common sense here. Common sense says that you don't read or look at porn while you're working. I'm sure the Constitution wasn't written with right to look at porn at work in mind.
    What about the right to read the The Communist Manifesto? What about a book on paintings (nudes)? Or perhaps the National Geographic...although saggy boobs that fall around a bush woman's belly button aren't arrousing to me...they certainly could be to others. How about Cosmopolitan or Redbook Mags, how about a romance novel if you have women on your job? Can you talk dirty to your wife or girl friend on the phone while sitting around the firehouse?

    Who really gives a f*ck on what you are doing during your down time...as long as when the bell rings you respond to the fire I don't see the relevance as to what a person is doing in the privacy of the living quarters. You don't stop being human when you are on duty.

    There is much more to Playboy than naked photos(aka-ART)...but an adolecent like you probably never noticed the articles...did you?

    The Constitution(and specfic to this conversation:The Bill of Rights) was written to preserve certain inalienable rights...among those being foremost the right to free speech and access to it as well.

    Along with supporting case law...simply put the Constitution as interpreted currently does protect your and my right to read what we choose so long as it is legal (ie. not child porn, ect.)

    This isn't about "common sense" (aka-Your personal beliefs or desires) or what you think everyone else should read or think, Hitler...we aren't going to have book burning sessions based on your biased view on what is and isn't appropriate for adults to read during unregulated down time in the firehouse.

    Don't like it...find some country ruled by a Totalitarian Regime and move there. I'm sure you'll find many others there with your same views Hell, who knows, you might just be able to get a job as a member of the thought police!

    FTM-PTB

  8. #33
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    Lightbulb

    I just couldn't help but having to throw a few cents into this argument. Personally, I don't think it matters what type of fireman you are (career or vol) or what type of department you work for. Guarantee you let your citizens walk into the door and see Playboy laying out in plain view and it will be on the 5 o'clock news. If someone wants to bring it in their bag, read it in the john because they just can't wait 24 hours or LESS to read it again then have at it. It is just a careless attitude and maybe a bit disconnect with the rest of the workplace that makes this an issue. Our cities and communities own the fire departments. They make our HR policies and proceedures.

    If a worker that works at say, the local school, should he/she be allowed to also bring this type of material to work? Should a judge? Trust me, just about 99% of the working world has have policies against this type of materials brought into the work place. Whatever your belief in the creation of this policy, it is something that we end up having to live by.

    Ok, so some think they there is no difference in a "art" magazine or book is no difference than "Playboy". So then what is the difference in some hardcore porn magazine vs. "Playboy"? Where does the line get drawn?

    Doesn't it bother you when you see another fireman gets make the front page of the news with his questionable actions?
    1. FD Deputy Chief arrested on charges of child pornograghy
    2. Firefighter gets caught in sex sting on Dateline
    3. Tons of firefighters get caught doing stupid stuff (porn in firehouse)

    I really believe that we should cleaning up our own backyard before we have other people doing it for us! Just my opinion....

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by theacrobat
    I just couldn't help but having to throw a few cents into this argument. Personally, I don't think it matters what type of fireman you are (career or vol) or what type of department you work for. Guarantee you let your citizens walk into the door and see Playboy laying out in plain view and it will be on the 5 o'clock news. If someone wants to bring it in their bag, read it in the john because they just can't wait 24 hours or LESS to read it again then have at it. It is just a careless attitude and maybe a bit disconnect with the rest of the workplace that makes this an issue. Our cities and communities own the fire departments. They make our HR policies and proceedures.
    I still can't believe some of you are really arguing against your own rights.

    First...Who in the hell allows the public into the mens room or tv room? do you also allow school kids to wander around while members are in and out of the showers and in the locker room? Your argument is non-responsive to the topic at hand...this has NOTHING to do with leaving copies of Playboy or Maxim or whatever at the Housewatch desk for every civilian to see.

    In what will become a concept I will have to repeat to you and others... READ the CASE LAW first before commenting. Just because you accept employment with any government agency it doesn't require you to SURRENDER ANY OF YOUR INALIENABLE RIGHTS!.

    If a worker that works at say, the local school, should he/she be allowed to also bring this type of material to work? Should a judge? Trust me, just about 99% of the working world has have policies against this type of materials brought into the work place. Whatever your belief in the creation of this policy, it is something that we end up having to live by.
    "...Live by..." Is that similar to what all of you are failing to do in arguing points that are clearly in violation of the Constitution and are sufficently covered in the written opinion of the court.

    The firehouse is a "defacto" home...if you had taken 10 minutes to review the case law you would have read the courts opinion regarding this difference between an office and a firehouse.

    Ok, so some think they there is no difference in a "art" magazine or book is no difference than "Playboy". So then what is the difference in some hardcore porn magazine vs. "Playboy"? Where does the line get drawn?
    Once again the court in its decision answers this question by explaining its method in determining if Playboy is of "public concern."

    Doesn't it bother you when you see another fireman gets make the front page of the news with his questionable actions?
    1. FD Deputy Chief arrested on charges of child pornograghy
    2. Firefighter gets caught in sex sting on Dateline
    3. Tons of firefighters get caught doing stupid stuff (porn in firehouse)
    1. No this is illegal. If he is guilty he should go to jail for a very long time.
    2. Read response above
    3. Could you cite a case...and why is what you or anyone else feels is "porn" should be on the banned book list? BTW- Content based censorship is illegal...but then again looking at your prior comments you probably wouldn't have recognized that fact either.

    None of the above bothers me as I'm not naive to think there aren't criminals in the FD or any other line of work. That is their personal problem and for you to think that it somehow reflects on the other firemen is your own personal charatcer flaw that you alone must confront.

    I really believe that we should cleaning up our own backyard before we have other people doing it for us! Just my opinion....
    I believe in my oath in which I swore to uphold the Constitution of these United States...in my opinion backed up with facts, you and others are looking to circumvent the Bill of Rights and impose or substitute your biased views and beliefs on everyone else you work with.

    I work with 11 other men every day at work...I don't care what they do during their own time and personally life is too short for me and the other men we work with and we have much more important things to worry about. But I'm sure your departments have all those other "insignifigant" things worked out and can focus on the individuals personal habits...have fun working in the Gestapo FD!

    FTM-PTB

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    FFFRED, I am completely behind you with this arguement!! Its our right to read whatever we please. No one should be able to tell us what we can and can't read! And I don't understand why these guys keep bringing up the point of this type of material being out in public display. Where I work we don't really allow the public to go anywhere in the house besides the apparatus floor! They don't go upstairs into the bunkrooms, TV rooms and certainly not OUR Kitchen. Maybe its just my neighborhood?? (last time I let someone in the house they turned out to be an EDP) I also feel that this material doe'snt belong on the apparatus floor anyways: So where is the problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefiftyfive
    And I don't understand why these guys keep bringing up the point of this type of material being out in public display.
    It has to do with the old lawyers axiom:

    -If you don't have the Law on your side, argue the Facts;
    -If you don't have the Facts on your side, argue the Law;
    -If you have neither...baffle them with Bull Sh*t!



    FTM-PTB

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironmint
    Well FyredUp, if you're both a volly and a career fireman like you say, then you're a disgrace to the union brotherhood. There are union bi-laws that prohibit career firefighters from volunteering elsewhere. Disobeying the bi-laws is like spitting in the face of the union. And no, both places don't have professional firefighters. Professional firefighters are those who get paid to do the job. Volunteers do it as a hobby.
    First of all I am not in a competing agency by anyone's definition. There are NO full time fire departments in the county I live in. My village has a population of 717 with an annual FD budget of around $40K. So excuse me if I don't pay much attention to you ranting...a shame you didn't call me a scab I do so love that.

    As long as I pay my Union dues and am involved in my local it is frankly none of your business to tell me I am a disgrace to the Union.

    A shame that same rule doesn't prevent career firefighters from working for the true enemy of the paid fire service...private EMS. A shame that that rule pays no attention to the fact that we are a part of the AFL-CIO and our Brothers and Sisters crap on the parent Union's member all the time. How? By scabbing side jobs in the trades...But wait, who cares we aren;t hurting firefighters just other people trying to make a living.

    Professional firefighters are only one's that get paid? While I disagree with your non-fact based opinion I guess my volly house is a professional FD after all since we get paid on call.

    I do have a couple of questions for you though.

    1) You used to be a volly didn't you? And now you are a self hater and want to deny your volly past.

    2) Since you seem to be nothing but a pot stirrer, do you prefer a wooden or metal spoon?

    FyredUp

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lammrover
    On a side note, if you cannot go without porn for 24 hours, seek help. Although I am guilty of reading Maxim and Stuff at the firehouse, but those are actually magazines the station subscribes too !

    Lammrover
    I only read Playboy for the articles. Is there pornographic photos in that magazine as well?
    Luke

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcfd45
    don't be trashing volleys. the city they work for either doesn't have enough calls to justify having guys 24/7 in a hall. or they can't afford it.
    Wow. All of them? It appears you've done an amazing amount of research. I guess it's true what they say-- if you want to know something, ask the kid in the kitchen at Denny's. Did your research include those guys from DC that keep beating up and stealing jobs from that MD local?

    did you ever haveto leave christmas dinner to help someone? how about a kids baseball game? please remove the foot out of your mouth and apologize. nuff said
    Uh, yeah, I've left those things several times, to go to my job as a professional firefighter, where I help people all the time. Please remove the head out of your *** and apologize. Nuff from you.

    By the way, ee cummings, there's a button on your keyboard that says "shift". Try it at the beginning of a sentence or two, you might like it. Nuff said.

    Just so this isn't a complete hijack, FFFred is absolutely right-- you don't check your rights at the door when you walk in the firehouse. These days , though, you have to worry about being used as ammo in somebody's harassment lawsuit. I bet there's a lot of guys who are either up for promotion or who don't want to be transferred to the "screw-up" house in their dept who self censor their reading material.

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    I don't care what the case law says! It clearly appears that you cannot go without your article chocked Playboy so keep sneaking it in and enjoy your potty breaks! All your legal mumbo jumbo means nothing. City administrations as well as just about EVERY workplace out there has policies against this type of material. Arguing for your "rights" to look at this as well as other questionable material is rather funny.

    To say "who really cares what you are reading/doing as long as you respond when a fire comes in" is the most ignorant comment I have read on this site. Well, who really cares what your local phone company operator is reading while they are answering your billing questions??? NOBODY but they still have polices against it. In fact, they have policies against having possession of this type of material in the workplace (as do most companies).

    Sorry! I don't want my kids school teachers, judges, doctors, etc running back and forth from doing their JOB in order to get their 15 minute fix on PORN or even softcore Playboy.

    "Your living quarters"? I hate to tell you this but just because you work 24 hour shifts (as I do), it isn't yours! It is your station that those who hired you empowered you to be responsible for....This is a job where YOU work for the citizens of your community. You come across like everyone owes YOU... WHAT IS IN IT FOR "ME"... "WAAAAAAA,,, they want to take away my Playboy or my P***Y Party magazine!" Get over it! Don't you come to work to be a FIREMAN? Want something to read in your "downtime", why not read Firehouse??? Go out and train on something. Go drive around... Do something short of getting your rocks off (oh, sorry, reading articles) between calls....Bet you already know everything already though.

    Constitutional rights don't mean you have to lose your ability to have common sense and some self discipline. If the department policy says NO,,,, then it is no! Once again, get over it.... Keep in in your car and when you get off, go sit under a bridge and enjoy! I know you have been in the business a long time; maybe too long!

    In closing, doesn't the MALTESE CROSS stand for 8 character traits? At least for the 24 hours you work, pretend that you stand for some of them!

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    Oh, our firehouses DO let children into our TV rooms. See, we have tours come through fairly regularly so the chance is great that one would be found....In fact, someone use to bring their stash of Playboy and leave them in the restrooms (even though we have a policy against it)... 10 year old boy came with the tour and needed to go the bathroom (which of course we allowed him to do) and guess what he came out with!

    Our local union had a great time fighting that one.... Every guy in the department looked bad on the actions of one.

    OUR firehouses are public domains! My locker is just about the only "privacy" area I have and even that is regulated by our policies (cannot hang adult material in lockers)...

    Nothing wrong with reading what you want,,,, knock yourself out! But if the department policy / HR policy is against it, do it on your own time!

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    theacrobat...

    You don't care what case law says? Really? How bizarre is that opinion.

    Our firefighters ahve been told you can look at those magazines just leep them out of the public areas, to include the kitchen and bathrooms. Seems simple enough maybe your FD should try it.

    FyredUp

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    Sounds like "theacrobat" uses his acrobatic skills to not end up in the chief's butt when he stops short. Another skell who'll run to the local when the current chief resigns and management changes to someone he hasn't sucked up to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theacrobat
    I don't care what the case law says! It clearly appears that you cannot go without your article chocked Playboy so keep sneaking it in and enjoy your potty breaks! All your legal mumbo jumbo means nothing. City administrations as well as just about EVERY workplace out there has policies against this type of material. Arguing for your "rights" to look at this as well as other questionable material is rather funny.

    To say "who really cares what you are reading/doing as long as you respond when a fire comes in" is the most ignorant comment I have read on this site. Well, who really cares what your local phone company operator is reading while they are answering your billing questions??? NOBODY but they still have polices against it. In fact, they have policies against having possession of this type of material in the workplace (as do most companies).

    Sorry! I don't want my kids school teachers, judges, doctors, etc running back and forth from doing their JOB in order to get their 15 minute fix on PORN or even softcore Playboy.

    "Your living quarters"? I hate to tell you this but just because you work 24 hour shifts (as I do), it isn't yours! It is your station that those who hired you empowered you to be responsible for....This is a job where YOU work for the citizens of your community. You come across like everyone owes YOU... WHAT IS IN IT FOR "ME"... "WAAAAAAA,,, they want to take away my Playboy or my P***Y Party magazine!" Get over it! Don't you come to work to be a FIREMAN? Want something to read in your "downtime", why not read Firehouse??? Go out and train on something. Go drive around... Do something short of getting your rocks off (oh, sorry, reading articles) between calls....Bet you already know everything already though.

    Constitutional rights don't mean you have to lose your ability to have common sense and some self discipline. If the department policy says NO,,,, then it is no! Once again, get over it.... Keep in in your car and when you get off, go sit under a bridge and enjoy! I know you have been in the business a long time; maybe too long!

    In closing, doesn't the MALTESE CROSS stand for 8 character traits? At least for the 24 hours you work, pretend that you stand for some of them!

    All I can say is you must be extreemly young, have a personal beef with what you regard as inapropriate material for adults to read and refuse to address the questions and facts I and others have presented. Are you so sexually repressed that you get physically ill when you see an image of a female in the nude? Do you jerk off in a closet so god can't see you?

    I would really love to work with you for a tour...what a fun day that would be. You wouldn't last a mintue!

    I suggest you take a history class or perhaps some intro-Law class and learn about how this country was founded, on what principles and how our legal system works. It would probably be an eye opener for you.

    It is clear to me you will do none of what I have asked becasue you are much too ignorant of the facts behind this issue and are too immature to discuss this without your attempts at character assasination and application of your own personal beliefs on our Constitutional rights.

    BTW-What if your department unilaterally decided to require you to work 80 hours a week for no OT despite a contract in place with strict rules against such practices...Would you also claim..."if the Dept. says so...then it is so"? I seriously doubt it.

    Either argue with facts or go back to your explorer post meeting and leave us adults to deal with adult issues.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-Never heard any nonsense about the maltese standing for anything other than itself...must be some silly nonsense your volly house came up with.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 06-26-2006 at 11:44 AM.

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    Just have a mind that isn't so self serving as to think that my needs/desires, etc come above that of those that I serve....

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    Extremely young? 35 so I will take that as a compliment.

    Sight of nude women does me just right.... My wife will testify as will our 4 children! I just don't need to be teathered to it 24 hours a day. That is what my off days are for!

    If I worked a 24 hour shift with you, you'd be sleeping on the couch with your blanky because you aren't use to actually getting out and working,,,oh unless the "fire" should come in. And no, lock ups in the john do not count as working!

    Sorry! Not an explorer. Not a "volunteer" either. Full time, professional, IAFF member firefighter who happens to have an opinion not fully rooted in the left wings of your mind. I actually had to work in the real workplace for most of my life to see how things really work. Most things in the fire service are worth fighting to keep, playboy in the station is not one that I feel is worth dying over... PERIOD!

    Oh, and my fellow breatheren before me must agree because they have NEVER fought to have it put into our contact, bylaws or policies. I guess we deal with your "adult" issues a little bit more maturely here in my part of the world.

    Hurry though, I bet this months subscription is probably sitting in your mailbox.... You go read it. I am off, I think I will go get the real thing!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by theacrobat
    Extremely young? 35 so I will take that as a compliment.

    Sight of nude women does me just right.... My wife will testify as will our 4 children! I just don't need to be teathered to it 24 hours a day. That is what my off days are for!

    If I worked a 24 hour shift with you, you'd be sleeping on the couch with your blanky because you aren't use to actually getting out and working,,,oh unless the "fire" should come in. And no, lock ups in the john do not count as working!

    Sorry! Not an explorer. Not a "volunteer" either. Full time, professional, IAFF member firefighter who happens to have an opinion not fully rooted in the left wings of your mind. I actually had to work in the real workplace for most of my life to see how things really work. Most things in the fire service are worth fighting to keep, playboy in the station is not one that I feel is worth dying over... PERIOD!

    Oh, and my fellow breatheren before me must agree because they have NEVER fought to have it put into our contact, bylaws or policies. I guess we deal with your "adult" issues a little bit more maturely here in my part of the world.

    Hurry though, I bet this months subscription is probably sitting in your mailbox.... You go read it. I am off, I think I will go get the real thing!!!!
    Well at 35 you should be ashamed at being so ignorant of the law and incapable of holding an intelligent argument without completely ignoring every relevant fact and law that this subject is based in. Just sneek by with a GED are we? Do everyone a favor and educate yourself on work place rights...you know those things that an IAFF member should appricate.

    A real job, a real workplace?...I seriously doubt if we compared who has worked where and does what while at work who would know more about the real world here. My workplace doesn't get anymore real than it gets. That isn't chest thumping or bravado...that is just a fact and I'm not going to sit here and let you attempt at changing the focus of the discussion to topics that while irrelevant don't support your argument even if they were topical.

    So you're another clown who thinks that the fire service is a joke? This must just be a side job to you... Hmmm must be indicitative of you working in a f*ckshop that does nothing but EMS runs and the occasional garbage can fire...if you really worked in a decent firehouse you wouldn't be making those claims about what a joke the fire department is as compared to the white collar private sector! If your firehouse is easier than a white collar job...well the only joke here is you.

    As for sleeping with my blanky...I doubt between the two of us that I get more rest (I've yet to really sleep in a firehouse) than you! My last night tour we did 8 runs inlcuding a 2nd Alarm. You really don't want to start this argument.

    Besides back to the issue at hand...

    There is a long list of Dead men who fought to preserve everyones rights...including the First Amendment and if you are unwilling to fight and die for it...you are a coward and deserve no rights.

    If I want to read an interview in this months Playboy...why do you think you or anyone else has the right to say I can't read that publication?

    You never did explain the difference between Playboy and let's say Cosmo or National Geographic or even the sexually prevocotave ads in Victorias Secret ads...we are still waiting.

    Now this must be a newsflash for you...but it isn't in our contract either...it is in the Constitution of these United States and is supported by specific and ancilary court decsions. As I said before: look it up...you might just get an education. I'm at a loss to understand why expecting to have all the rights of a citizen of these Untited States as we are is somehow immature or beneath us? Could you expand on this thought?

    Remember...
    The Constitution is relevant....PERIOD.
    The Case Law is relevant....PERIOD.
    Your personal beliefs are irrelevant....PERIOD.

    Still waiting for an argument based on facts...get back to us when you have those.

    FTM-PTB

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by theacrobat
    Just have a mind that isn't so self serving as to think that my needs/desires, etc come above that of those that I serve....
    WTF does all that mean exactly? These aren't "needs/desires" that we are talking about...they are INALIENABLE RIGHTS! There is a Grand Caynon of difference between the two.

    I also don't understand how your needs in this specific case interfere with your sworn duty? Could you explain this also?

    FTM-PTB

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    PS-Never heard any nonsense about the maltese standing for anything other than itself...must be some silly nonsense your volly house came up with.
    FFFRED-- check yourself, brother. The maltese cross has a rich history, originally intended to extoll the virtues of a Christian warrior. The 8 points were, and still are, character virtues.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_Cross_%28symbol%29

    Silly volly nonsense? Not exactly.

    Edited to add: techincally, the fire service maltese is not a TRUE maltese cross. It's an adaptation, but the "chivalric values" are still cited.
    Last edited by MamaLieut; 06-26-2006 at 01:38 PM.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLieut
    FFFRED-- check yourself, brother. The maltese cross has a rich history, originally intended to extoll the virtues of a Christian warrior. The 8 points were, and still are, character virtues.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_Cross_(symbol)

    Silly volly nonsense? Not exactly.
    Agreed though...

    I think you need to do more research as those points might have some meaning to the Knights of St. John of Malta or to the blokes on the other side of the pond but there is no evidence to support why my Department (or Brooklyn FD) most likely was the first to choose it as their badge also brought along with it the 8 points. It most likely stems from a Civil War unit and not because of the 8 virtues or anything like that.

    Furthermore interesting as it maybe it doesn't factor into Constitutional rights which is at the crux of this discussion.

    Interesting side note thought...thanks for the pointer.

    FTM-PTM

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