1. #1
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    Default How do YOU handle the 2 inch hoseline aka THE BEAST!

    I work at a vollie company, soon to be in the paid fire buisness, here's my discussion, I can handle the 1 3/4 hose like a garden snake, but the 2" (some company's say 2 1/2) is like a boa constrictor! Man, we were at MUD and me and one other guy were moving (more like inching) the thing, but I was SPENT after. Now I started this stuff when I was a 140 lb skinny 18 y/o kid. I'm 23 now, over 200 lbs, run around a 6 minute mile, I bench over 300 lbs, squat not as good, 265, but here's the thing, what do we gotta do to control this animal? I wanna get to the point where I can handle the nozzle myself without a back-up, so that when I got a back up I wont be spent like i was this weekend. Any advice (besides sitting on it), tips, or workout programs - remember I'm going into a paid department so steriods is not an option!

    Be safe brothers!

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    What kind of nozzle pressures are your D/O's giving you? In my organization, we rely heavily on the 2" line (smoothbore nozzle, @50psi tip pressure) for a primary "intermediate" attack line. I am not the most physically fit guy in the world, but I have no problems handling this line myself, usually I either lay on it, or wedge myself in a doorway. Either way I can't honestly remember it being that bad to handle.

    Hence my query- what are your D/O's giving you? Almost sounds like it could be too much???????
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Default ok....

    not too good with the engineer stuff, but i'll tell you what i remember...

    We use 1 1/8 nozzle, operating pressure at the tip on stand pipe ops with three lengths is 70 PSI, not sure if its the same for hand strethces from the rig, max pressure were told to use is 250 PSI.

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    willy D....

    First of all, which is it 2 inch or 1 1/2 inch hose?

    Secondly70 psi at the tip is over pressurizing the tip by 20 psi. That alone may be why it is kicking your butt.

    FyredUp

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    Your not supposed to be able to handle a 2 1/2 inch line by yourself. If you are then your not getting enough pressure most likely. And I'm sure you could operate the line by yourself because I know I can but you will not be able to advance it very far at a fire!

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    I'm not sure what the problem is here, my company uses 2" attack lines as our primary attack line with both fog abd smooth bore nozzles. We operate the smooth bore 15/16" line at 50 psi at the tip and the standard TFT automatic nozzle @ 100 psi at the tip. We also use 1 3/4" trash lines. Is there a differance in the wieght? absolutely! 1 3/4" is like handling a garden hose to many of our ff's, but we always train with 2" so moving it with one ff is not out of the usual and we are used to it. If the back/irons man knos what he is doing and feeding the line to you the job is extremely easy. If you are both trying to pull the hose at the tip its not gonna work all that well. We train 1 ff at the door/bottom of the steps/first corner and another at the tip and it works well. I hope you can figure out how to utilize it the best way for your company, it is an awesome handline.

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    but the 2" (some company's say 2 1/2)

    Which is it? Theres a big difference in 1/2 an inch. We run 2" with sb's and have absolutely no problems advancing or pumping them.

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    Default okay we're totally missing the point here...

    Forget about psi, etc etc, who do you know that moves the biggest hardest hose like it's a feather weight, what does he do to accomplish this? I'm looking for answer more like do 100 lunges a day, or crawl around you living room with a scott pack, etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillyD
    Forget about psi, etc etc, who do you know that moves the biggest hardest hose like it's a feather weight, what does he do to accomplish this? I'm looking for answer more like do 100 lunges a day, or crawl around you living room with a scott pack, etc
    Firefighting is about team work. There is no way that one man should be trying to advance a 2 1/2 or 1 3/4 line! Not safe or practical

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    Um, one of the most important things in firefighting is a pad of paper, a pencil, and a calculator.

    If your department isn't operating the lines in the manner they where intended to be operated, that could be the problem.

    And it's better to solve the problem by understanding how the equipment was intended to be used, and then properly using the equipment.

    Brains over brawn?

    1-1/8" nozzle being pumped at 70psi will have a reaction force (what it's pushing back at you) of 139#

    An 1-1/8" nozzle being pumped at the standard handline pressure of 50psi will have a reaction force of 99#. That's a tad noticeable, especially if you alone / short handed at the nozzle.

    (As an aside, standard master stream pressure for a smoothbore is 80psi).

    Penndell, whose saying they have no problem, is seeing 69# of reaction from their 15/16ths @ 50psi combination. That's half of what you're experiencing if your numbers where right.

    The 2" v. 2-1/2" is also critical.

    2-1/2" will add 40# of weight per 50' length over the 2". Granted most of the hose just sits on the ground, but you'll notice it in the last 20, 30' or whatever of "working" line.

    Conversely, 2" has it's own disadvantages.

    Let's assume you're running 200' attack lines, and we'll take your 1-1/8" @ 70psi; no elevation gain/loss.

    Using standard rubber lined hose friction loss (albeit this will probably be higher than you actually see with modern, good quality hose)...

    1-1/8" @ 70psi flow 315gpm.

    200' double jacket, rubber lined 2" hose will need a pump discharge pressure of 190psi.

    200' double jacket, rubber lined 2.5" hose will need a pump discharge pressure of only 100psi.

    The PDP isn't that noticeable when you're flowing. But as soon as you shut down that 2" line, it's going up to 190psi -- and that's a pretty stiff line to bend. At least we're sure you won't get a kink in it

    (Another aside, the 2.5" could see high pressures too -- for instance, a good pump operator would have that discharge gated down to provide 100psi PDP on that line when it's flowing....but have an overall pump pressure of 150psi, 190psi, whatever needed to support other, different handlines. In that case, with the bail closed, the 2.5" will go up to the main pump pressure.)

    The actual weight of the hose is 68# of water per 50' of 2", and 106# of water per 50' of 2.5"...big difference not knowing what your "big" line is. Add in a little bit more for the weight of the hose itself. And then potentially add in a lot more for the friction of the outside jacket and brass on the hose. A top quality hose line has a slippery jacket you keep clean so it slides relatively easily, and brass that has rounded edges so they don't snag. About the worse I can think of is lightly used Nitrile rubber hose --which is really "grabby" like, well, the rubber it is -- with squared off brass

    If you're actually running a 1-1/8" tip flowing 315gpm, with PDPs up in the 190psi range...it's pretty understandable why you think it's a monster of a line. It's easy to work with it outside in the open...for interior stuff better have a good crew working with you.

    So you have to ask...
    Are we trying to do too much with this line / nozzle combination?
    Are we running the nozzle at too high a pressure?
    Did we do the math for a different type of hose then we actually have? (Most modern hose will run at pressures lower than I used above...but many departments have never adjusted their training / practices / protocols to reflect manufacturer's figures or actual experience)
    Are we fighting against a low-bid hose and next time we could buy something better?

    ===================
    As to hose handling itself, the only thing I can think of to suggest with a 2 man crew at the tip is to use "vertical loops" when advancing -- shut the nozzle, pull enough hose to make about a 8' or so circumference loop, then advance the nozzle. Usually that gives you enough "working" hose to make a push into a room. Really sucks to darken the fire down from the room's door, but not be able to push in to complete the knock down as you struggle to pull more hose up and keep flowing.

    If you only have 1 guy at the nozzle in an interior operation, and a fire big enough for flows like this...might want to rethink you're doing 'cause you got a lot more fire than you have the manpower to handle.
    Last edited by Dalmatian190; 06-05-2006 at 10:34 PM.

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    OK if you want to know what to do to be able to move the line with more ease, here it is......

    Drill and Train with the line, pull it through a muddy field and see how far you get, then pulled a charged line up a stairwell and down the hall.

    The only way to improve your skills is to use them.

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    Thumbs down You have how many minutes in the Fire Service?????

    Quote Originally Posted by WillyD
    Forget about psi, etc etc, who do you know that moves the biggest hardest hose like it's a feather weight, what does he do to accomplish this? I'm looking for answer more like do 100 lunges a day, or crawl around you living room with a scott pack, etc

    There has been plenty of good advice give so far, you need to listen to it. Thie "trick" is....strap on a set of ballz and man handle the F'in line like a raped ape. Is it a beast? Yes it sure is. Thats why you have a back up man. He takes up ALL the weight of the line making life easy for the nozzleman. Working with the members of your Dept, you will develop techiques with each other. Train, Train, Train.

    I am not 200lbs and less then 6 foot tall......I have no problem with the 2.5" line. I know the brother behind me will do his best so that we make forward progress, and vise versa.


    PS...cut back atleast 20psi on the tip.....and that should be half your problem solved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    man handle the F'in line like a raped ape.
    VinnieB, I am officially asking your permission to use this quote. Made me spit my coffee on the keyboard.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    [QUOTE=VinnieB]I am not 200lbs and less then 6 foot tall......I have no problem with the 2.5" line. I know the brother behind me will do his best so that we make forward progress, and vise versa.QUOTE]

    how much less, vinnie? I heard a rumor...
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    I am not 200lbs and less then 6 foot tall......I have no problem with the 2.5" line.
    Sorry Bro, I'm 250, over 6 feet tall, and I would have a problem if I only had a 2.5 inch "line".

    Guess you really are short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillyD
    Forget about psi, etc etc, who do you know that moves the biggest hardest hose like it's a feather weight, what does he do to accomplish this? I'm looking for answer more like do 100 lunges a day, or crawl around you living room with a scott pack, etc
    Another Rocket Scientist heard from..........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Bones....permission granted....

    nyckftbl......lies I tell ya' all lies......and get back in the sink ballbag.....

    res343cue.....hey, what can I say...other than "damnd Irish curse"

    firefiftyfive....surprised you haven't said anything....yet
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    Bones....permission granted....



    firefiftyfive....surprised you haven't said anything....yet
    Sorry Vinnie I was away from my computer for 24 hrs. I would of been all over that! As I was reading the post I was saying "please let me be the first one" but others beat me to the punch!

    And oh yeah what is up with 70psi at the tip bro?

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    Remember that you are fighting some very powerful natural physical laws when you are advancing large handlines. It comes down to leverage.
    Ever wish your reach was a couple feet longer so you could get a better handle on the beast ? Try using a ladder strap ( some call it a hose strap ) attached to the hose on your trailing side. I've used one dozens of times and it can be like having a third man on the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver76
    Remember that you are fighting some very powerful natural physical laws when you are advancing large handlines. It comes down to leverage.
    Ever wish your reach was a couple feet longer so you could get a better handle on the beast ? Try using a ladder strap ( some call it a hose strap ) attached to the hose on your trailing side. I've used one dozens of times and it can be like having a third man on the line.
    One trick is tubular webbing that is used in rope operations made into a loop. A 10-12ft piece water knotted into the loop, wrap it around the hose then back through itself. (Prusik style wrap but just once) (Note I am not a rope wizard but have seen things.)

    That loop up over your shoulder will make you use the stronger leg muscles and not just your arms. Don't get tangled up and make sure you can just turn and bail-out.... the loop should just come off your shoulder by itself if done correctly.

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