1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    just out of curiosity, if a female firefighter in the firehouse gets offended by Fred's reading of the playboy/hustler/Juggs, can she file a sexual harrassment complaint? and if so, would she have a valid case?
    1) Yes
    2) Depends on the facts of the case and which jurisdiction it is in

    Harassment/hostile workplace is in the eyes of the complaintant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcfd45
    would it be ok for a teacher to read the playboy while taking a test?
    Obviously your friend is not in the fire service if they are using teachers as an example of what firefighters should be allowed to do.

    Would it be ok for a teacher to take a nap during the test? Would it be ok for a teacher to watch TV during the test? Would it be ok for the teacher to work-out during the test? How about taking a shower, would that be ok? Ask your friend those questions and let them know that it is "ok" for a firefighter to do all of the above while they are at the station. Comparing what a teacher could do to what a firefighter could do is like comparing apples and oranges. About the only other profession that you could "maybe" compare a firefighter to would be the military. As stated earlier, "Name one organization other than the military that lives in their workplace...?" A teacher sure doesn't live at their workplace.
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    You know if you guys would have read the courts opinion. (easilly attainable on the web) Most of your questions could be answered and you would see your arguments were played out in court and were weighed accordingly.

    Since I'm getting tired of typing for people who don't care to at least educate themselves on the relevant subject matter I will type a brief summary and if you want a further explanation of the facts...look them up.

    1. Teacher issue= Teacher doesn't work in a "defacto home"(Courts terms not mine) and have large amounts of unregulated down time waiting for alarms such as firemen. That is what makes a firehouse different from any other work place...it is a "home".

    2. As for porn at work: No one has yet explained the difference between Playboy, the NY POST, the Penny's catalog as Gonzo put it nicely, National Geographic (saggy fun bags and all), Cosmopolitan Magazine, a romance novel, a book on Nude art paintings...the Communist Manafesto, or any other literary or photographic, or artistic work.

    Who says I'm puching the clown when I read Playboy...perhaps I'm reading an article...they are in there folks. Hell I could just as easily read a copy of a Victorias Secret catalog and get the same effect? Is VS porno? It is sent blindly to just about everyone by US mail. (BTW- "content" based censorship is a well established no-no as far as the US Constitution and the courts are concerned)

    Why should I see a therapist about excersing my right to read a publication that is perfectly legal to sell, possess and read by any adult in this country? Perhaps it is those who would have fit in well with Mussolini's regime that should seek out profesional assistance in those fields.

    This isn't about porn at work, this is about freedom of speech and freedom as an adult during your down time to read what you choose as every other American can...what makes any of you think since someone is paying you your inalleniable rights are dispensed with like so much waste paper?

    3. As for common sense, common sense states no civilians in Fireman only areas, just because the public pays for them...doesn't mean they have unfettered access and use of them. Because Joe blow pays for your wieght room (they don't here) does that mean they have an all access gym membership? Most depts with some sense have rules against civilians past the housewatch or off the appratus floor.

    4. Dr. Parasite, As for your question it is much too vauge to properly answer...If I was purposely showing it to them...making comments...or leaving it in areas that I knew others who were not interested in reading it...then yes they'd probably have a good case...

    ...however that isn't what this case or this topic is about. This is about quite reading, possestion and consensual sharing of reading material. In that case they wouldn't have much ground to stand on as

    5. FTMPTB15- Excellent rebuttal...that is a great comparision of how it is really apples and oranges when comparing our job to others. Most often any such endevors are spurious.

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    Originally Posted by DrParasite
    just out of curiosity, if a female firefighter in the firehouse gets offended by Fred's reading of the playboy/hustler/Juggs, can she file a sexual harrassment complaint? and if so, would she have a valid case?
    Originally posted by Mike Ward
    1) Yes
    2) Depends on the facts of the case and which jurisdiction it is in

    Harassment/hostile workplace is in the eyes of the complaintant.
    Let's turn the tables around for a second...

    Out of curiousity, if a male firefighter is offended by a female firefighter reading Playgirl or Cosmo in the firehouse, can he file a sexual harrassment complaint?

    How about a male firefighter being offended by another male firefighter reading Playboy or Maxim or Stuff or FHM due to religious reasons... does he have grounds for a sexual harrasssment complaint?

    How about a firefighter who is offfended by the fact that another firefighter reads a gay themed magazine, such as the Advocate, Out, Curves and Girlfriends in the station... can he or she file a sexual harrassment complaint?

    What if a firefighter is offended by someone reading the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition.. can he or she file a sexual harrassment suit?

    What if an atheist or agnostic firefighter is offended by someone reading the Bible in the station....

    What if a firefighter is offended by the contant proselytizing by a fellow firefighter who happens to be of a different religiuos belief....

    As you can see, this is a very slippery slope...
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 06-28-2006 at 08:02 PM. Reason: spelling errors
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    Thumbs up Good post FFFRED

    FFFRED... very, very good post.

    One of my roommates used to subscribe to Playboy and would have the magazines out on the coffee table. No.. we wouldn't quickly hide the magazines whenever our friends (including females) came over (might I add.. never once did we ever offend anyone, in fact, the girls would more often flip through the magazines than our guy friends.). YES.. we would remove the magazines when one of his younger sibilings came over. As you stated, it's common sense. Now just because we were looking through the magazines didn't mean we were "punching the clown" (FFFRED's term..). The magazine actually contains a lot more writing and articles than it does graphic pictures. I'll be curious to read some responses to FFFRED's post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTMPTB15
    FFFRED... very, very good post.

    One of my roommates used to subscribe to Playboy and would have the magazines out on the coffee table. No.. we wouldn't quickly hide the magazines whenever our friends (including females) came over (might I add.. never once did we ever offend anyone, in fact, the girls would more often flip through the magazines than our guy friends.). YES.. we would remove the magazines when one of his younger sibilings came over. As you stated, it's common sense. Now just because we were looking through the magazines didn't mean we were "punching the clown" (FFFRED's term..). The magazine actually contains a lot more writing and articles than it does graphic pictures. I'll be curious to read some responses to FFFRED's post.
    Also interesting to note...

    Playboy is run by a woman.

    A large percentage if not more than 50% of their subscribers are women...no joke...this was in the court papers.

    FTM-PTB

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    Default Hostile workplace/sexual harassment

    from the original manuscript for
    Fire Officer: Principles and Practice 2006
    Chapter 03: Firefighters and the Fire Officer

    Jack W. Gravely is a lawyer who is a subject matter expert and trainer on workplace diversity. He was the Special Assistant to the County Manager for EEO\AA Action in Arlington County, Virginia, from 1985 to 1988. Gravely anticipated changes adjusted training and developed necessary policies and staffing changes to address the sudden influx of Central Americans, Asians and Ethiopians that moved into the county. He has been a frequent speaker to public safety agencies on issues of racial and cultural diversity. Gravely was named Director of Workplace Diversity for the Federal Communications Commission in 1995.

    Gravely points out that a fire officer benefits from four decades of EEO\AA court decisions. EEOC files about 400 lawsuits every year.

    When he started diversity training classes, the emphasis was on the language of the regulations and the potential impacts. Now, there are court decisions and case law that presents a clear and generally consistent policy on how a supervisor should behave in the workplace. Gravely recommends that a company officer focus on actionable items and hostile workplace.

    Actionable items

    Actionable items are employee behavior that requires an immediate corrective action by the supervisor, because dozens of lawsuits have shown that failing to act will create a liability and a loss for the department. The best example is the use of certain words in the workplace. Using the “N” word, a pejorative and racist term about African-Americans, requires immediate corrective action by the supervisor. Regardless of the conditions, context or situation, that word represents a million-dollar liability to the organization. Even if there are no African-Americans in “earshot.” While there is less case law, using the “C” word, an obscene remark about females, should be considered equally unacceptable.

    The company officer must immediately act. That means speaking with the firefighter, in private, and counseling the firefighter that the use of such words are unacceptable in the fire station and while the individual is representing the department (on-duty or off-duty but in uniform.) The company officer should provide the firefighter with the fire department’s or municipality’s EEO\AA policy statement and, if applicable, the code of conduct. The company officer should maintain a formal or informal record of the counseling session.

    . . .

    The company officer needs to stay informed on the organization’s EEO\AA and diversity policy. Larger organizations will have a diversity or EEO\AA office designed to provide up-to-date information and answer questions. While there is enough case law to provide general guidelines and some specific examples, the subject remains a dynamic aspect of the work environment. For example, a Richmond, Virginia, judge ruled that the term “boy” contributes to a hostile workplace environment in an urban fire department. A new recruit complained that the term was used to harass him. The recruit was Caucasian and the two senior firefighters were African-American.

    . . .

    Hostile Workplace and Sexual Harassment

    Gravely believes that hostile workplace complaints will shape workplace diversity in the 21st century. There are few quid-pro-quo sexual harassment cases – where a supervisor promises a work related benefit in return for a sexual favor. The trend is complaints about a hostile workplace.

    In 1993, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission amended its 1980 sexual harassment guidelines. The amended regulations broadened the types of harassment considered illegal and included a requirement that employers have a duty to maintain a harassment-free work environment. The standard for evaluating sexual harassment is what a “reasonable person” in that same or similar circumstances would find intimidating, hostile or abusive.

    The 1993 guidelines clearly state that employers are liable for the acts of those who work for them if the knew or should have known about the conduct and took no immediate, appropriate corrective action. That is why a company officer must immediately respond to any utterances of the “C” word in the work environment.

    The 1993 EEOC guidelines state that verbal and physical conduct of a sexual nature is harassment when the following conditions are present:

    • Submission to such contact is made either explicitly or implicitly a term of condition of an individual’s employment.

    • Submission to or rejection of such contact by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting the individual.

    • Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual’s work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment.

    Sexual harassment is unwanted, uninvited and unwelcome attention and intimacy in a nonreciprocal relationship. Sexual harassment is an illegal version of sexual discrimination. A concept with sexual harassment complaints is the abuse of power. Power abuse also applies to the generalized hostile workplace complaint.

    Handling an harassment or hostile workplace complaint

    Firefighters have three paths they can take to make a harassment complaint. They can start with the federal government, they can start with the local government or they can start with the fire department. It is their choice.

    ____________________________ end of segment _____________

    In two decades I must have sat through a dozen presentations by Mr. Gravely in my role as an employee of a county fire department, a state fire instructor or a community college faculty member.

    This section of the chapter came from a conversation I have with Gravely after a class in 1999.

    ANYONE can file a complaint about hostile workplace or sexual harassment. The process of responding and investigating the complaint will determine if the complaint is founded or unfounded.
    Last edited by MikeWard; 06-29-2006 at 04:29 PM.

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    i just thought of an interesting spin on things. one member said that a kid had to use the bathroom and he came out with an adult magazine. my question is could this be considered distributing to minors? what are your opinions on this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcfd45
    i just thought of an interesting spin on things. one member said that a kid had to use the bathroom and he came out with an adult magazine. my question is could this be considered distributing to minors? what are your opinions on this?
    No, I don't think that this could be distributing to minors because you are not 'distributing' anything. It would be the same as if you left a pack of cigarettes laying around and a child decided to take one without your knowledge. It's not like you're giving the magazine to the child or even letting the child look at it. Really, the best way to prevent any of that from happening, is to restrict which part of the station the public can go. It really is just that simple...

    If a child found your magazine at home in the bathroom, would it be distributing to a minor?

    Just a side note, I was talking yesterday to a friend of mine (a female) and asked her what she thought of the whole "porn in the fire station" idea. Honestly, the first comment to come out of her mouth was, "Why not? Isn't that like your house?" She is not a firefighter, nor is she related to a firefighter. I wanted to guage the opinion of a 'normal citizen'. Suprised by her comment, I went on to explain what some members from the message boards had expressed as 'concerns for having porn in the station.' Again her comment was, "So many people look at porn while they're at work, why can't firefighters? In fact, they have computers to use to look at porn." I tried to explain to her that technically the fire department is a 'public place' and that if someone comes into the station and is offended than it can give the department a bad image, etc. Still, she said that it shouldn't matter what firefighters look at during their downtime as long as it doesn't disrupt their work. In fact she said, "I wouldn't be offended if I saw a playboy in the fire department.." (Keep in mind, this is a college aged female. I had to explain to her that she might not be offended, but it is the soccer-moms with little kids that might be offended. I also explained that porn is not just lying around the station, it is confined to the 'living quarters' of the station which is off limits to the public.) Just thought that was an interesting point. She really acted like it was no big deal. (She also didn't understand why people complain about us taking the fire truck to the store/out to eat, why people complain about us 'driving too fast', and why people complain about our sirens be 'too loud.')
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    FFFRED is correct in his position. What's next? Everyone needs to use common sence when bringing personal items to the firehouse. We need to remain cognezent that someone might be offended, justified or not. It's about respecting others as we would want to be respected and this statement works on both sides of the issue. Don't create our own problems.
    Last edited by spfdtruckman; 07-14-2006 at 01:01 PM.

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    This is pretty simple.. We work to serve the public.. We are to be above reproach and its not hard to figure out that the days of the old boys club are gone.. as hard as it is to swallow, we all know better... The firehouse is public domain, and more importantly we are held in high regard for a reason.. SOmething like pornography can give us a black eye and doesnt go towards public support during contract times... If you cant give up the nudie mags for 24 hours you may have a problem..

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Listen kid,

    Your ignorance of this subject matter is probably larger than you think. First review what the policies that Departments develop, then review the case law that deals with the situation (some of which I posted earlier) and tell us again that a city has the right to determine what you do and don't read privately during your down time.

    When you read the policies regarding publications one may not read...most often they define the material in such a manner that also would include the very publications you said are perfectly fine...however who says you can decide which publications I can read? Could I read a book on Renisance paintings, some of which are nudes?

    If you have a relevant point backed up with facts...then lets hear it...we are all waiting. You are entitled to your opinion...however it doesn't jive with case law or the Constitution of these United States.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-For the record employment for the city doesn't equate to one surrendering their inalienable rights..check it out.
    So you shouldnt have a problem with a teacher reading Playboy on their lunch break or while the students read chapters from their history books - you dont expect them to give up their inalienable rights either I presume?

    I am amazed that this thread has enough to go 3 pages or more. Regardless of who has gone to court and what rulings have been made - your PlayBoy should stay at home.

    I have worked filling in various shifts at various Departments surrounding Tucson and they kept Maxim and FHM to the restrooms never out in the day rooms or sleeping quarters. You wont find Playboy at all.

    Professionalism.

    And so I am not confused with the "porn is bad" bible thumpers - I am a Playboy subscriber.
    Last edited by SSTONER; 07-08-2006 at 04:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    So you shouldnt have a problem with a teacher reading Playboy on their lunch break or while the students read chapters from their history books - you dont expect them to give up their inalienable rights either I presume?
    Actually no I don't care...but as far as the court has stated...firemen because of the nature of their workplace doubling as a home away from home "defacto home" that we are afforded rights that wouldn't proabably be permissible in other work places. So if the teacher on their down time in the teachers lounge is reading their personal copy to themseleves...I see no problem in that. The courts however might.

    Read the courts opinion and you will see your argument isn't based on fact.

    I am amazed that this thread has enough to go 3 pages or more. Regardless of who has gone to court and what rulings have been made - your PlayBoy should stay at home.
    You can't be dismissive of a court of law in this country or their rulings...what kind of arogance permits one to think they are above the constitution or law of the land?

    Did you or did you not take an oath to support the Constitution of these United States of America? I know in my dept violations of oath of office usually cost one a few days pay and dept charges.

    I have worked filling in various shifts at various Departments surrounding Tucson and they kept Maxim and FHM to the restrooms never out in the day rooms or sleeping quarters. You wont find Playboy at all.

    Professionalism.
    So what is not-proffesional about quitely reading any legal material that any adult can posses, purchase and read? There are millions of books that have been deemed inapropriate or illegal to read. (usualy by totalitarian regimes)

    What if I find Muslims and their extreemist views offensive and borderline treasonous to these United States...should a Muslim member of the dept be prevented from praying towards mecca during the tour? Can he read the Qur'an?

    What if a young member gets his girlfriend pregnant and is reading pamphlets on abortion that he obtained from the local planned parenthood office...as a Catholic I might be against that in some circumstances...but it is Constitutionally permissible, so should my view that, the material is offensive prevent him from reading it during unregulated hours while I'm reading the NY Times?

    Can you read the Mein Kampf, even though a members father was killed by Nazi's in WWII and finds anything associated with Nazis as offensive?

    Everyone need to stop worring so much about how others conduct their lives and worry about their own. No one I know cares what anyone else does during their own time or attempts to mask their view of morality as "proffesionalism". Proffesionalism is 1. Getting paid for the job and 2. how one performs on the firefloor...not living my life according to your whims and desires.

    Quote Originally Posted by ff1680
    This is pretty simple.. We work to serve the public.. We are to be above reproach and its not hard to figure out that the days of the old boys club are gone.. as hard as it is to swallow, we all know better... The firehouse is public domain, and more importantly we are held in high regard for a reason.. SOmething like pornography can give us a black eye and doesnt go towards public support during contract times... If you cant give up the nudie mags for 24 hours you may have a problem..
    You might work to serve the public, however their is a long list of case law that establishes the fact that one doesn't surender inalienable rights upon taking employment with anyone public or private.

    Your contention is that the Firehouse is public domain? Do you mean like a public park, because that is what "public domain" essentially means...anything the public has a property or intrest right in. Thats odd...Can a civilian use the showers after a run around the neighborhood? Can they have a family picnic and use the grill and fridges? Our Dept has rules...no civilian past housewatch...been that way for probably 100 years.

    FTM-PTB

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    I don't think Playboy is even pornography. I perfer something a bit more specialized such as Plumpers magazine. I love those Big Beautiful Women.
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    FFFRED, I wonder how many people would actually express outrage at someone reading the Qur'an in the firehouse. I think someone needs to start the thread titled: "Qur'an in the firehouse?" and see how many people say it would be Unconstitutional to ban the Qur'an. Funny I've got a feeling that those who are against Playboy wouldn't be against the Qur'an in the firehouse.
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    Malahat :

    I gotta disagree with your statement about firehouses being goverment buildings. Unless you are on a military base or in a federally ran airport fire station, firehouses are ran by the municipality. Therefore the goverments policy on pornography in the ofiice doesn't apply. I recieve policy from city managers, not the provincial or federal goverment.

    As far as playboy goes, what you do in your down time is your own business.
    I couldn't careless if there is playboy in the firehouse. (in fact there is some in dorm room right now).

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    Here ya go. 2 FFs fired for looking at swimsuits on the internet. Make sure to watch the video report. Not any more revealing than Victoria Secret. Here is the link:

    http://www.nbc4i.com/news/9497615/detail.html

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    Default Fyi

    Here ya go. 2 FFs fired for looking at swimsuits on the internet. Make sure to watch the video report. Not any more revealing than Victoria Secret. Here is the link:
    I didn't watch the video report, but the article mentioned that one firefighter was fired and the other was suspended for six days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spfdtruckman
    Here ya go. 2 FFs fired for looking at swimsuits on the internet. Make sure to watch the video report. Not any more revealing than Victoria Secret. Here is the link:

    http://www.nbc4i.com/news/9497615/detail.html
    Now a quote from the news article:
    an audit said the men accessed pornographic material on township computers
    The fact that they were caught on a township computer is grounds for firing. If that had been their own computer and their own internet then (first) I doubt they would have been fired or suspended and (second) I highly doubt anyone would have even known about it. That's not really what we're talking about here, 'porn on computers' is another topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Actually no I don't care...but as far as the court has stated...firemen because of the nature of their workplace doubling as a home away from home "defacto home" that we are afforded rights that wouldn't proabably be permissible in other work places. So if the teacher on their down time in the teachers lounge is reading their personal copy to themseleves...I see no problem in that. The courts however might.

    Read the courts opinion and you will see your argument isn't based on fact



    You can't be dismissive of a court of law in this country or their rulings...what kind of arogance permits one to think they are above the constitution or law of the land?.
    Well, this falls under a lot of things but I am not so sure anyone has the "right" to read Playboy at work if your Job prohibits it from being in the Firehouse.

    As for "Law of the Land" what federal rulings have been made or has it been State Level courts only? If its at the State Level I could care less what rulings have been made in other States as they do not govern my State.


    Did you or did you not take an oath to support the Constitution of these United States of America? I know in my dept violations of oath of office usually cost one a few days pay and dept charges.
    If you honestly want to go so far as to evoke any rights you have under the First Admen or Constitutional rights just so you can Read Playboy - more power to you if you feel that strongly about it.

    Seems you could do a lot more good with that energy on other subjects.



    So what is not-proffesional about quitely reading any legal material that any adult can posses, purchase and read? There are millions of books that have been deemed inapropriate or illegal to read. (usualy by totalitarian regimes)

    What if I find Muslims and their extreemist views offensive and borderline treasonous to these United States...should a Muslim member of the dept be prevented from praying towards mecca during the tour? Can he read the Qur'an?
    I would say as long as that brother or Sister deosnt shove it down my throat or preach in the Firehouse go for it. I should be able to bring my bible to the Fire House also.

    What if a young member gets his girlfriend pregnant and is reading pamphlets on abortion that he obtained from the local planned parenthood office...as a Catholic I might be against that in some circumstances...but it is Constitutionally permissible, so should my view that, the material is offensive prevent him from reading it during unregulated hours while I'm reading the NY Times?
    Really...are you kidding me? While yo are on the Job you are regulated until you go home. You may have down time where you are free to do other things outside of station duties - but your still on the clock.

    Can you read the Mein Kampf, even though a members father was killed by Nazi's in WWII and finds anything associated with Nazis as offensive?
    No, reading about history is not offensive. I think most people can come to grips about that.

    Everyone need to stop worring so much about how others conduct their lives and worry about their own. No one I know cares what anyone else does during their own time or attempts to mask their view of morality as "proffesionalism". Proffesionalism is 1. Getting paid for the job and 2. how one performs on the firefloor...not living my life according to your whims and desires.
    If your deaprtment allows it - then your ok.

    Its not allowed here - thats the bottom line....suck it up and quit crying - you will be home in 24 and can do whatever you want.

    Preffesionalism is more than getting paid.

    It certainly extends beyond the "Firefloor".


    You might work to serve the public, however their is a long list of case law that establishes the fact that one doesn't surender inalienable rights upon taking employment with anyone public or private.
    So your ok with LEO, FF, or any other public safety sector running amuck reading Playboy, viewing Porn, surfing Hate sites on my time? After all I am paying for you to be where you are. Please....

    Your contention is that the Firehouse is public domain? Do you mean like a public park, because that is what "public domain" essentially means...anything the public has a property or intrest right in. Thats odd...Can a civilian use the showers after a run around the neighborhood? Can they have a family picnic and use the grill and fridges? Our Dept has rules...no civilian past housewatch...been that way for probably 100 years.
    Well we wouldnt allow the examples you mention most likely either - I mean if a civilian needed to use the fridge because the power is out and we have power and they need to put their Insulin in our Fridge - maybe? Never had that come up.

    As for our grills - depends I guess. They did buy them after all. Would Joe Public think to even ask - no. Would a school or church - maybe.

    Is the Firehouse public Domain - well they are free to come for medical help at any hours of the day or night - free to tour when they want provided its reasonable.

    We are like any other public safety sector - there are policies and procedures for everything(well most everything). Some of those are for the public to address things such as tours.





    FTM-PTB[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by SSTONER; 07-13-2006 at 04:17 AM.
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    Shawn Stoner
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    Quote Originally Posted by cellblock
    I don't think Playboy is even pornography. I perfer something a bit more specialized such as Plumpers magazine. I love those Big Beautiful Women.
    Lmao....eveyone has to have a niche!
    Warm Regards,
    Shawn Stoner
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTONER
    Well, this falls under a lot of things but I am not so sure anyone has the "right" to read Playboy at work if your Job prohibits it from being in the Firehouse.

    As for "Law of the Land" what federal rulings have been made or has it been State Level courts only? If its at the State Level I could care less what rulings have been made in other States as they do not govern my State.
    It was in Federal Court, as I've said time and time again...look it up.
    Johnson v. Los Angeles County Fire Department,
    DC C Calif., CV 93-7589, October 28, 1994.

    "Your Job" can't legally participate in content based censorship, it is illegal in this country, look it up.

    If you honestly want to go so far as to evoke any rights you have under the First Admen or Constitutional rights just so you can Read Playboy - more power to you if you feel that strongly about it.

    Seems you could do a lot more good with that energy on other subjects.
    This has more to do with everyones basic rights than it does just Playboy. It just so happens Playboy was at the crux of this particular case. I feel strongly about all of our inallienable rights gauranteed in the Constitution and I'm not so arrogant to think that I'm above the law or that I don't have to obey the courts of this country and their rulings. Many 1000s of men have fought and died for those rights and here you are ****ing them away...what a proud American you must be!

    I would say as long as that brother or Sister deosnt shove it down my throat or preach in the Firehouse go for it. I should be able to bring my bible to the Fire House also.
    The guy in LA wasn't shoving Playboy down anyones throat either...he felt he had the right to quietly posses, read and consentually share the magazine during his down time...and the court agreed.

    The point is...what if I or anyone found the guys possession and reading and practicing of his religion "offensive"? Freedom of religion is also a Constitutional right, correct? So why is it you feel that your employer can ingfringe upon everones freedom of speech but Freedom of religion well that is OK in your eyes?

    Who died and made you God and King to decide which Inalienable rights we can and can't have during our down time?

    Really...are you kidding me? While yo are on the Job you are regulated until you go home. You may have down time where you are free to do other things outside of station duties - but your still on the clock.
    The court examined this and ruled the Freedom of Speech trumps any interests of the State or Municipality in regulation of what a fireman reads during his largely unregulated down time (basicly since the only requirements are that you respond to alarms and you can do pretty much anything else you want to, they felt the County of LA was being arbitrary in regulating this mans speech or access to it.)

    No, reading about history is not offensive. I think most people can come to grips about that.
    You missed the point, what if someone found the reading and possesion of said material as blatantly offensive as I know many NY Jews find any Nazi Propaganda as offensive (which Mein Kampf is) Can they ban said book from your reading list? The 1st Amendment says no.

    If your deaprtment allows it - then your ok.

    Its not allowed here - thats the bottom line....suck it up and quit crying - you will be home in 24 and can do whatever you want.

    Preffesionalism is more than getting paid.

    It certainly extends beyond the "Firefloor".
    The court ruled that the department doesn't have the right to allow or disallow certain material based on its content...so you are the one who needs to get a grip and forget about your book burning fantasies for 24 while you sit there fumming about me reading what I choose during my down time.

    So your ok with LEO, FF, or any other public safety sector running amuck reading Playboy, viewing Porn, surfing Hate sites on my time? After all I am paying for you to be where you are. Please....
    Your sense of entitlement is unreal. "Your time"...as if you own every municial worker as your own personal slave! Newsflash buddy just because you are paying for my salary doesn't mean I'm at your every beck and call. As long as the local Engine Company shows up when I have a fire...I could give two-sh*ts as to what they are doing before or after the run...same goes with the cops or teachers or whomever. I have many more problems to worry about in my life than what someone else is doing during their down time at the firehouse.

    Well we wouldnt allow the examples you mention most likely either - I mean if a civilian needed to use the fridge because the power is out and we have power and they need to put their Insulin in our Fridge - maybe? Never had that come up.
    How are they going to have access to it? What happens if you get a run? Do you leave a guy behind? Isn't that the job of the local hospitals to handle that? Basicly No...just because they pay for it doesn't mean they are allowed use of it. Our Dept regulations state no Civilians are allowed past Housewatch...so therefore they never make it into the kitchen anyhow.

    As for our grills - depends I guess. They did buy them after all. Would Joe Public think to even ask - no. Would a school or church - maybe.
    Our stove, was bought by them...our grill however was paid for by the men. Either way they aren't allowed in the Kitchen and they aren't allowed to use the stove for their personal use. They paid for fire protection...not all the ancillary support systems that allow them to recieve that fire protection.

    Is the Firehouse public Domain - well they are free to come for medical help at any hours of the day or night - free to tour when they want provided its reasonable.
    Right, and they don't get to sleep off and hangover or a headache in the bunkroom and they get medical help right there on the apparatus floor. The neighborhood kids get to see the rigs and sit in them and we give them the old firesafety talk...this doesn't equate into public free range domain where they wander around firemen only areas past the Housewatch and use the facilities as they please.

    We are like any other public safety sector - there are policies and procedures for everything(well most everything). Some of those are for the public to address things such as tours.
    And as long as those procedures don't conflict with the Constitutional rights of me or my fellow firemen I have no problem with them either.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 07-13-2006 at 09:42 AM.

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    FFred; I agree with most of what you have said here....but being a former union rep there are a couple of points I think are being missed. The city does have the right to regulate what does or doesn't come into the firehouse ( there is a perb case NYS ..if I find it I'll post it) that being said..your employer has the right to regulate certain activities while your on there dime. Has dumb has it may seem , we had a guy who use to work on lawn mowers on the side and would repair them on his "down" time...long story short He was prohibted from repairing them while on the clock. The other side of the coin our city subscribes to FM and Stuff....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltmdepas3280
    FFred; I agree with most of what you have said here....but being a former union rep there are a couple of points I think are being missed. The city does have the right to regulate what does or doesn't come into the firehouse ( there is a perb case NYS ..if I find it I'll post it) that being said..your employer has the right to regulate certain activities while your on there dime. Has dumb has it may seem , we had a guy who use to work on lawn mowers on the side and would repair them on his "down" time...long story short He was prohibted from repairing them while on the clock. The other side of the coin our city subscribes to FM and Stuff....
    You are correct Ltmdepas3280,

    They can place rules and regulations on you regarding many things...however they can't do so if it is unconstitutional...as in this case.

    You don't have a "right" per se to work on Lawn Mowers however you do have a right to access to free speech which is what this case was about.

    Although I don't know how a city A: found out about him working on mowers in his down time, B: Who actually enforced this rule and who actually cared (in the firehouse anyhow). As long as he does his watches, helps with committee work, helps with the meal and does the right thing on runs...I could care less what a brother does during the tour.

    I suppose he might have actually opened up a complete shop in the back and made it much too obvious..I don't know the specifics..but in any case...you don't have a right to do so.

    FTM-PTB

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    I haven't read the entire thread...just some of the more recent posts. But, from a discussion and some research on a similar issue, I believe the basic guidelines are this (excuse me if I paraphrase...this goes back a couple of years from when I looked into it):

    If your job allows personal reading material (in this case, FHM, Maxim, etc), it cannot restrict ANY personal reading material (including Playboy or the Bible).

    However, your job may restrict all NON-JOB related materials. In this case, you would only be able to read Fire Engineering, Firehouse Magazine, etc. no matter if you're in the bunk room or not, as long as you are "on the clock" and in "their house," as it were.

    Don't know if this helps clarify things...but I hope so.

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